Hornby announce TT:120

[6990WitherslackHall]

A L&YR pug would be nice. 

['CHARD]

When they do one of these, count me in: 

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:British_Rail_Class_139#/media/File:Parry_People_Mover_139_002_leaving_Stourbridge_Town_Railway_Station_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1376879.jpg

[Tartaruga]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

.. if their target market is “ new entrants “ and not of the “ had a trainset 35 years ago..” type, 

 

On looking at Hornby's new TT catalogue my first thought was that it is not too disimilar to the Hornby catalogue I have from the '80's. The main difference being that they haven't issued an clockwork locos this time round.🚂 

[Dunsignalling]

Prior to this announcement, Hornby was the sole established UK model railway brand still confining its activities to a single scale. They needed something new to reduce their dependence on the OO market, which has got crowded and very competitive, with Hornby's dominant share of it gradually being eroded.

 

TT:120 just moves Hornby into a situation similar to most of the others, and I doubt any of them will commit themselves to the new scale before it achieves a solid share of the overall market.

 

Even when it does, further entrants will also want to be confident that Hornby really is in it for the long haul.  Peco's (limited) involvement may well be viable on overseas track sales alone, but for any of the others, making a TT:120 loco probably equates to making one fewer in one of their established scales. 

 

I'd think that probably suits Hornby anyway; they'll prefer to get their new range safely off the launch pad before having to face too much in the way of competition. Equally, the competition won't want (to) give Hornby the satisfaction of seeming to grasp at their coat tails.

 

John

 

, 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Dunsignalling
(***)

[MartinRS]

2 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

When they do one of these, count me in: 

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:British_Rail_Class_139#/media/File:Parry_People_Mover_139_002_leaving_Stourbridge_Town_Railway_Station_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1376879.jpg

Wow ! I've never seen a Class 139 before.

Is this the prototype ?

[Flying Pig]

23 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

Wow ! I've never seen a Class 139 before.

Is this the prototype ?

 

No this is the prototype and this is the bloke that starts it in the morning.

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, 'CHARD said:

When they do one of these, count me in: 

 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:British_Rail_Class_139#/media/File:Parry_People_Mover_139_002_leaving_Stourbridge_Town_Railway_Station_-_geograph.org.uk_-_1376879.jpg

 

Already make that in the Playtrains range.....

 

 

[Hroth]

17 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Already make that in the Playtrains range.....

 

 

 

And Hornby are doing a Playtrains "Electric Scotsman" for next year...

 

 

with track ideal for the floor. Sadly its OO scale...

 

Edited October 19, 2022 by Hroth

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, Littlethorpe said:

Any ubiquitous loco such as the LMS 4F would do well. I might be tempted.

The "basic" loco is what's missing from the intial releases.

The ubiquitous 0-6-0, tender or tank, there were thousands of them on Britain's railways.

At Nationalisation The LMS alone had 2180 0-6-0 Tender locos and another 864 Tanks.

The LNER had 1698 + 818, The GWR 183 +1251 & the SR 322 + 124. A total 0f 7550 locos.

 

[Jeff Smith]

You're right but we're getting what they decided, I guess the 08 will have to do for now, until  the Pannier comes along.  To me it is surprising that it (the 08) isn't available in green and hasn't been included in a goods train set for shunting......

[BRTrainz]

2 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

You're right but we're getting what they decided, I guess the 08 will have to do for now, until  the Pannier comes along.  To me it is surprising that it (the 08) isn't available in green and hasn't been included in a goods train set for shunting......

All the liveries announced for the 08 appear to be air braked.

Guessing that's why theres no BR green or black liveries announced (even though they could have done an air braked preserved one in one of those liveries).

[frobisher]

29 minutes ago, BRTrainz said:

All the liveries announced for the 08 appear to be air braked.

 

Also obviously no nose ladders on these as well and the cab door variants to be done as well.  We'll probably get those down the line.

[009 micro modeller]

12 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

What I would love to see is Peco developing a Setrack range alongside their current streamline offering but using the same points and rail profile.  They wouldn't need to do too much there either.

 

Current points are 180mm long, nominal radius of 922.6mm and 11.25 degrees curve.  Diamond crossings will be the same obviously

• So first out the box you'd need a 9.22.6mm radius curve of 11.25 degrees to get you back to a parallel track on Streamline spacing, which will be closer than Hornby's 43mm track centre spacing.
• So you'd also need a very short spacer straight to put between the point and curve to get you to that for compatibility purposes.
• You'd need 180mm straights plus some slightly less than 180mm straights (not figured out exactly what) so you can form crossovers.
• Then you just need some curves in Hornby's R1-4 (probably mostly R3 and R4) probably some mix and match between 6.125, 7.5, 11.25, 15, 22.5, 30 and 45 degrees arc.
• If you really want then, there's probably a "proper" Setrack point of 22.5 degrees that you can produce as a short radius point and a matching crossing and curve etc.

