Big Bertha

[Compound2632]

Close reading of Essery & Jenkinson, Midland Locomotives Vol. 4, and Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 4, reveals further subtleties. The Banker was renumbered 22290 in September 1947, with the cabside numbers hand-painted about 6" high to fit the space. Renumbering 51800 in January 1949 was done with LMS style numbers. It was on its works visit in Feb/Mar 1950 that it was repainted in mixed traffic lined black with the first BR emblem, in which condition it remained until broken up. 

 

Both agree: "always black". 

[VIA185]

Second radius curves, anyone? (The 'industry standard')

[No Decorum]

35 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

Sorry to bang on about livery but I've been told of a priceless gem on an LMS Facebook group - unfortunately I have been unable to track down the original post but I'm told the poster lists the Banker's liveries as:

 

1 works photographic grey

2 Midland Lake, crest on cab, number on tender

3 LMS black number on cab, LMS on tender

4 early BR crest,  Lined MT livery

5 late BR crest, plain black

 

Setting aside the already-exploded question of Midland lake, it's No. 5 that tickles me for its absurdity. From an internet source (!) I learn that "The first locomotive to display the new crest was BR Standard Class 7MT No. 70016 “Ariel” at Marylebone Station on 21st June 1956." - a date corroborated by Essery & Jenkinson, Midland Locomotives Vol. 1, though without this specific detail. The Banker was withdrawn from traffic in May 1956!

 

Summerson reproduces two photographs taken in this period, one with the boiler cladding removed on 3 July 1956 and the other with it put back on again for a Derby Works open day, 27 September 1956. The engine is in mixed-traffic lining with the early crest. 

 

This is the second of those two photos:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 66931.]

Don’t apologise for banging on, it’s very useful and informative. Where possible, I like to get an item like this in original form and livery. In the case of this one, if I decide to get it, it’ll have to be LMS black. People may like it in Midland red, Rail blue, Network Rail yellow or whatever and if the extra sales help make the project viable, that’s good but I won’t choose something which isn’t correct.

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, VIA185 said:

Second radius curves, anyone? (The 'industry standard')

 

Don't see why not as a 9F can be got round them. The coupled wheelbase was 20' 11" - 9" less than a 9F.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Compound2632

[E100]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Don't see why not as a 9F can be got round them. The coupled wheelbase was 20' 11" - 9" less than a 9F.

A 9F has a flangeless centre wheel. Does the banker have a flangeless centre wheel too?

[Compound2632]

19 minutes ago, E100 said:

A 9F has a flangeless centre wheel. Does the banker have a flangeless centre wheel too?

 

No. Which is not to say it isn't a dodge one might use on a model, if necessary.

[Graham_Muz]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No. Which is not to say it isn't a dodge one might use on a model, if necessary.

Don't say that it could end up with an flangeless wheelset on one side... 

[Compound2632]

Just now, Graham_Muz said:

Don't say that it could end up with an flangeless wheelset on one side... 

 

Always the side you're not looking at.

[Graham_Muz]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

Always the side you're not looking at.

Or reverser on both sides... (although that's possibly what an EP is for...) 

[Trog]

2 hours ago, VIA185 said:

Second radius curves, anyone? (The 'industry standard')

 Should that in this case be vertical curves as the pictures I have seen show a quite rapid change of gradient at the end of the bank. Although this may be due to the effect of pictures taken through a telescopic lens.

 

(If you want to give a PW Supervisor a heart attack let him look through a surveyors level at some old jointed track he is responsible for, as the dips at the joints look horrendous and a half.)

[Colin_McLeod]

There is something very attractive about the works grey livery with the number on the tender.  If that was an option I would go for it.

[No Decorum]

2 hours ago, Graham_Muz said:

Don't say that it could end up with an flangeless wheelset on one side... 

You jest but I believe that one of the Harry Potter imitation full-size “trains” has flangeless wheels on one side and double flanges on the other side.

[melmerby]

43 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

You jest but I believe that one of the Harry Potter imitation full-size “trains” has flangeless wheels on one side and double flanges on the other side.

A bit like a funicular then.

[Bucoops]

14 minutes ago, melmerby said:

A bit like a funicular then.

 

What does that spell do?

[DCB]

13 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Here it is, alongside the LNER Garratt - built some five years after the Lickey Banker, and as a banking engine, rather less successful, either on the Lickey Incline or on the Worsborough Bank for which it was designed - which goes to show that size isn't everything.

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 63018.]

 

Re the oil burning, here's a rear view:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 66922.]

