Big Bertha

[toby_tl10]

19 minutes ago, jamieb said:

As for the fictitious liveries that seem to abound these days,Rapido being another culprit of this, a few years back any manufacturer doing this would be slated 

 

I don't see fictional liveries being an inherently bad thing, it's down to the consumers' preference. If they sell well, why not? If nobody wants them, then they know.

 

Was Hornby slated for producing a B12 in BR Express Blue back in the day?

[Fair Oak Junction]

While I'm not a huge fan of fictional or what if liveries I see no problem with a manufacturer producing odd/rare/unique classes of locos. The collectors market has been shown to be very strong and it makes money so why wouldn't manufacturers cater to it? Frankly there are more than enough everyday locos available and there is no doubt other never done before classes of everyday locos will keep appearing well into the future. It is a sad day in any hobby when there is no room for out of the ordinary items.

 

KR seem to have set their mind to specifically going after interesting prototypes, but there are plenty of other OO manufacturers making everyday locos and stock.

[jamieb]

7 minutes ago, toby_tl10 said:

I don't see fictional liveries being an inherently bad thing, it's down to the consumers' preference. If they sell well, why not? If nobody wants them, then they know.

 

Was Hornby slated for producing a B12 in BR Express Blue back in the day?

Indeed,and if people are happy to buy them ,fair enough.But the inconsistency where a model will get 10 pages of criticism for having a headlamp in the wrong place,or an incorrect buffer profile (for example) yet an APT in a fictitious livery gets plaudits is slightly disconcerting 

[Fair Oak Junction]

The Rapido APT what if liveries were a bit of April Fools Day fun because Rapido enjoy doing things like that, such as announcing the Titfield Thunderbolt range on April Fools Day.

Rapido very much have a sense of humour that clearly comes across in their product booklets, videos, social media posts, etc.

Go through the Rapido UK catalogue and look at how many of their products have fictional liveries and then compare that to KR, where seemingly every loco has a bunch.

Off the top of my head Rapido have done 3 over their whole range, whereas KR have done more than 3 on just the GT3 alone.

 

Edit: Plus this is getting rather off topic and if people feel this strongly about it probably requires it's own thread.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Compound2632]

21 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'll stick with the DJH version of Big Emma as the MR railwaymen called it.

 

I'd love to know when Big Bertha became more popular as the nickname, but looking through old books and magazines it was definitely Emma.

 

"What two letters spell perfection?"*

 

2 hours ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

Did Bertha change at all throughout its life? If not then its a simpler prototype compared to the Fell or simpler to produce compared to bellerophon which has complex valve gear. 

 

1 hour ago, Allegheny1600 said:

The tender was cut down from its original form but I don’t know when, likely early on as it was to facilitate easier coaling.

 

The most obvious change was the reduction in height of the tender sides, "shortly after August 1925". 

 

As to the origins of the tender: "The tender was ordered on 20 August 1914, three months after the engine. 'The frame to be taken from a second hand 2350 gallon tender in stock and provided with a new tank of 2,000 (sic) gallons capacity and cab similar to the tenders of the S&D mineral engines.' The Drawing Schedule suggests it came from 0-6-0 No. 2938 which was built in 1875, but when tender numbers were introduced in 1927 the tender number plate was 343 and the inscribed date 1878, so the origin is uncertain."

 

[S. Summerson, Midland Railway Locomotives Vol. 4 (Irwell Press, 2005) p. 170.]

 

Is it really necessary to say that this engine was always black?

 

*In the original, the two letters were M A but I adapt.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Compound2632

[Compound2632]

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a good selection of photos of the Lickey Banker, mostly from Midland or BR days, along with some other material including a scan of a GA drawing, which is available for download - item 12275.

[hmrspaul]

13 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

The Midland Railway Study Centre has a good selection of photos of the Lickey Banker, mostly from Midland or BR days, along with some other material including a scan of a GA drawing, which is available for download - item 12275.

