Big Bertha

[Colin_McLeod]

On 11/11/2022 at 11:17, Obsidian Quarry said:

Hopefully it's been noticed early enough that they can rectify it easily

 

And hopefully they will rectify it.

[Steamport Southport]

On 11/11/2022 at 11:17, Obsidian Quarry said:

 

Excellent, thanks. Hopefully it's been noticed early enough that they can rectify it easily 🤞

Other than that the CADs do look good, and despite the loco in the image having flanged centre wheels I did see mentioned in the FB comments the finished model wont.

 

Edit: Image added for confirmation.

 

Cough....

 

 

The 9F is correct, as was a few others with flangeless wheels such as the LNWR 0-8-0s.

 

The Banker was flanged. Pretty sure the WD 2-10-0s were also flanged.

 

 

Jason

[Fair Oak Junction]

Oh yes I'm well aware Bertha had a centre flange, but I was just pointing that out for the benefit of modellers who might be interested in the fact the model will not despite the CADs and might have been worried about the models ability to negotiate tight layout curves. Just trying to be helpful as I know many people on here will not have seen the FB comments.

[Colin_McLeod]

22 minutes ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

many people on here will not have seen the FB comments.

 

I am unable to find KR Models page on Facebook. Do you have a link?

 

I can find the other KR Models, but not the model railway manufacturer. 😉

[Free At Last]

https://www.facebook.com/krmodels.uk

[Fair Oak Junction]

8 minutes ago, Colin_McLeod said:

 

I am unable to find KR Models page on Facebook. Do you have a link?

 

I can find the other KR Models, but not the model railway manufacturer. 😉

 

Here you go: https://www.facebook.com/krmodels.uk/

 

Edit: Just beaten to it 😛

Edited November 14, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Colin_McLeod]

Thank you @Free At Last and @Obsidian Quarry

[Colin_McLeod]

I was unable to gain access to KR Models using my Facebook account and I ended up opening a second account to enable me to do so.  It seems KR Models must have blocked me at some point. Must have been something I said! 😀

[Graham_Muz]

2 hours ago, Colin_McLeod said:

I was unable to gain access to KR Models using my Facebook account and I ended up opening a second account to enable me to do so.  It seems KR Models must have blocked me at some point. Must have been something I said! 😀

 

Join the club....

[The Stationmaster]

Maybe ??

 

[RedgateModels]

58 minutes ago, Graham_Muz said:

 

Join the club....

 

They've still not got the hang of constructive criticism then ......

[Steamport Southport]

19 hours ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

Oh yes I'm well aware Bertha had a centre flange, but I was just pointing that out for the benefit of modellers who might be interested in the fact the model will not despite the CADs and might have been worried about the models ability to negotiate tight layout curves. Just trying to be helpful as I know many people on here will not have seen the FB comments.

 

Yes, but are we really going down the route of flangeless centre driving wheels in 2023 when I thought we had ditched all that nonsense in the '70s.

 

A DJH one can get around 30" curves (750mm for those using the metric system). That's hardly severe.

 

 

 

Jason

[Bluebell Model Railway]

2 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

 

Join the club....

I can go one better I've been blocked by Hatton's 🤣, unfortunately KR always seems resistant to changes as we both know... amazingly I haven't been Blocked yet give it time.

[Zunnan]

Seems to be par for the course. It doesn't fill one with much confidence, as it also seems they're reliant on others doing research for them.

 

In one post they asked for evidence that the right hand side of the locomotive changed at all. Though it did highlight that there is also a half height extension to the cab front as part of the mechanical reverser modification. Evidence has also been given for the safety valves. Whether they use that information to better the model on offer or not is the big question.

 

I won't be rushing to put money forward until I see the reverser arrangement and the safety valves corrected, that'll decide whether to consider relegating my DJH example or not. I wouldn't mind having a Big Bertha that can run on some of the clubs modular stuff which uses setrack as my current kitbuild won't; I've got it to just about tolerate a bit below 30" but much past that and its riding up to derail. It's all well and good saying 'do some modelling' to fix an incorrect RTR model, but unfortunately I've expended my 'm' word on this subject already. If KR can manage to get at least one version correct, I'll take it. But at the moment the CAD isn't right for any version, and after the Fell I need more convincing that it is worth it before I put any money up.

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes, but are we really going down the route of flangeless centre driving wheels in 2023 when I thought we had ditched all that nonsense in the '70s.

 

A DJH one can get around 30" curves (750mm for those using the metric system). That's hardly severe.

 

 

 

Jason

If Bachmann can provide alternative driving wheels with and without rubber tyres, surely KR can provide driving wheels with and without flanges. Without flanges, they’ll be an eyesore.

[New Haven Neil]

53 minutes ago, Bluebell Model Railway said:

I can go one better I've been blocked by Hatton's 🤣,

 

I'm amazed I wasn't, a couple of years ago - I won one of their competitions, just a draw really, and when the marketing person called me, the phone was answered by a director of one of their major competitors at the time. Laugh?  I thought I'd need CPR.  I had bought something we didn't stock......🤣

[Zunnan]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes, but are we really going down the route of flangeless centre driving wheels in 2023 when I thought we had ditched all that nonsense in the '70s.

 

A DJH one can get around 30" curves (750mm for those using the metric system). That's hardly severe.

 

 

 

Jason

 

Fleischmann can produce fully flanged 2-10-0s which negotiate 420mm radius (16.5inch, which is under second radius), and have done for decades. Its more about giving tolerance in the coupling rods and side to side of the drivers, kind of along the lines of how much slop is in the Heljan class 14. Having said that, I have Hornby 8Fs which won't negotiate the inside road on curved setrack turnouts, to be honest I think the centre axle being flangeless is a red herring.

