Big Bertha

[Fair Oak Junction]

All the years I've loved Bertha and I didn't even know that wonderful song existed, I should be ashamed.

Edited December 3, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Yarravalleymodeller]

On 16/11/2022 at 21:58, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Agree; ability to negotiate R2 is something of an industry standard for 00 RTR; offering a RTR model that couldn't would be to offer something that was not of "merchantable quality":

 

 

Merchantable quality means it does what it says on the tin, if the tin says minimum 3rd radius, and it does that, its merchantable quality. 

 

If you buy it, say oh no it doesn't run on 2nd radius, that's on you. 

 

Industry standards are very not a thing you can invoke as there are no codified industry standards in this regard, pretty sure what constitutes a 2nd radius is up for debate. Certianly a second radius of what profile track is, and negatiate a 2nd radius at what speed? 

 

Think someone's announced a model you want and you need to upgrade the layout for it. They don't need to downgrade the model for you. 

[Compound2632]

47 minutes ago, Yarravalleymodeller said:

Industry standards are very not a thing you can invoke as there are no codified industry standards in this regard, pretty sure what constitutes a 2nd radius is up for debate.

 

I think one can pretty well invoke "from time immemorial" here. The "2nd radius" of today goes back to Triang System 4 geometry, dating from 1962, so has been current for 60 years.

[Yarravalleymodeller]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think one can pretty well invoke "from time immemorial" here. The "2nd radius" of today goes back to Triang System 4 geometry, dating from 1962, so has been current for 60 years.

Ah, having left the small island though it's by no means a standardised thing. 

 

If they want to "make something that half the market can't run" well that's just their bag, if other manufacturers did it they'd probably get accolades for the accuracy, if they go with a flangeless wheel they'll get canned for the flangeless wheel and whatever else needs done to get it around the curve(remember the foaming rage over the hush hush wheel set). You can't win em all and there's no point trying, so they've decided to do what they want. 

[5Dublo2]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I think one can pretty well invoke "from time immemorial" here. The "2nd radius" of today goes back to Triang System 4 geometry, dating from 1962, so has been current for 60 years.

I believe Hornby Dublo (3-Rail) Large Radius is the same as 2nd Radius so it goes back a bit more than that

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by 5Dublo2

[Dublodad]

Hornby Dublo large radius curves are indeed 17.25 inch radius and standard radius 15 inch radius, dating back to 1938.

Dublo geometry is all based on the 15 inch radius circle.

BTW was anyone aware that 18000 needed 3rd radius before it was delivered, it will just about manage 18 inch curves !!!

[cctransuk]

48 minutes ago, Dublodad said:

Hornby Dublo large radius curves are indeed 17.25 inch radius and standard radius 15 inch radius, dating back to 1938.

Dublo geometry is all based on the 15 inch radius circle.

BTW was anyone aware that 18000 needed 3rd radius before it was delivered, it will just about manage 18 inch curves !!!

 

If you look for one of my posts in the 18000 thread, you will find instructions for making the model a little more adaptable to sharper radii, with no visible alterations.

 

CJI.

[AlfaZagato]

Just caught up on this thread.   Kind of happy to see this isn't the woe and yearning over Gooch gear.

 

 

Has this reached EP yet?  Are the CADs the limit of visuals?

[melmerby]

 

On 04/12/2022 at 14:42, Dublodad said:

Hornby Dublo large radius curves are indeed 17.25 inch radius and standard radius 15 inch radius, dating back to 1938.

Dublo geometry is all based on the 15 inch radius circle.

BTW was anyone aware that 18000 needed 3rd radius before it was delivered, it will just about manage 18 inch curves !!!

Series 4 Triang, Series 3 Triang & "Standard " Triang track are all more or less the same with 17.125"/17.25" large radius

[Pre Grouping fan]

14 hours ago, AlfaZagato said:

Just caught up on this thread.   Kind of happy to see this isn't the woe and yearning over Gooch gear.

 

 

Has this reached EP yet?  Are the CADs the limit of visuals?

 

Only the CADs have been seen so far.

[Fair Oak Junction]

Small update on Bertha in today's KR newsletter email, but one which does nothing to alleviate accuracy concerns. Tooling has started, but at no point have we seen either an updated CAD or any acknowledgement from KR regarding the glaring issues the first CAD had. If the first CAD is what has gone for tooling then I'm glad I didn't pre-order one! This is why it's hard to have any faith in them.

[GWR-fan]

You can lead a horse to water.........................................................

[E100]

Has to be said that delivery schedule looks extremely ambitious. 5 newly tooled products in a single quarter is a heck of lot. That being said the there's been a fair bit of time between the early CAD and now so there will have been opportunities to change things, just a question of if they have been taken. As ever the proof will be in the product.

