Big Bertha

[Bucoops]

You wouldn't want to get the timing of that messed up - carnage!

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

You wouldn't want to get the timing of that messed up - carnage!

 

Don't take the connecting rods off!

[Zunnan]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Don't take the connecting rods off!

 

Or raise the second axle/lower the centre axle at the wrong point of rotation. Thankfully the PW she was used over was by and large always in good shape, though I do wonder if the middle valve gear were removed for transporting to Derby to guard against any contact, especially if asked to move aside into more dubious trackage on the multiple trips she made North. It also makes you wonder about the collision damage when ran into by 47305 and whether that displaced the cylinders enough to make contact given the frame damage she suffered.

 

Always been a fan of the Big 'un. I hope they don't do the steam reverser on later LMS or BR, or mechanical reverser on MR/early LMS. Same with the differing safety valves.

 

I'll take mine in Centro livery.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Zunnan

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

Or raise the second axle/lower the centre axle at the wrong point of rotation. Thankfully the PW she was used over was by and large always in good shape, though I do wonder if the middle valve gear were removed for transporting to Derby to guard against any contact, especially if asked to move aside into more dubious trackage on the multiple trips she made North.

 

The GA I mentioned is drawn with the piston at limit of stroke, which is unhelpful on this point. However, I suspect that measurement would show that there was adequate clearance. I doubt any part of the intensively-worked main line between Derby and Bromsgrove was anything less than first class, whatever might have been the condition of the back road at Washwood Heath (Vide T. Essery, Firing Days at Saltley). there was no inside valve gear.

 

22 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

I'll take mine in Centro livery.

 

With yellow ends, of course.

[Zunnan]

I meant inside motion...the shared steam chests will have brought their own complexities. I don't half wish that those cylinder blocks survived! Given that she was briefly trialled elsewhere on mineral trains, I think the tolerances will have been more than generous enough to cope with anything a typical running line and siding should throw. I doubt a single foot of track within Derby works would be suspect either. Tight curvature and sideways tolerance would still be interesting to see with that 0-10-0 footprint, especially when routed via Whitacre prior to the construction of the more gentle route on the other side of Hams Hall. The rub marks evident on her frames at the end of her days told plenty enough by themselves! I get the feeling that the frames were less tolerant than the cranked axle.

 

I'm feeling the yellow ends, but to be true Centro I think yellow smokebox ring with a black door and silver fittings. Or maybe a yellow cab front and tender cab rear with a black bandit mask about the windows.

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

Tight curvature and sideways tolerance would still be interesting to see with that 0-10-0 footprint, especially when routed via Whitacre prior to the construction of the more gentle route on the other side of Hams Hall.

 

The Water Orton - Kingsbury fast lines had been in use for a decade by the time the Banker came along. But as a light engine going to or from Derby I dare say it might well have been routed via what had become the slow lines, through Whitacre. But I don't think there was anything terribly demanding there, anyway, even if the curvature wasn't as graceful as it had been in B&DJR days! (OS 25" revised 1923.)

Edited October 13, 2022 by Compound2632

[Zunnan]

You know, I'd always considered that alignment as result of the construction of Hams Hall A from 1927, so as being an LMS thing...so had never even considered dating that one. You learn something every day.

[Zunnan]

Back to the locomotive in question though. Given her annual checkup trek, she can at least be explained away from Bromsgrove to Blackwell within certain parameters. A good friend of mine was commissioned to make a model of Water Ortons bridge a few years back which would be a great location for her on a works visit...but I'm just waiting to see the guaranteed photos of the big 'un piloting over the Mendips with a 7F.

 

One if my usual local history sites has a nice section on Bertha. Photo by D J Norton has an interesting shot of her being laid over at Saltley in Jan 1949 with BR number and LMS still on tender; presumably painted out but still very clear indeed.

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Zunnan said:

One if my usual local history sites has a nice section on Bertha. Photo by D J Norton has an interesting shot of her being laid over at Saltley in Jan 1949 with BR number and LMS still on tender; presumably painted out but still very clear indeed.

 

That's an excellent gallery. Although Summerson and Essery & Jenkinson note the application of the BR number 58100 in early 1949, they don't mention that the tender still carried LMS!

[Zunnan]

4 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's an excellent gallery. Although Summerson and Essery & Jenkinson note the application of the BR number 58100 in early 1949, they don't mention that the tender still carried LMS!

 

For some months at least I would wager. Though clearly by March is seems to have disappeared under the filth, it can still be (just) seen in the 24th July photo banking a goods train.

[seahorse]

Of course, if it had lasted until the transfer of Bromsgrove to WR, it might have gone to Swindon for servicing and come back in lined green, and possibly with a copper-capped chimney!

 

( sorry if someone already suggested this pages back)

[Zunnan]

On 09/10/2022 at 09:22, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

Did Bertha change at all throughout its life? If not then its a simpler prototype compared to the Fell or simpler to produce compared to bellerophon which has complex valve gear. 

 

Tender height has been addressed as well as the oil firing experiments, as has the washout plug situation which changed as often as the boilers. But there are other changes that occurred not all at once, they happened over time. Subtle(ish) and yet not very subtle at all once you notice them.