 

Usual suggestions that the Gresley Garratt was not successful, Reading about it working Worsborough bank the only problem was there was only one of them.  Trains banked by the Garratt took at least five minutes less on Worsborough bank as they didn't have to stop to attach a pilot or stop to detach the pilot and then restart on a 1 in 100 (?)  as the Garratt and an 04 could just come up behind the train and drop off at the top.   The  reference to Bertha's exhaust sounding muffled makes a lot of sense as I believe she had a single valve for each pair of cylinders. Horribly constricted steam and exhaust passages should be ideal for Banking, should make violent slipping difficult.
As regards the model I think the only way to own anything remotely "Different" these days is to go freelance.

[micklner]

LNER U1 History here.

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/U/u1.php

[RedgateModels]

Hope they do spares, I'd like a headlamp for my 2-10-4 ....

 

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, DCB said:

Usual suggestions that the Gresley Garratt was not successful

 

Bear in mind that I was responding to a poster making a sizeist remark about Midland engines.

 

Tauriel: He's quite tall for a dwarf, don't you think?

Legolas: ….But no less ugly.

 

54 minutes ago, micklner said:

LNER U1 History here.

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/U/u1.php

 

Quite a tale of woe. The fireman's comments are illuminating.

[Compound2632]

3 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

Hope they do spares, I'd like a headlamp for my 2-10-4 ....

 

Now that's a serious banker! I like the choice of number.

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Now that's a serious banker! I like the choice of number.

Crikey! Someone has done an 88! 😆

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, DCB said:

The  reference to Bertha's exhaust sounding muffled makes a lot of sense as I believe she had a single valve for each pair of cylinders. Horribly constricted steam and exhaust passages

No room for valves for the inside cylinders so each valve fed the opposite inside cylinder, as well as it's own.

It also couldn't raise steam quick enough to maintain full TE for the full duration of a "Bank"

 

OS Nock (yes him!) reckoned that train crews often preferred two Jinties to the big un because of a more consistent shove.

It was however economical on coal use, being less per trip than 2x Jinties and well below that for the U1. (that was however nominally about 60% more powerful)

Edited October 11, 2022 by melmerby

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, melmerby said:

It also couldn't raise steam quick enough to maintain full TE for the full duration of a "Bank"

 

OS Nock (yes him!) reckoned that train crews often preferred two Jinties to the big un because of a more consistent shove.

It was however economical on coal use, being less per trip than 2x Jinties and well below that for the U1. (nominally about 60% more powerful)

 

I'd be interested in your references for these statements. 

[adb968008]

I’m surprised Big Bertha isnt being offered with LMS on one side and BR on the other.

I assume later runs will come with Big Betty, Big Bessie, Big Sister…

 

KR models now has more than 10 different toolings in its name, three delivered.. thats an achievement in itself.

 

A timeline to delivery of those would be useful.

Edited October 11, 2022 by adb968008

[Steamport Southport]

Were locomotives that lasted over 35 years and 30 years respectfully total failures?

 

I thought both really went due to a need for new boilers and the fact they were one offs scuppered their chances of BR spending any money on them.

 

Newer and more powerful locomotives started to diminish the need for bankers. The electrics just glide up the Lickey. You don't even notice there is an incline.

 

 

Jason

[Steamport Southport]

21 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Sorry to bang on about livery but I've been told of a priceless gem on an LMS Facebook group - unfortunately I have been unable to track down the original post but I'm told the poster lists the Banker's liveries as:

 

1 works photographic grey

2 Midland Lake, crest on cab, number on tender

3 LMS black number on cab, LMS on tender

4 early BR crest,  Lined MT livery

5 late BR crest, plain black

 

Setting aside the already-exploded question of Midland lake, it's No. 5 that tickles me for its absurdity. From an internet source (!) I learn that "The first locomotive to display the new crest was BR Standard Class 7MT No. 70016 “Ariel” at Marylebone Station on 21st June 1956." - a date corroborated by Essery & Jenkinson, Midland Locomotives Vol. 1, though without this specific detail. The Banker was withdrawn from traffic in May 1956!

 

Summerson reproduces two photographs taken in this period, one with the boiler cladding removed on 3 July 1956 and the other with it put back on again for a Derby Works open day, 27 September 1956. The engine is in mixed-traffic lining with the early crest. 

 

This is the second of those two photos:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of Midland Railway Study Centre item 66931.]

 

I think there was also LMS on cabside with number on tender. Virtually the same as the last MR livery but with the crest changed to LMS.

 

I'll have a look in the Illustrated History LMS Locomotives - Midland volume. Pretty sure it's in there.

 

 

Jason