 

Flangeless axles is a modern creature comfort in 00 apparently, just look at all the current Hornby pacifics, Hush Hush and Bachmanns V2... KR should do the leading axle as its hidden behind the whirly bits to shorten its footprint to effectively 0-8-0. (very tongue in cheek, please don't!!!)

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

Flangeless axles is a modern creature comfort in 00 apparently, just look at all the current Hornby pacifics, Hush Hush and Bachmanns V2... KR should do the leading axle as its hidden behind the whirly bits to shorten its footprint to effectively 0-8-0. (very tongue in cheek, please don't!!!)

 

All mine have flanged wheels. Wouldn't have bought them otherwise. And I believe the Bachmann V2 also has a spare one in the pack.

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/lner-v2-60845-br-lined-black-(early-emblem)/35-201sf

 

 

 

Jason

[Zunnan]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

All mine have flanged wheels. Wouldn't have bought them otherwise. And I believe the Bachmann V2 also has a spare one in the pack.

 

https://www.Bachmann.co.uk/product/lner-v2-60845-br-lined-black-(early-emblem)/35-201sf

 

 

 

Jason

 

Yes, but they do come with the caveat that it is on the owner as to whether to fit them; rather than developing a model which will negotiate a trackmat without the need for flangeless. Its a good thing that they supply the spare axles as that at least gives you the choice, in the same way its a good thing that models like the 1P and Precedent come with optional axles for traction tyres.

 

The main point though is on flangeless drivers, and on that I am in agreement with you 100%. If its prototypical (like the 9F and LNWR 0-8-0s) then flangeless is unavoidable. On something like Big Bertha? Really? Its been proven that fully flanged ten coupled can be done reliably. The Fleischmann BR94 being a nice one to start off with, or how about the BR50? Going flangeless on Big Bertha seems like a lot of a copout.

[Fair Oak Junction]

6 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Yes, but are we really going down the route of flangeless centre driving wheels in 2023 when I thought we had ditched all that nonsense in the '70s.

 

A DJH one can get around 30" curves (750mm for those using the metric system). That's hardly severe.

 

 

 

Jason

 

This feels like a case of don't shoot the messenger. I offered no opinion for or against the wheel flanges, I simply reported the facts as KR had presented them for the benefit of people who will not have seen them themselves. I have no strong feelings on the subject. As I said in my post you quoted, I'm just trying to be helpful.

[GWR-fan]

With today's demands for high quality, high fidelity models is it not time to ditch the old trainset rule of R2 compatible running?   R2 is fine for bogie models but the demand for large express and longer wheelbase steam prototype makes R2 compatibility a retrograde visit to the past.    Why do we compromise the model's running ability by designing the model to transit ridiculously tight curves?   Yes, this would limit the potential market but can we have it both ways by demanding high quality engineered masterpieces and then compromise them by altering the design for R2 curves.  Leave the trainset to the smaller locomotive market.

 

Other than very expensive commissioned models LGB still,  I believe,  stick to the R1 rule (1200 mm diameter curves)  because that is where the market is.   Years ago,  the likes of Bachmann "Spectrum",  Aristocraft and USA Trains broke with this mould and designed high quality models to run on larger diameter curves,  with 5 ft minimum diameter for diesel model prototypes and 8 ft minimum diameter for steam models.  Sticking to the R1 philosophy severely compromised the larger models running ability making very expensive models look like kid's toys when running on small diameter curves,  plus compromising running ability on straight sections due the increased sideplay on the drive axles.

 

If we want 21st century models then we need to move into the 21st century.

 

[Colin_McLeod]

Agree

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

 

This feels like a case of don't shoot the messenger. I offered no opinion for or against the wheel flanges, I simply reported the facts as KR had presented them for the benefit of people who will not have seen them themselves. I have no strong feelings on the subject. As I said in my post you quoted, I'm just trying to be helpful.

 

 

The post I quoted was the one that had the information in it. Most of us don't do Facebook.

 

How the hell am I meant to bring the subject of the missing flanges up and the quotes from the manufacturer WITHOUT quoting your post?

 

 

 🙄

 

 

Worth bearing in mind we all kept quiet with the 1361 and we ended up with Splashergate....

 

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

With today's demands for high quality, high fidelity models is it not time to ditch the old trainset rule of R2 compatible running?   R2 is fine for bogie models but the demand for large express and longer wheelbase steam prototype makes R2 compatibility a retrograde visit to the past.    Why do we compromise the model's running ability by designing the model to transit ridiculously tight curves?   Yes, this would limit the potential market but can we have it both ways by demanding high quality engineered masterpieces and then compromise them by altering the design for R2 curves.  Leave the trainset to the smaller locomotive market.

 

Other than very expensive commissioned models LGB still,  I believe,  stick to the R1 rule (1200 mm diameter curves)  because that is where the market is.   Years ago,  the likes of Bachmann "Spectrum",  Aristocraft and USA Trains broke with this mould and designed high quality models to run on larger diameter curves,  with 5 ft minimum diameter for diesel model prototypes and 8 ft minimum diameter for steam models.  Sticking to the R1 philosophy severely compromised the larger models running ability making very expensive models look like kid's toys when running on small diameter curves,  plus compromising running ability on straight sections due the increased sideplay on the drive axles.

 

If we want 21st century models then we need to move into the 21st century.

 

 

And how many are going to be bought as display models and only run occasionally (if at all)?

 

I would expect quite a few.

 

 

Jason

[farren]

What’s the point of getting in a tiss over flangeless wheels? It’s OO! It’s not to scale!