.... and when you look through those photos many appear to have a black smokebox but the remainder of the loco and tender are much lighter. I have a photo in a very worn LMS livery, with number on cabside, which also appears to have a lighter colour for all but the smokebox. That cigarette card could be accurate for an LMS period of use. 

 

Paul

[Compound2632]

1 minute ago, hmrspaul said:

.... and when you look through those photos many appear to have a black smokebox but the remainder of the loco and tender are much lighter. I have a photo in a very worn LMS livery, with number on cabside, which also appears to have a lighter colour for all but the smokebox. That cigarette card could be accurate for an LMS period of use. 

 

Paul

 

It seems to have been common practice at Saltley in the 50s to buff up the smokebox - as described in Terry Essery's Saltley Firing Days and seen in many photos. It's reasonable to suppose this practice was also indulged in at Bromsgrove. In these monochrome photos, shiny looks darker than matt - and in practice the less shiny parts were grimy and off-black.

 

But not red!

[Graham_Muz]

4 minutes ago, hmrspaul said:

.... and when you look through those photos many appear to have a black smokebox but the remainder of the loco and tender are much lighter. I have a photo in a very worn LMS livery, with number on cabside, which also appears to have a lighter colour for all but the smokebox. That cigarette card could be accurate for an LMS period of use. 

 

Paul

The smokebox being matt often appears as a darker hue when compared with the rest of a black loco when looking at B&W photos due to the different way light reflects from the surface. 

[Steven Draper]

Provided authentic liveries are produced, I have objection to alternatives and what ifs being produced for those who are not over fussed or like these things. In fact had Big Emma / Bertha been preserved it is highly feasible that for a period of preservation running in a Midland Crimson inspired livery, albeit with the final tender, could have occurred. 

 

As with other comments, while all models require a degree of compromise and a need to stay with a budget, I do think it is important that all producers think very carefully here as if thinking both cheap and quality there's a risk that any model is neither.

 

As for Hornby's "big" news, those WD 0-10-0's - perfect moment given the Railway Children Film and there appearance on heritage lines.

[Free At Last]

The website has been amended and the LMS Crimson Lake is now MR.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Free At Last

[Fair Oak Junction]

Interesting, so an indication they do have two types of tender tooling maybe? Although the livery is still highly questionable whether they call it MR or LMS Crimson Lake.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[jamieb]

1 minute ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

Interesting, so an indication they do have two types of tender tooling maybe?

No, probably be a half and half job😁

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

Interesting, so an indication they do have two types of tender tooling maybe? Although the livery is still hockey whether they call it MR or LMS Crimson Lake.

 

Nah, one side of the tender has the original profile, the other is cut-down!! 😉

 

CJI.

[Fair Oak Junction]

I wouldn't be surprised! 😂

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

"What two letters spell perfection?"*

 

 

GE. But not sure on the relevance?

Edited October 9, 2022 by Bucoops

[Steamport Southport]

5 hours ago, Poor Old Bruce said:

 

Age is relative. the "old postcard" is from about 1970 and certainly not contemporary with the real thing. In BR days it was given LNWR style lining.

 

 

At one time it was said that the cylinder block would be preserved. in the early-mid 1960s it was still dumped at Derby loco Works along with the Fell's main gearbox.

 

Thank you if think something made in 1970 isn't old. It is 52 years ago!

 

But it is one of the only ways you can see a representation of it in MR livery in colour.

 

 

I now remember where I saw the article about parts of it being saved. It was in an issue of the MRTs The Wyvern magazine and would be about late 1980s. I'll see if I can find it or at least what issue it was, but don't hold your breath waiting.

 

 

Jason

[Din]

21 minutes ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

Interesting, so an indication they do have two types of tender tooling maybe? Although the livery is still highly questionable whether they call it MR or LMS Crimson Lake.

 

Isn't that just generally controversial anyway? The LNWR certainly didn't seem the happiest having to slap red on a lot of their locomotives and it seemed to fade quickly as a practise for the LMS.

 

I was at GETS yesterday and got to have a natter with Micheal a couple of times. KR Models was swarmed with happy looking punters who'd come to see the EPs of the Leader, DHP and the Shay.

 

They're working with the MR Study Centre, so it likely will have as much "accurate" data as humanly possible more directly from the source. Published books are second hand sources, somewhat, while iirc the MSC has drawings and plenty of more direct first hand materials and photographs.

Though as someone else pointed out at the show. The drawings really are not the be all and end all of a design, while it may be from the draughtsman's table there's no telling if its the "correct" or even "final" version which went out into the wild world. It's a perpetual issue for a lot of model manufacturers when you haven't got an extant example to scan. They have a set of drawings which is what they're using as the basis.

 

The more "weird and wonderful" liveries tend to be produced in smaller numbers as a bit of a novelty... and its a novelty which sells. Only 500 GT3's came out in the BR Corporate Blue and all of them sold.

 

So a Bertha in BR Railfreight Sector sounds like a good novelty to me...

[Fair Oak Junction]

If they want to produce models of it in fictional liveries I don't really care, but I'd at least want them to do the liveries it DID carry first. I feel like that is the bare minimum expectation.

Plus my biggest gripe with KR doing the loco is getting the details right in the first place on the base model. Livery errors can be fixed far easier than having to take a hacksaw to it. 😉
Edit: And I agree about the drawings, but luckily unlike some of the other locos KR have done there are plenty of photos of Bertha they can study.

Edited October 9, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, phil gollin said:

.

 

I know that the loco has "charisma" (of sorts) but I am surprised that if KR are doing a 10-coupled loco that they didn't choose a WD 2-10-0, only 10 of them but more widely travelled.

 

( Still, maybe that is what Hornby will announce tomorrow !    😁  )

 

.

 

Only 10?

150 built and BR had 25 which were all allocated to the Scottish Region. With two at the Longmoor Military Railway.

 

 

I have hopes that Bachmann will do that along with a revamp of the 2-8-0. They do have quite a lot of parts in common.

 

 

 

Jason

[Din]

As to the "rise of the different name". Could it have had something to do with the War? A number of artillery peices were named "Big Bertha" during the Great War, and the name has certainly stuck about in the general cultural lexicon, so a similar "big weapon" could've become known as such by veterans from the War who went back to train spotting?

[Fair Oak Junction]

4 minutes ago, Din said:

As to the "rise of the different name". Could it have had something to do with the War? A number of artillery peices were named "Big Bertha" during the Great War, and the name has certainly stuck about in the general cultural lexicon, so a similar "big weapon" could've become known as such by veterans from the War who went back to train spotting?

 

The book Over the Lickey! by D. Smith & D. Harrison certainly seems to put forward that as the reason for the change, suggesting railwaymen returning from the war brought the name.

[Compound2632]

38 minutes ago, Din said:

They're working with the MR Study Centre, so it likely will have as much "accurate" data as humanly possible more directly from the source.

 

That is good to know. 

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Obsidian Quarry said:

The Rapido APT what if liveries were a bit of April Fools Day fun because Rapido enjoy doing things like that, such as announcing the Titfield Thunderbolt range on April Fools Day.

Rapido very much have a sense of humour that clearly comes across in their product booklets, videos, social media posts, etc.

Go through the Rapido UK catalogue and look at how many of their products have fictional liveries and then compare that to KR, where seemingly every loco has a bunch.

Off the top of my head Rapido have done 3 over their whole range, whereas KR have done more than 3 on just the GT3 alone.

 

Edit: Plus this is getting rather off topic and if people feel this strongly about it probably requires it's own thread.

 

I would slightly disagree with that.

 

I was actually reading their US/Canadian emails at one point and they've always done fictional liveries. It's an American thing where a lot of US modellers have fictional railways rather than model Amtrack or Union Pacific.

 

 

Jason

[Fair Oak Junction]

You may well be right on that point, I generally only pay attention to the Rapido UK range and was referring to that alone.