Big Bertha

[Michael Hodgson]

44 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

A crimson lake Lickey Banker would make rather a handsome mantelpiece ornament.

Pretty no doubt, but I'm rather glad I don't have a mantelpiece sloping at 1 in 38.

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Pretty no doubt, but I'm rather glad I don't have a mantelpiece sloping at 1 in 38.

 

Doh. Put a wedge under one end of the display case!

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Mike Harvey said:

They could borrow the artwork from SNCF to get the ball rolling.

 

 

 

Good to see the French copying Northern Rail livery.....

 

 

 

Jason

[Lewi73050]

But there are other variations that haven't been clarified yet.

Will MR Black 2290 include the headlamp? Or the originally high tender sides?

[multivac]

Surely in a certain red and another in a certain bluish purple? Yummy

Edited October 24, 2022 by multivac

[Tramshed]

On 22/10/2022 at 21:30, Lewi73050 said:

Interesting to see MR Black has now been added as a livery option. But MR crimson remains. Is there any record of Bertha being in crimson at any time?

Welcome news re MR Black option but only available as DCC fitted or DCC sound. MR Black in DCC ready appears not to be an option. Maybe a website glitch of some kind. Will keep checking.

[Tramshed]

On 24/10/2022 at 20:54, Tramshed said:

Welcome news re MR Black option but only available as DCC fitted or DCC sound. MR Black in DCC ready appears not to be an option. Maybe a website glitch of some kind. Will keep checking.

Whatever glitch has now been fixed for those interested. All livery options available in DCC ready

[Fair Oak Junction]

A friend of mine has had it confirmed to them via an email to KR that indeed both original and cut-down tender types are being modelled.

What with that and the website clarification of liveries it's pleasing to see the project seems to be going in the right direction.

[Zunnan]

35 minutes ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

A friend of mine has had it confirmed to them via an email to KR that indeed both original and cut-down tender types are being modelled.

What with that and the website clarification of liveries it's pleasing to see the project seems to be going in the right direction.

 

Thats one of the most visual variations covered which hopefully is borne out on the model, even if it is one of the more short lived versions. As the tender was cut in 1922 high sided is only really suited for Midland livery.

 

I suppose we'll know more following Warley regarding their thoughts on the other more visual modifications such as the reversing gear, safety valves and washout plugs as this can be clarified directly from the horses mouth so to speak. I think they could do it with two boiler configurations and cover just about everything ~ Ramsbottoms with original washout plugs for boiler 1 or Ross pops with the second boilers washout plugs. That way there is a definite MR and BR condition provided, and the absence (pre-1938) or presence (post 1938) of mechanical reversing linkage on a BR boiler is pretty easy with an etching to date the locomotive in LMS condition.

[Colin_McLeod]

2 hours ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

A friend of mine has had it confirmed to them via an email to KR that indeed both original and cut-down tender types are being modelled.

What with that and the website clarification of liveries it's pleasing to see the project seems to be going in the right direction.

 

Lucky friend.

I just got the usual curt response.

This is my exchange of e mails on Monday

 

Hi Keith

 

I am delighted that Big Bertha will now be available in MR black livery.

Will MR Black 2290 include the headlamp? Or the originally high tender sides?

Looking forward to this model.

Best wishes

 

Colin

 

Hi Colin,

Which tender are you talking about?

Kind Regards

 

Keith Revell

Managing Director

KR Models Ltd

 

Hi Keith

 

This locomotive as built had a high sided tender. In operation this caused difficulties when it was being coaled.  The sides of the tender were subsequently cut down to avoid these problems. I think it was the LMS that did this modification.

 

I attach pictures showing the MR and LMS arrangements. 

 

It was the same tender throughout, but it was modified by cutting the sides to a lower height.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards

Colin

 

Thanks

 

Kind Regards

 

Keith Revell

Managing Director

KR Models Ltd

 

Still, it's good to know that MR black with high sided tender is one of the options.  However no answer about the headlight though.

[Fair Oak Junction]

That is a shame your email exchange wasn't helpful. Hopefully the headlamp question can be answered Warley.

If I was going I would ask it myself but fingers crossed another follower of this thread can enquire and let us know.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Compound2632]

The generator and headlamp were ordered in July 1920 but possibly not fitted until December of that year - a set of official photos shewing it were entered in the register on 13 December 1920; they show snow on the ground:

 

 

[DY 11749, embedded link to Derby Registers.]

 

There is a particularly atmospheric one, reminiscent of O. Winston Link's finest, demonstrating the headlight in action:

 

 

[DY 11753, embedded link to Derby Registers.]

 

If I was that brake van, I'd be terrified!

 

So for a model in Midland livery, the possibilities are:

 

Dec 1919 - works grey

Jan - Nov 1920 - standard Midland goods black

Dec 1920 - July 1921 - as previous, with headlamp

July / Aug 1921 - as previous, fitted for oil burning

Sept 1921 - c. Aug 1925? - as Dec 1920 - July 1921

In or shortly after Aug 1925, the tender side sheets were cut down but evidently large numerals were remained on the tender, as the second LMS livery was still some years away. What seems to be unknown is whether or when the Midland coat of arms on the cab side sheets was replaced by the LMS cartouche.

 

Looking again through Summerson, I note that he has a photo taken on 24 May 1939 at Gloucester shed, when the banker was there for repairs. So that extends the range over which it can legitimately be seen running, at least as long as Gloucester continued to do light repairs - not sure off-hand when that ceased.