 

Possibly relevant in this context - does anyone know why Peco hasn’t done any code 55 track in 009 (even if it was still done with code 80 rail in the same way as their N gauge code 55)? I wonder if they think there is not enough demand for a second track system, and whether the same might initially apply to TT.

[Dunsignalling]

40 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Possibly relevant in this context - does anyone know why Peco hasn’t done any code 55 track in 009 (even if it was still done with code 80 rail in the same way as their N gauge code 55)? I wonder if they think there is not enough demand for a second track system, and whether the same might initially apply to TT.

Peco has long had an ongoing programme of tooling replacement which can be seen in their phased rollout of Unifrog points in various gauges as moulds come up for renewal. When that becomes necessary for the OO9 range, you might well see something of the kind.

 

However, whilst OO9/HOe has very strong support within the narrow-gauge modelling sector, the quantities of track produced, and therefore the rate of wear on the tooling, won't be comparable to what happens in OO.

 

In the same way, renewal of TT tooling will depend on how quickly demand leads to the first set wearing out. My guess is that Peco will leave the "high rail" to Hornby, though.

 

John

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Moxy]

16 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Possibly relevant in this context - does anyone know why Peco hasn’t done any code 55 track in 009 (even if it was still done with code 80 rail in the same way as their N gauge code 55)? I wonder if they think there is not enough demand for a second track system, and whether the same might initially apply to TT.

Because they don't have any competition in the 009 track market.  They do Code 80 Crazy Track & Mainline versions, if they introduced Code 55 009 they would just be competing with themselves.

Now that they have proved it is possible to bury the foot of the Code 80 so that it looks like Code 55, maybe in the future when the moulds for 009 track bases need replacing, maybe that is the way they will go, but I can't see that happening for a long time.

[toby_tl10]

8 hours ago, melmerby said:

The "basic" loco is what's missing from the intial releases.

The ubiquitous 0-6-0, tender or tank, there were thousands of them on Britain's railways.

At Nationalisation The LMS alone had 2180 0-6-0 Tender locos and another 864 Tanks.

The LNER had 1698 + 818, The GWR 183 +1251 & the SR 322 + 124. A total 0f 7550 locos.

 

Quite right, for LMS. At nationalisation, there were 575 4Fs (excluding Midland ones) and 417 Jintys.

 

For LNER, the figure seems impressive (1698 + 818), but the LNER was too poor to carry out standardisation. The most numerous 0-6-0 tender and tank classes at nationalisation are the J39 (289) and J52 (132), at much lower numbers. I personally want these (in OO), but are manufacturers willing to produce them?

 

According to Model Rail Database, in OO gauge, the most recent Bachmann J39 was produced in 2007 (31-855A and 31-865) (Were 2015's 31-866 and 31-867 ever produced?), and Hornby J52 in 2012 (R3121X). These aren't even in the current OO range, I don't really expect to see them in TT.

 

I guess manufacturers' sales data indicate that express passenger locomotives simply sell a lot more due to popularity.

[Hobby]

53 minutes ago, Moxy said:

Because they don't have any competition in the 009 track market.  They do Code 80 Crazy Track & Mainline versions, if they introduced Code 55 009 they would just be competing with themselves.

Now that they have proved it is possible to bury the foot of the Code 80 so that it looks like Code 55, maybe in the future when the moulds for 009 track bases need replacing, maybe that is the way they will go, but I can't see that happening for a long time.

 

Crazy Track and Mainline are aimed at two different markets, Mainline is very much modern 750/760mm gauge track and is very good, code 80 is just fine for that, also it competes with Tillig which has the looks but isn't as robust, and Roco which has good plain track but not so good points.

 

I'd agree that Crazy Track needs replacing with the "code" 55 rail, though, it was brought out in a time when pizza cutter wheels were the norm, but with modern RTR we don't need the rail depth and the rail height is far out of line with most modern heritage narrow gauge line which use far lighter rail. There's a couple of layouts going round based on the Welshpool which use code 40 and it's amazing how much better they look. Even the code 55 would be better than code 80.

 

Can't see it happening any time soon, though.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Hobby

[TT-Pete]

13 hours ago, 6990WitherslackHall said:

A L&YR pug would be nice. 

 

Why don't you tell them?:

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/forum/what-do-people-hope-to-see-in-the-range-329864?ccm_paging_p=3#end-of-replies

[Covkid]

13 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Prior to this announcement, Hornby was the sole established UK model railway brand still confining its activities to a single scale. They needed something new to reduce their dependence on the OO market, which has got crowded and very competitive, with Hornby's dominant share of it gradually being eroded.

 

TT:120 just moves Hornby into a situation similar to most of the others, and I doubt any of them will commit themselves to the new scale before it achieves a solid share of the overall market.

 

Even when it does, further entrants will also want to be confident that Hornby really is in it for the long haul.  Peco's (limited) involvement may well be viable on overseas track sales alone, but for any of the others, making a TT:120 loco probably equates to making one fewer in one of their established scales. 