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, E100 said:

Has to be said that delivery schedule looks extremely ambitious. 5 newly tooled products in a single quarter is a heck of lot. That being said the there's been a fair bit of time between the early CAD and now so there will have been opportunities to change things, just a question of if they have been taken. As ever the proof will be in the product.

The third quarter is July - August - September.  Port - io - port shipping Chine to the an English port is c.30 days and before production can start the painted samples have to be received and approved then, after any adjustments are made. the production samples (if KR go in for such things, will also need to be approved.  

 

So all of that. plus the production run itself, has to be completed in June and July (and at worst n by no later than early August in order to get the goods packed and containerised ready to get to theh port in order to get to Britain before the end of September.  The two British outline models due to start production (now?) ought to make it assuming there are no problems.

 

But for the others things do sound  somewhere between 'a trifle optimistic but it might make it' (DHP1) and a rather more extreme comment in respect of Bog Bertha which has only just started tooling!

[Garethp8873]

As I have said with the GWR MICA, I say it with Bertha too... I will sit on the sidelines and observe.

[Fair Oak Junction]

KR have posted the render (NOT a physical prototype) of Bertha in MR Black on their Facebook page and mentioned tooling is under way with a delivery estimate of end of 2024.

No view of the reverser on the other side, but glad to see they have got the correct double safety valves. Fingers crossed the later versions have the correct late double valves.

[Michael Hodgson]

The front coupling looks rather far forward in that view.  

 

I have a kit-built version of this loco, and so that I could drop the banker at the top of an incline but didn't buffer lock, I fitted an old Triang-style big tension lock with its coupling hook removed, and covered over with a D-shaped piece of brass so that it didn't couple.

 

Sorry if this has been covered already somewhere in this long thread.  The tender sides were cut down in 1922 to improve visibility when running tender first back down the hill.  It never normally strayed far from its home shed, so there was no need for a high stack of coal.  So it had the low sided tender for the most of its life - will the post-grouping versions of the model feature the correct sides?

[Fair Oak Junction]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

The front coupling looks rather far forward in that view.  

 

I have a kit-built version of this loco, and so that I could drop the banker at the top of an incline but didn't buffer lock, I fitted an old Triang-style big tension lock with its coupling hook removed, and covered over with a D-shaped piece of brass so that it didn't couple.

 

Sorry if this has been covered already somewhere in this long thread.  The tender sides were cut down in 1922 to improve visibility when running tender first back down the hill.  It never normally strayed far from its home shed, so there was no need for a high stack of coal.  So it had the low sided tender for the most of its life - will the post-grouping versions of the model feature the correct sides?

 

Yes it has been confirmed both tender side types will be done.

 

Also others asked on Facebook about the coupling, and KR said that is just on the renders. The real ones will apparently not sit so far forward 👍

Edited June 22, 2023 by Obsidian Quarry

[melmerby]

The headlight looks a little strange as do the 4 safety valves

Edited June 22, 2023 by melmerby

[Compound2632]

13 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The headlight looks a little strange as do the 4 safety valves

 

Strange in fact, or strange on the renders? On the latter, the headlight possibly looks a bit weedy or at least lacking in detail.

[Michael Hodgson]

44 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The headlight looks a little strange

 

Fitted as I understand it to help see what you were buffering up to at night.  Would it havebeen used only for this and then swtiched off, or would it have been left on all the way up the Lickey?  I've only ever seen trains banked by daylight.

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I've only ever seen trains banked by daylight.

 

Not much night-time photography, back in the day, but here's a posed official:

 

 

[Embedded link to DY11753, at the Derby Registers pages of the Midland Railway Society website.]

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Strange in fact, or strange on the renders? On the latter, the headlight possibly looks a bit weedy or at least lacking in detail.

On the render.

The headlight looks rather undernourished and the valves look rather crowded.

Anyway it's not even a 3D print, so a long way to go yet.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Fitted as I understand it to help see what you were buffering up to at night.  Would it havebeen used only for this and then swtiched off, or would it have been left on all the way up the Lickey?  I've only ever seen trains banked by daylight.

Apparently, often it wasn't even turned on, to stop the train crew knowing that they had got "The big un" and then not doing their share of the work up the incline.

Was rescued when Bertha was withdrawn and moved to 92079.

Edited June 22, 2023 by melmerby

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Was rescued when Bertha was scrapped and moved to 92079.

 

Transferred, when 58100 was withdrawn. As is I think well-known, 58100 wasn't scrapped immediately and even when a start was made, it was partly re-assembled for a Derby Works open day.

Edited June 22, 2023 by Compound2632