Hornby cancel Titfield Thunderbolt

[Fireline]

15 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Remember what they did when Hattons announced their DJM 'King' project - Hornby were showing their development engineering drawings for their own re-tooled 'King' within about 48 hours (if not sooner).  On the other hand they did play it very quietly over their (formerly Oxford's) new Terrier but then the situation was rather different from what has taken place over Titfield

 

It might be interesting to check whether a certain person had returned to Hornby at the time of the King announcement. He was definitely there during the Terrier process. Hornby used to announce things here and there, and keep us interested all year. However, that person has been quoted (on the Terrier issue) as saying that he likes surprises. Not sure he will have liked the one SC gave him....

[Phil Parker]

10 minutes ago, ellocoloco said:

If I was after a model of Lion - which isn't very high on my list - I would have no interest in one based on an ancient film. The Hornby 1930s selection looks a much more useful selection to any modeller than the upcoming Rapido set. So many of us strive for realism in our models and are as likely to have a fictional film engine on our layouts as we are to have a Thomas model. 

It would also seem likely that Hornby will be first to market with Lion. May the best model win!

 

It's not a fictional engine, but if you dig back through this and the Rapido threads, you'll find out just how the prototype has been fiddled with over the years. Both companies, as far as we can tell, have modeled the loco as it was in the film.

[CUCKOO LINE]

Rapido are doing Lion in 1930s and 1980s condition.

[Dunsignalling]

20 minutes ago, ellocoloco said:

If I was after a model of Lion - which isn't very high on my list - I would have no interest in one based on an ancient film. The Hornby 1930s selection looks a much more useful selection to any modeller than the upcoming Rapido set. So many of us strive for realism in our models and are as likely to have a fictional film engine on our layouts as we are to have a Thomas model. 

It would also seem likely that Hornby will be first to market with Lion. May the best model win!

I have no interest in the loco in either guise, but Rapido will be producing other items connected with the film version that do interest me.

 

Hornby's accompanying coaches are models of the approximated 1930s replicas of 1830s L&M originals, for which I have no use.

 

John

Edited July 7, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[ellocoloco]

9 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It's not a fictional engine.

Titfield Thunderbolt exists in a film and was played by Lion, much in the same way as CP 9777 played AWVR 777 in Unstoppable.

Edited July 7, 2022 by ellocoloco
punctuation

[PaulRhB]

1 hour ago, Jenny Emily said:

The thought occurs that perhaps Hornby were well advanced with their Lion when they discovered they couldn’t get the rights. Perhaps their plan had been to announce the model pretty much at the point it was being released. The blacked out box art might suggest they are hiding the advancement of their model until it is ready for release. 

Or throwing everything at it to try and overtake? 😉 If they were that advanced they would have shown teasers on YouTube to try and grab orders on previous form. We haven’t seen cad let alone tooling samples. 
 

Anyway it’s not the model that’s the issue, many have pointed out from the start that Lion was fair game and only Thunderbolt was the legal issue. Lion just looks like desperately trying to use the name to beat the competition continuing on from the terrier, 66 and 91. Hornby could do with sorting out the quality though first as demonstrated by the partial revising of the APT they’ve announced and the 91 is desperately in need of similar attention for the bogies. 
 

1 hour ago, ellocoloco said:

- I would have no interest in one based on an ancient film.
 

A film well known to many on here, and a lot less ancient than the loco 😆

 

1 hour ago, ellocoloco said:

The Hornby 1930s selection looks a much more useful selection to any modeller than the upcoming Rapido set.
 

Er, Rapido are doing specific 1930 & 1980 versions of Lion, which is more accurate than the Hornby ‘selection’ 😉

https://rapidotrains.co.uk/liverpool-and-manchester-railway-lion/

 

 

 

1 hour ago, ellocoloco said:

So many of us strive for realism in our models and are as likely to have a fictional film engine on our layouts as we are to have a Thomas model. 