 

The big one is the reversing gear. As built she had a steam reverser but this was later changed to a mechanical linkage. MR and early LMS would have no whacking great big reversing lever along the right hand side and steam gear instead.

Then there is the safety valves. Built with a pair of Ramsbottoms and mounted side by side, later changed to Ross Pop.

The chimney was also changed for a Stanier pattern.

Also changes to the front end frames following the shunt with 47305, the most obvious change being the more rounded plate with lifting eyes following repairs and carried for the last couple of years.

 

There are other modifications, but these are the period defining ones I'd look for. One of the other changes which is a certainty but details are far harder to track down...I think the steam generator for the light and its associated wiring and switchgear moved around a bit. Some later BR photos of the left side show something running down the middle of the cab side to the cab step and then back up and along the running plate, while most other photos clearly don't have this. It also pre-dates the accident damage as at least one photo shows the original front frame profile.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Zunnan

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, seahorse said:

( sorry if someone already suggested this pages back)

 

No, I think you're the first person to be rash enough to suggest such a dreadful thing.

 

In fact the WR did use a South Wales 2-8-0T for a couple of years and also 72xx 2-8-2T was tried bit it was bad for the platform edges...

Edited October 13, 2022 by Compound2632

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No, I think you're the first person to be rash enough to suggest such a dreadful thing.

 

In fact the WR did use a South Wales 2-8-0T for a couple of years and also 72xx 2-8-2T was tried bit it was bad for the platform edges...

And lots of 94XXs

In 1959 8400-8406 were all there (as well as 92079 and two jinties & a 3F 0-6-0)

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

And lots of 94XXs

In 1959 8400-8406 were all there (as well as 92079 and two jinties & a 3F 0-6-0)

 

I hadn't mentioned the 94xxs as they were evidently replacements for the Standard 3Fs, rather than for the Banker.

 

I gather this duty is now carried out by 66s.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I hadn't mentioned the 94xxs as they were evidently replacements for the Standard 3Fs, rather than for the Banker.

 

I gather this duty is now carried out by 66s.

The Western didn't seem to completely eliminate the Jinties before the end of steam at Bromsgrove, as there looks like one or two still there towards the end.

 

Not much call these days, so when any banking is required the loco is sent from Saltley (IIRC).

The crossover siding at the top is still there for any banker to go back down the the incline if needed.

[Zunnan]

51 minutes ago, melmerby said:

The Western didn't seem to completely eliminate the Jinties before the end of steam at Bromsgrove, as there looks like one or two still there towards the end.

 

Not much call these days, so when any banking is required the loco is sent from Saltley (IIRC).

The crossover siding at the top is still there for any banker to go back down the the incline if needed.

 

Is Saltley anything but a signing on point now? I did my last spotting anywhere in the country there around 2005 and even then much of it had been derelict for years, the land it once stood on is now just an extended part of EMRs scrapyard. To be honest though, by then my interest in the sanitised real world railways had reduced to pretty much zero...that last trip to Saltley killed it off and its never returned, its when I returned to modelling instead.

 

I do remember a time when Saltley played host to the banker, 58012 was one of them. I can remember 012 freshly shopped in coal sector livery too, and how unusual it was to see a freight machine kept cleaner than almost everything else on shed. It was also one of the pool called on for the Baddesley Colliery clearing trains around the same time which times this particular memory to the late '80s and early 90s.

[46256]

Returning to Bromsgrove via Water Orton

[Lewi73050]

Interesting to see MR Black has now been added as a livery option. But MR crimson remains. Is there any record of Bertha being in crimson at any time?

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, Lewi73050 said:

Is there any record of Bertha being in crimson at any time?

 

No, none at all. For the simple reason that it never was.

[Zunnan]

They are at least now listing MR Maroon as being a 'what if' livery. I'd like to see photographic grey too to be honest.

 

What interests me more though is which combination of details they are going to tool for as that will set the tone for which of the black liveries are correct. After the Fell, I think it reasonable to assume it will be a one size fits all model.

[Michael Hodgson]

Perhaps people would buy it in pink with blue polka dots?

[Colin_McLeod]

22 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Perhaps people would buy it in pink with blue polka dots?

 

[Mike Harvey]

22 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Perhaps people would buy it in pink with blue polka dots?

They could borrow the artwork from SNCF to get the ball rolling.

 

 

[Compound2632]

12 hours ago, Zunnan said:

What interests me more though is which combination of details they are going to tool for as that will set the tone for which of the black liveries are correct. After the Fell, I think it reasonable to assume it will be a one size fits all model.

 

At the very minimum, their proposed offering needs two tender variants not to appear ridiculous. For myself, I don't object to fictitious liveries being offered so long as the manufacturer is honest and makes abundantly clear that they are fictitious, as, for example, Rapido have done with their proposed Jones Goods in BR mixed traffic livery. A crimson lake Lickey Banker would make rather a handsome mantelpiece ornament.

 

We don't know what feedback KR Models have had, or from whom, but it is encouraging to see that they are responding to it.

Edited October 23, 2022 by Compound2632