Hornby announce TT:120

[Covkid]

14 hours ago, Covkid said:

Isn't that exactly how Hornby intended it to be ?

AFAIK They don't ever intend to have more than a select couple of outlets retail their TT:120 brand - which IMHO is a big mistake

 

34 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I don't see it as a mistake but more of a necessity.  By bringing in retailers what they do is pass on to them the customer service and support function,  So by doing that it probably saves, or could save, Hornby some money.  Plus it might hook-in the add-on market more easily than buying. say, a singe wagon online through Hornby even it is still an online sale but through a very efficient retailer run operation..

 

I was trying to be polite Mike !!!

Simon Kohler claimed this Tt:120 range was in the planning for five years so there must have been numerous high level board meetings where it was discussed and debated.  Perhaps there were a few strategic plan Bs built into the project, but I would personally have regarded LHS retailer involvement as crucial in developing the range. It is totally different to entering a marketplace with a pre existing scale / gauge and announcing product. As I have said before there are whole swathes of loco classes which are unlikely to see the light of day in the next 8 years such as a BR type 2.  The stillborn class 31 from Heljan was going to be the closest but I would imagine that class is now "damaged goods" and unlikely to be picked up by anyone other than Hornby, or a Heljan change of mind. So the secondary or branchline diesel railway be it Scotland, Wales, Devon, East Anglia, and the whole swathe of railway in the Midlands and north is unlikely to see classes 21 thru 29.  To me that is visible because Hornby only have an ancient class 25 and class 29 in their portfolio which the lazer shrink machine could not cope with for TT:120.  Hornby needed and need partnership in the programme, or a polite willingness by others to invest time and energy.      

[Hobby]

14 hours ago, Covkid said:

They don't ever intend to have more than a select couple of outlets retail their TT:120 brand

 

So far they seem to have supplied three, so far, are you on the marketing team at Hornby that allows you to make that statement so positively? Or is it a guess? I agree with Gatesheadgeek, they are just testing the market at the moment. we shall see in due course no doubt.

[frobisher]

1 hour ago, Covkid said:

As I have said before there are whole swathes of loco classes which are unlikely to see the light of day in the next 8 years such as a BR type 2.  The stillborn class 31 from Heljan was going to be the closest but I would imagine that class is now "damaged goods" and unlikely to be picked up by anyone other than Hornby, or a Heljan change of mind.

 

The fact that Heljan got as far as they did with the 31 indicates "8 years" might be overly pessimistic, I suspect the other manufacturers are taking stock of a) Hornby's development pipeline timescales first and b) the uptake of the scale.  Duplication this early in the game is exceptionally counterproductive.

 

Heljan were unfortunate to have been pre-empted with the 31, but they are probably well set up to get one or more of a 20, 25, 26, 27, 33 or maybe even a 24 to market within a 24 month timescale if they had the confidence to do so.

[Jeff Smith]

The introduction is all water under the bridge now but I think a green 08 goods set would have been popular.  I would have bought it instead of The Easterner as an introduction to the scale.

[adb968008]

17 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

Isn't that exactly how Hornby intended it to be ?

AFAIK They don't ever intend to have more than a select couple of outlets retail their TT:120 brand - which IMHO is a big mistake

You can only open it up to the market once.

once the toothpaste is out if the tube you cannot put it back.

 

selective retailers is no different to any other new product trial or POC… supply limits is one thing, feedback is another… they can learn more for the future. If everyone had a piece of the action there could be a risk of too much stock or not enough stock, but also risk of your competitors knowing everything you do about the demand.

 

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by adb968008

[Guest]

1 hour ago, frobisher said:

 

The fact that Heljan got as far as they did with the 31 indicates "8 years" might be overly pessimistic, I suspect the other manufacturers are taking stock of a) Hornby's development pipeline timescales first and b) the uptake of the scale.  Duplication this early in the game is exceptionally counterproductive.

 

Heljan were unfortunate to have been pre-empted with the 31, but they are probably well set up to get one or more of a 20, 25, 26, 27, 33 or maybe even a 24 to market within a 24 month timescale if they had the confidence to do so.