Ok but many do like fictional ones because they like the tv show or film and are you going to run a model of Lion on a 80’s or 30’s layout in a scale representation of the celebrations it ran for? 
It sounds like you aren’t interested and that’s fine, some of us are just as likely to want a GT3 but still pleased to see a manufacturer cater for those who do. Each to their own interests so no need to look down on others choices because they aren’t your choice. 
 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by PaulRhB

[Matt C]

38 minutes ago, Matt C said:

 

Do you not understand ? Thats what you are buying Guv ! An empty box guv !  R@re !  Exact replica of an empty box, the non existent contents depicting the stock we don't have and cant supply. We will also be launching an empty box for all those other 2019/20/21/22 Items we launched but can't supply to our retailers. This range of empty boxes will build into a nice display on your shelves of what you wished you had 🤓

 

 

Further to the above we are proud to announce we are a 'None in' Stockist of the New Hornby Duped us Lo range of empty boxes ! Come in and see our empty shelves in the Hornby section ( Down the stairs, turn right, In the Crapper, on the little shelf by the Pan, next to the manky Toilet brush) Now Sir/ Madam how about a nice Accurascale Deltic with a nice rake of Bachmann carriages to pull ?

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, ellocoloco said:

If I was after a model of Lion - which isn't very high on my list - I would have no interest in one based on an ancient film. The Hornby 1930s selection looks a much more useful selection to any modeller than the upcoming Rapido set. So many of us strive for realism in our models and are as likely to have a fictional film engine on our layouts as we are to have a Thomas model. 

It would also seem likely that Hornby will be first to market with Lion. May the best model win!

It really depends on what you want.  If you are one of what I suspect is a diminishing number of R number collectors you will inevitably buy one, in fact they'll buy all the different packagings.  If you've got a Hornby Rocket the Hornby's promotional material will no doubt tell you that the two go together like bacon & eggs rather than the more accurate situation that in time frame terms they go together like black pudding and crushed avocado (assuming 'Lion' will be in 1930s condition).   But, as Hornby's fan feeds indicate some folk haven't got the first idea and will buy because it looks different - assuming they can afford it.

 

If you are a fan of 'The Titfield Thunderbolt' film - which many of us of a certain age knew and loved when it was first released and which many others have seen on tv   - that is a powerful incentive to buy the Rapido model because that is what it portrays.  The era you model can be irrelevant in both cases but at least Rapido's model has one big advantage because while 'feel good' purchases will never necessarily sit easily with your normal modelling era/location Rapido's will accurately sit very easily in a period which some folk do model.  It can accurately run alongside numerous ex GWR items.  That is something which - if they happen to care (most won't) - Hornby buyers won't be able to do.

 

Simple really - Hornby missed the boat and then tried to muscle-in on the very shaky ground of 'semantics' and paid the price and eventually had to eat their humble pie in public.  To be honest I'm glad to see that their recent arrogance has had a public kicking although I doubt that it will change their ways. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by The Stationmaster
Correct typos - I hope!

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, ellocoloco said:

So many of us strive for realism in our models and are as likely to have a fictional film engine on our layouts as we are to have a Thomas model. 

 

The profits generated from the sale of stuff you don't want pays for the ability to make stuff you do want. The hobby is a very broad church and I'd say those of use who are the the realistic end of the hobby are in the minority.

[Legend]

I bought Rocket in the Tri-ang presentation box mainly for the nostalgia factor .  Given its fragility and these blasted couplings the train is now an expensive ornament in my bookcase .  Really on reflection I shouldn't have bought it .  But I wonder without this nostalgia factor just how popular this model would have been ?  For the general public many will have heard of Rocket but I bet few have heard of Lion .  So I really wonder how successful the Hornby Lion will be  given that there will be a very well detailed version  that will cater for enthusiasts coming from Rapido. Many already have it on order .

 

So to me Hornby proceeding with Lion is just bloody mindedness .  While I can see they probably intended a model of Lion as a follow onto Rocket , I don't think they are well advanced . As others have said, you would have been seeing CADs by now .  So if it wasn't for bloody mindedness I would call time on it and go and make something else instead .  Admit they've been beaten to it 

[RichardT]

36 minutes ago, Legend said:

For the general public many will have heard of Rocket but I bet few have heard of Lion .

Why Hornby didn’t just let this all die down and produce “Lion” as a tie-in to the 2030 L&MR bi-centenary I don’t know, when its public profile will be much raised.  A 2030 anniversary tie-in could be released several years beforehand as the build-up to the anniversary starts (see current build-up to the 2025 S&DR event), by which time Rapido will have sold out of their Titfield anniversary tie-in. Doubt Rapido would be interested in a re-run then, and a numbered limited edition souvenir “Lion” plus coaches for 2030 would appeal to a different audience (including all these people we’re told about who’ve only heard of Hornby).

 

But perhaps Hornby aren’t certain that they’re going to be around by 2028-30?!

 

Richard

Edited July 7, 2022 by RichardT
Typos

[Phil Parker]

12 minutes ago, RichardT said:

Why Hornby didn’t just let this all die down and produce “Lion” as a tie-in to the 2030 L&MR bi-centenary I don’t know, when its public profile will be much raised.  A 2030 anniversary tie-in could be released several years beforehand as the build-up to the anniversary starts (see current build-up to the 2025 S&DR event), by which time Rapido will have sold out of their Titfield anniversary tie-in. Doubt Rapido would be interested in a re-run then, and a numbered limited edition souvenir “Lion” plus coaches for 2030 would appeal to a different audience (including all these people we’re told about who’ve only heard of Hornby).

 

But perhaps Hornby aren’t certain that they’re going to be around by 2028-30?!

 

Richard

 

Is the L&MR bi-centenary really going to be a massive public event? Railway enthusiasts might be interested, but they are just as likely to know the Titfield film. I'll be honest and say I've not noticed much S&DR noise yet.

[Dunsignalling]

54 minutes ago, Legend said:

I bought Rocket in the Tri-ang presentation box mainly for the nostalgia factor .  Given its fragility and these blasted couplings the train is now an expensive ornament in my bookcase .  Really on reflection I shouldn't have bought it .  But I wonder without this nostalgia factor just how popular this model would have been ?  For the general public many will have heard of Rocket but I bet few have heard of Lion .  So I really wonder how successful the Hornby Lion will be  given that there will be a very well detailed version  that will cater for enthusiasts coming from Rapido. Many already have it on order .

 

So to me Hornby proceeding with Lion is just bloody mindedness .  While I can see they probably intended a model of Lion as a follow onto Rocket , I don't think they are well advanced . As others have said, you would have been seeing CADs by now .  So if it wasn't for bloody mindedness I would call time on it and go and make something else instead .  Admit they've been beaten to it 

It seems likely that they are actually "cutting their nose off to spite their face" by deferring at least one potential "something else" in favour of attempting to rush their Lion out ahead of Rapido's.

 

Somebody in Margate really needs to get a grip and damp down the combative tendencies we've seen before in favour of some pragmatic decision-making!

 

John

Edited July 7, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[deepfat]

I am a proud supporter of Rapido, KR models, Rails  & Hattons as they are creating interesting non mainstream stuff and clearly understand their audiences - model engineers with a sense of fun.  Hornby could so easily fix things by listening to us and coming with their own ideas & not copying, e.g.  I have  order the Hornby the new Prince of Wales P2, but I am getting the Hattons Genesis coaches not the Hornby clones    

[PaulRhB]

31 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Somebody in Margate really needs to get a grip and damp down the combative tendencies we've seen before in favour of some 

models that don’t need fixing or modifying straight out of the box  .  .  .  and sometimes before they leave the box. 😉
 

If they want us to think they’re the best brand then they need to get the product at least as good as the competition, particularly mechanically.

[PaulRhB]

17 minutes ago, deepfat said:

and coming with their own ideas & not copying, e.g. 

Exactly! Stop the playground bully tactics and create more exquisite little gems like the Peckett. Original and a really top quality product. 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Legend said:

For the general public many will have heard of Rocket but I bet few have heard of Lion .

My mother grew up in a street only a couple of miles from Killingworth Colliery and named Rocket Way - so she and my grandparents were fully aware of the historic loco, even though they had no interest whatever in railways.

[eastwestdivide]

3 hours ago, Matt C said:

Down the stairs, turn right, In the Crapper, on the little shelf by the Pan, next to the manky Toilet brush

You forgot to mention the "Beware of the Leopard" sign!

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Legend said:

I bought Rocket in the Tri-ang presentation box mainly for the nostalgia factor .  Given its fragility and these blasted couplings the train is now an expensive ornament in my bookcase .  Really on reflection I shouldn't have bought it .  But I wonder without this nostalgia factor just how popular this model would have been ?  For the general public many will have heard of Rocket but I bet few have heard of Lion .  So I really wonder how successful the Hornby Lion will be  given that there will be a very well detailed version  that will cater for enthusiasts coming from Rapido. Many already have it on order .

 

So to me Hornby proceeding with Lion is just bloody mindedness .  While I can see they probably intended a model of Lion as a follow onto Rocket , I don't think they are well advanced . As others have said, you would have been seeing CADs by now .  So if it wasn't for bloody mindedness I would call time on it and go and make something else instead .  Admit they've been beaten to it 

 

That thing prominently displayed in The Museum Of Liverpool that gets about five million visitors a year you mean? Which is probably higher than the visitor number for the NRM. Certainly much higher than Locomotion.

 

No. No one knows it exists....

 

 

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/museum-of-liverpool

 

You physically can't miss it!

 

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/collections/museum-of-liverpool-collections/land-transport

 

 

Jason

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

post by Hornby on Facebook from 2 days ago.

 

Which was why this topic was started. Keep up.

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

I seem to remember that Hornby initially announced just Lion as Lion — with Simon Kohler claiming it was being announced because the information had "leaked out", so how about a year later — knowing that Rapido had the rights to the Titfield Thunderbolt — they then went ahead beggars belief.

 

Perhaps somebody said "let's introduce TT" and was misinterpreted? :-)

 

[Pmorgancym]

So did Lion get beyond vapour ware and some 'Trains on Film' Box art?  (A shame to.an extent it's quite a nice concept).

Also this does leave Rapido open to a follow upset with a 14xx surely?  It's a strange ommision from the release and a massive kick in the goolies to Hornby...

[Dunsignalling]

19 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

So did Lion get beyond vapour ware and some 'Trains on Film' Box art?  (A shame to.an extent it's quite a nice concept).

Also this does leave Rapido open to a follow upset with a 14xx surely?  It's a strange ommision from the release and a massive kick in the goolies to Hornby...

 

FWIW, I don't think Rapido has a 14xx in their immediate plans, but if they did, It's a safe bet they wouldn't be saying a dicky bird until the container was on UK soil....

 

John

Edited July 8, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Aire Head]

17 minutes ago, Pmorgancym said:

So did Lion get beyond vapour ware and some 'Trains on Film' Box art?  (A shame to.an extent it's quite a nice concept).

Also this does leave Rapido open to a follow upset with a 14xx surely?  It's a strange ommision from the release and a massive kick in the goolies to Hornby...

 

Lion is still being released by Hornby as part of a train pack with 3 coaches.

 

 

 

Regards the 14xx that was done recently by DJ Models and could possibly reappear through EFE.

 

 

[AY Mod]

10 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

14xx that was done recently by DJ Models and could possibly reappear through EFE

 

Extremely unlikely; it was a commission for Hattons.