[GWR-fan]

Quote:

          

"So for a model in Midland livery, the possibilities are:

 

Dec 1919 - works grey

Jan - Nov 1920 - standard Midland goods black

Dec 1920 - July 1921 - as previous, with headlamp

July / Aug 1921 - as previous, fitted for oil burning

Sept 1921 - c. Aug 1925? - as Dec 1920 - July 1921

In or shortly after Aug 1925, the tender side sheets were cut down but evidently large numerals were remained on the tender, as the second LMS livery was still some years away. What seems to be unknown is whether or when the Midland coat of arms on the cab side sheets was replaced by the LMS cartouche."

 

 

How are they going to get all these variations on the one model?  Are we in for a "Big Berthastein"?   The Fell and Big Bertha were two locomotives that were on my want list.    We know what happened to the Fell.   Let us hope that there is a little communication on this model and not a seeming media blackout as on the Fell.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

How are they going to get all these variations on the one model?  

 

I don't think they either need or should want to. 

[Colin_McLeod]

Was the headlight used for buffering up only?  I presume that when buffered up, the headlight had served its purpose for that journey and could be turned off.

[cctransuk]

22 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I don't think they either need or should want to. 

 

It seems to be a recent phenomenon, but there is now an expectation that, when a new tooling is announced, it MUST incorporate slides that permit EVERY possible variant of the prototype to be produced.

 

WHY???

 

Not very long ago, we would look at what was being offered and, probably, think - "Right, I'd have preferred the *** version. Whatever - change the chimney and remove the LH lubricator and we're there; much easier than building a kit"!

 

Nowadays, it's " What??? - the copy of the 'Daily Slander' in front of the second man has the wrong date on it for my timescale"!!!

 

What does the 'M' in RMweb stand for? Certainly not 'Modelling', apparently!

 

CJI.

[Graham_Muz]

12 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

It seems to be a recent phenomenon, but there is now an expectation that, when a new tooling is announced, it MUST incorporate slides that permit EVERY possible variant of the prototype to be produced.

 

WHY???

 

Not very long ago, we would look at what was being offered and, probably, think - "Right, I'd have preferred the *** version. Whatever - change the chimney and remove the LH lubricator and we're there; much easier than building a kit"!

 

Nowadays, it's " What??? - the copy of the 'Daily Slander' in front of the second man has the wrong date on it for my timescale"!!!

 

What does the 'M' in RMweb stand for? Certainly not 'Modelling', apparently!

 

CJI.

I do certainly agree with you that there are many reasons why any manufacturer might not or not want to include tooling for every possible variation.
The issue here is more of potential customers, whilst being asked to pay up front, not knowing what actual (or even prototypical) variations are actually  being produced.

Made worse by options with limited information, ie just livery, being changed on the hoof, demonstrating a possible (reoccurring) lack of initial research (eg their "which tender" reply).

Edited October 30, 2022 by Graham_Muz

[Michael Hodgson]

13 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

Was the headlight used for buffering up only?  I presume that when buffered up, the headlight had served its purpose for that journey and could be turned off.

Interesting thought.  Because of the risk of train and banker separating, I would have thought it dangerous to turn off the headlight where loose banking was the norm, but it should be OK where they were coupled.  Practice varied between different inclines, loose being the rule on the the Lickey.

 

Probably not much of a problem where inclines were so steep that trains struggled, but it was important for signalmen to be able to see the banker(s) in order not the give Train Out of Section untill everything has arrived.

[Colin_McLeod]

2 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

it was important for signalmen to be able to see the banker(s) in order not the give Train Out of Section untill everything has arrived.

 

Good point.  Headlight probably remained on then.

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

Good point.  Headlight probably remained on then.

I would expect there to have been explicit instructions in the Sectional Appendix and the box instructions

[Bluebell Model Railway]

This was posted up a little while ago via Facebook page.

The text that accompanies the post reads:
"Update on the CAD's for Big Bertha. The front light will be on all models. We will also be installing speakers for future upgrades to the DCC ready versions. As you can see we will be making the early original high-sided tender, then the low later tender."

Edited November 10, 2022 by Bluebell Model Railway

[Zunnan]

Its good to see a bit of CAD for this one, though I'd like to see the other side too to see their intentions with the reverser. The safety valve situation could do with another look...If they're going to do Ramsbottoms across all versions there should be two, not one as shown.

[Fair Oak Junction]

37 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

The safety valve situation could do with another look...If they're going to do Ramsbottoms across all versions there should be two, not one as shown.

 

Agreed. It took me a while to notice but then it hit me, the lack of parallel safety valves.

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[RedgateModels]

9 hours ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

 

Agreed. It took me a while to notice but then it hit me, the lack of parallel safety valves.

 

 

I've linked this post onto their Facebook entry. Someone else has already brought up the safety valves too 

[Fair Oak Junction]

3 hours ago, RedgateModels said:

 

I've linked this post onto their Facebook entry. Someone else has already brought up the safety valves too 

 

Excellent, thanks. Hopefully it's been noticed early enough that they can rectify it easily 🤞

Other than that the CADs do look good, and despite the loco in the image having flanged centre wheels I did see mentioned in the FB comments the finished model wont.

 

Edit: Image added for confirmation.

Edited November 11, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry