Big Bertha

[melmerby]

25 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Not to my knowledge.

 

It wasn't built until 1919 when the Midland had stopped painting anything except the passenger locomotives crimson and I think that was only the "top link" locomotives such as the 4Ps that got it post WWI.

 

I have a feeling people might be confusing the works grey images with crimson.

 

The 1926 repaint was probably its first.

 

This old postcard is about right for its Midland condition.

 

 

 

Where's our MR experts?

 

 

Jason

I wonder how long the fence on the front lasted?

[Steamport Southport]

5 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I wonder how long the fence on the front lasted?

 

That's a bit of a sore point.

 

The locomotive was meant to have been preserved and was on the official list. But when they revised the list, it was omitted along with a few others.

 

But the handrails* and lamp survived as they were deemed iconic. But they disappeared at some point. There was an article about it in one of the quality railway magazines a few years ago.

 

*Handrail to reach the lamp and also used as a sight for crews to buffer up to trains when banking

 

 

 

Jason

[toby_tl10]

I guess the good thing about Big Bertha/Emma is that despite being a one-off like the Fell, it didn't get extensively modified throughout its working life. Hopefully KR Models would produce a model which most would perceive as "accurate". Also having no flangeless centre driving wheels like the 9F, it'd be interesting to see how the model handles curves.

 

 

Ok now who else wants a BR Maroon (late crest) 58100 to put in front of a 12-coach express?

[Bucoops]

I'm holding out for Virgin West Coast.

[John M Upton]

After the dogs dinner fiasco that is The Fell? No thanks...

[Fair Oak Junction]

Bertha is one of those models I've wanted in RTR for most of my life, It's a loco I absolutely adore. But I have so little faith in KR to actually get it right I can't bring myself to order one.

It's not like the project is even off to the promising start with their choice of liveries. No MR livery, but LMS Crimson which it never carried! Seriously? What is it with KR and liveries?

Edited October 8, 2022 by Obsidian Quarry

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

That's a bit of a sore point.

 

The locomotive was meant to have been preserved and was on the official list. But when they revised the list, it was omitted along with a few others.

 

But the handrails* and lamp survived as they were deemed iconic. But they disappeared at some point. There was an article about it in one of the quality railway magazines a few years ago.

 

*Handrail to reach the lamp and also used as a sight for crews to buffer up to trains when banking

 

 

 

Jason

 

The headlight was transferred to the 9F that replaced it on the Lickey.

 

CJI

 

[Steamport Southport]

24 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

The headlight was transferred to the 9F that replaced it on the Lickey.

 

CJI

 

 

It was. But it was still saved and was part of the National Collection.

 

I don't think that 92079 kept the lamp for long and none of the other 9Fs used had one. It seems to have lost it in 1959 during a works visit.

 

 

Jason

[peteskitchen]

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I'll stick with the DJH version of Big Emma as the MR railwaymen called it.

 

I'd love to know when Big Bertha became more popular as the nickname, but looking through old books and magazines it was definitely Emma.

 

 

 

Jason

I must admit I've never heard it called Big Emma before today. Everyday's a school day!

[peteskitchen]

6 hours ago, Bucoops said:

I'm holding out for Virgin West Coast.

Avanti Pride livery 🤪

[Allegheny1600]

I’m just reading a book by a former driver on the Lickey and he doesn’t refer to Big Emma at all, he just calls it “the big un”

[Steamport Southport]

8 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

I’m just reading a book by a former driver on the Lickey and he doesn’t refer to Big Emma at all, he just calls it “the big un”

 

I dread to think what he called the Worsborough Banker when that turned up!

 

 

 

Jason

[GWR-fan]

Given the issues with the latest release and the complexity of the announced 0-10-0 banker,  then I would be very surprised to see the item manufactured.  

 

[Poor Old Bruce]

15 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

This old postcard is about right for its Midland condition.

 

 

Where's our MR experts?

 

Jason

 

Age is relative. the "old postcard" is from about 1970 and certainly not contemporary with the real thing. In BR days it was given LNWR style lining.

 

14 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

The locomotive was meant to have been preserved and was on the official list. But when they revised the list, it was omitted along with a few others.

 

At one time it was said that the cylinder block would be preserved. in the early-mid 1960s it was still dumped at Derby loco Works along with the Fell's main gearbox.

[Fair Oak Junction]

I believe this photo is from when she was laid up at Derby after withdrawal, but regardless it is a nice study of the old girl.

[Pre Grouping fan]

5 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

Given the issues with the latest release and the complexity of the announced 0-10-0 banker,  then I would be very surprised to see the item manufactured.  

 

 

Did Bertha change at all throughout its life? If not then its a simpler prototype compared to the Fell or simpler to produce compared to bellerophon which has complex valve gear. 

[GWR-fan]

2 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

Did Bertha change at all throughout its life? If not then its a simpler prototype compared to the Fell or simpler to produce compared to bellerophon which has complex valve gear. 

 

Ten flanged wheels and a close coupled tender cab!!!!!!!!  The Fell to me is a far simpler model,  mechanically.  There is nothing complex about the Fell other than getting the body correct.   The Europeans do reliable ten-coupled designs but then they engineer them correctly and price them accordingly. 

[GreatWesternFan220]

Found a Cigarette advert (I think?) with Big Bertha in MR Crimson during one of my research sessions back when I was attempting to bring the loco into Train Simulator a few years ago. Don't believe the loco ever wore the livery but it does look good in my opinion. Reminds me of how a green example of a certain Gresley experiment (not in rebuilt form) came to be from Hornby in a way.

 

Photo credit: cigcardpix (Flickr)

[phil gollin]

.

 

I know that the loco has "charisma" (of sorts) but I am surprised that if KR are doing a 10-coupled loco that they didn't choose a WD 2-10-0, only 10 of them but more widely travelled.

 

( Still, maybe that is what Hornby will announce tomorrow !    😁  )

 

.

[Michael Hodgson]

22 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

Did Bertha change at all throughout its life? If not then its a simpler prototype compared to the Fell or simpler to produce compared to bellerophon which has complex valve gear. 

I don't know why, but somewhere I have gained an impression that the tender was different (not just by the presence of the tender cab) from other Fowler tenders or perhaps altered at some stage in the loco's life, something to do with the coal space,

[Allegheny1600]

8 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

I dread to think what he called the Worsborough Banker when that turned up!

 

 

 

Jason

Yeah, it seems that it was not that popular!

Apparently, in August 1955, 69999 was trialled as an oil burner but again, not successfully.

The “Big-un” was much more appreciated.

From “Life on the Lickey 1943 - 1986” by Patrick ‘Pat’ Wallace,  Brewin books.

Not a particularly easy read imho but fascinating nevertheless. This book has given me many ideas and a lot of interest in this line, of which 2290/58100 is a principle component but never did I think she might be modelled RTR.

 

Big Bertha is how I’ve always thought of this engine and being a Derby lad, I’d probably want a model anyway. I just hope it’s a worthy one.

 

John

[Allegheny1600]

43 minutes ago, Pre Grouping fan said:

 

Did Bertha change at all throughout its life? If not then its a simpler prototype compared to the Fell or simpler to produce compared to bellerophon which has complex valve gear. 

The tender was cut down from its original form but I don’t know when, likely early on as it was to facilitate easier coaling.

[Fair Oak Junction]

Maybe that is why KR aren't doing MR livery, as they would need to do the two different tender toolings.

[jamieb]

Sorry to be a killjoy,but this is all getting quite depressing now,with various manufacturers fighting to get in first with all these obscure one-off prototypes,when bread-and-butter prototypes which existed in their dozens,sometimes hundreds are being continually ignored.

I know people will quote rule 1 ,but I'm seeing a total imbalance on model layouts these days of the everyday Vs the exceptional.I mean ,how many people model the Lickey Incline? So is this going to sit in a showcase or is history going to be rewritten that Big Bertha worked over Shap,or on a Cornish china clay branch line ? 

As for the fictitious liveries that seem to abound these days,Rapido being another culprit of this, a few years back any manufacturer doing this would be slated 

 

[micklner]

I totally agree with the last post they are simply milking the tooling to the extreme, on total nonsense liveries .

 

Why anybody buys them who knows ??  If they actually made run of the mill Locos, they would sell far far more !!.

Edited October 9, 2022 by micklner