 

I'd think that probably suits Hornby anyway; they'll prefer to get their new range safely off the launch pad before having to face too much in the way of competition. Equally, the competition won't want (to) give Hornby the satisfaction of seeming to grasp at their coat tails.

 

John,

 

Not sure I totally agree with that thesis - for the simple reason the massive investment in locos like the new 9F and the forthcoming all new black five would instead have been pumped into TT 120.  Can't recall seeing the black five and the 9F in the first couple of phases of TT releases.

 

The one class I am surprised Hornby haven't announced is the LMS or BR tankie, either as the ubiquitous 4MT 8xxxx or the 41xxx "Mickey Mouse". Could it be because both OO models are "owned" by Bachmann ? Both classes covered quite a geographical spread of UK operations on both passenger and freight.  

[Moxy]

13 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

The one class I am surprised Hornby haven't announced is the LMS or BR tankie, either as the ubiquitous 4MT 8xxxx or the 41xxx "Mickey Mouse". Could it be because both OO models are "owned" by Bachmann ? Both classes covered quite a geographical spread of UK operations on both passenger and freight.  

 

Why would it matter who has produced a particular prototype in OO? I agree with you both (or either) would be a useful addition to a range of TT locos. As Hornby is effectively market leader in TT, maybe there are plans for one of these locos in phases 5,6, or 7.  We shall have to wait and see.

[MyRule1]

Can it be only 10 days since the announcement by Hornby? 77 pages and over 1900 posts make it seem like a lifetime.

 

In those 10 days I have revised my personal position regarding TT:120. From warm enthusiasm to indifference or not of interest to me. The reason being resources - time and money.

 

I currently have two layouts - a OO end to end with an adapted Hornby Trackmat at one end to act as a fiddle yard and test track and a n gauge  KATO track based layout where I run a variety of stock that I associate with my years of train travel.

 

My initial reaction was to look to sell the N gauge layout and fund the TT:120 investment. N gauge is becoming harder for me to handle with advancing age and TT:120 looks about right and a reasonable replacement for the N gauge would fit into the same space.

 

The cold light of day and research into 2nd hand values have made me change my plans;

 

Even with the 15% discount I estimate that it would take £750+ to replace the Kato track and just have two trains running. I would be happy with an A4 and Duchess as I have travelled behind both in preservation. This would replace the 8 current trains I have running in N. I would be very unlikely to get that for the N gauge.

 

I do like running DMU's as much of my travel has been on these and none are present in the announcements made to date.

 

I would need to start again from scratch with landscaping and structures.

 

So sorry Hornby and Peco no TT:120 for me and good news for N gauge manufacturers as that is where my purchases will go. The OO layout is mature and there are only two loco's on my possible purchase list.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

56 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Not sure I totally agree with that thesis - for the simple reason the massive investment in locos like the new 9F and the forthcoming all new black five would instead have been pumped into TT 120.  Can't recall seeing the black five and the 9F in the first couple of phases of TT releases.

 

The one class I am surprised Hornby haven't announced is the LMS or BR tankie, either as the ubiquitous 4MT 8xxxx or the 41xxx "Mickey Mouse". Could it be because both OO models are "owned" by Bachmann ? Both classes covered quite a geographical spread of UK operations on both passenger and freight.  

Because they don't fit Hornby's primary obsessions. Wrong colour, no names, and BR numbers that don't begin with a six.

 

Hornby's future may hang on the degree of success achieved by TT:120, in a way that nobody else's does. However, they dare not be seen as "going soft" in OO until and unless TT:120 develops sales volumes sufficient to "take over" the major role.

 

Hornby has been forced into doing something to counter their declining dominance in OO where "the rest" are actually their problem. Why would they even want any of them trying to extend the effect into their new venture?

 

Even if TT:120 does thrive in time, it's not going to happen overnight and Hornby's competitors won't join in unless they consider there's at least as much in it for them as they can make from their established businesses.

 

John

Edited October 20, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Paul.Uni]

1 hour ago, toby_tl10 said:

According to Model Rail Database, in OO gauge, the most recent Bachmann J39 was produced in 2007 (31-855A and 31-865) (Were 2015's 31-866 and 31-867 ever produced?),

The 2015 J39 locos were cancelled.

[Hobby]

9 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Because they don't fit Hornby's primary obsessions. Wrong colour, no names, and BR numbers that don't begin with a six.

 

I feel that's missing the point, they are launching a new scale and trying to get new people involved, probably many without much interest or knowledge of railways. So a 4f for example wouldn't sell well,  but a Pacific that looks like those they may have seen on tv or even in real life will. Horses for courses. We'll see other options in due course, but we'll have to be patient.

[Chris116]

1 minute ago, Hobby said:

 

but we'll have to be patient.

On-line forums don't normally do 'patient' very well.