Well I've always said that Heljan should go/or should have gone for an alternate prototype such as those you've mentioned. Hornby having the Class 31 as part of their range was always going to be a no-brainer for em.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, Covkid said:

 

 

I was trying to be polite Mike !!!

Simon Kohler claimed this Tt:120 range was in the planning for five years so there must have been numerous high level board meetings where it was discussed and debated.  Perhaps there were a few strategic plan Bs built into the project, but I would personally have regarded LHS retailer involvement as crucial in developing the range. It is totally different to entering a marketplace with a pre existing scale / gauge and announcing product. As I have said before there are whole swathes of loco classes which are unlikely to see the light of day in the next 8 years such as a BR type 2.  The stillborn class 31 from Heljan was going to be the closest but I would imagine that class is now "damaged goods" and unlikely to be picked up by anyone other than Hornby, or a Heljan change of mind. So the secondary or branchline diesel railway be it Scotland, Wales, Devon, East Anglia, and the whole swathe of railway in the Midlands and north is unlikely to see classes 21 thru 29.  To me that is visible because Hornby only have an ancient class 25 and class 29 in their portfolio which the lazer shrink machine could not cope with for TT:120.  Hornby needed and need partnership in the programme, or a polite willingness by others to invest time and energy.      

! was too (trying to be polite).

 

As for gettung teh range right I suspev ct that judging by what came out first it was 100% internally driven.  And probably very much along the lines of 'if it sells in 00 it will sell in TT120 ' - after all Hornby ought to have a gopd idea of what sells.  And they must surely know which have been the best selling main range trainsets?

 

The only difference they could encounter would be the extent of what their target 'newcomer' market is interested in buying.  Or maybe they took the line 'they'll buy nice looking trainsets too'  - and that wouldn't necessarily have been a bad policy.

 

LHS feed back is a complex thing and I really don't know if Hornby have in teh past been able to proper;y manage that sort of asset.  What shops demand/ask for is what their customers want, or have told them they want.  The big step is between saying what you want and actually bein g prepared to buy it when (if) it emerges.  Hornby must probably have had some sort of handle on that but did they really understand how it worked as an indicator of demand?

 

I think they got their initial sets right.  First ina smaller scale they should ideallyinvlve 'big' engines and the right sort of coaches to go with them.  As far as Hornby is concerned that almost automatically means East Coast pacifics.  And even in the 21st century steam outline models probably tug a few heart strings and open wallets.   In teh area with the most disposable income - according to some sources - those with teh money are highly likely to have travelled on expensive steam hauled excursions, or trains which are sometimes steam hauled during a longer tour, witha big engine on the front while they sup their champagne and tick into four course meals in many cases in Mk1 coaches.  I don't know if Hornby realised that was a potential market but theres it's aplace where teh money is waiting to be spent and big engine with Mk1 stock is readily recognised,  If  was Ollie Raeburn I'd be looking at flogging TT120 trainsets on certain steam hauled excursions but only bothering with the Pullman and 1st Class dining areas on the train.

[Ravenser]

Railway Modeller has arrived and  it lists 5 retailers for TT-120:

- Gaugemaster

- Frizinghall

- Bure Valley Models

- Cheltenham Model Centre

- Chester Model Centre

 

Kernow are additional to that list, and confirmed.

 

Peters Spares are to carry spares.

 

Its interesting that a couple of smaller shops are willing to be TT:120 specialists

 

This is all very like the way the "new entrants" operate : start with direct sales, then open the product out to a small number of retailers . It is "the Australian business model" (which evolved in part because there really aren't that many model shops in your average state. Sydney runs to about 3 - Bergs, Casula and Hobbyco) 

 

The new entrants have been seen as highly successful and I've not seen any suggestion that their limited subset of retailers, taking a modest proportion of total sales , is holding back their market penetration

 

Hornby have accidentally copied another part of the "Australian model" , which is sales by direct pre-order and the model being made once the orders are in - because the stuff sells straight through on arrival and people are effectively pushed into pre-ordering what they want as there is very limited stock on the shelf.

 

The distribution strategy also mirrors the way niche scales and products are usually marketed. DCC , in its first 20 years when it was dismissed and disregarded by the bulk of the hobby here, was sold through a small number of specialist retailers, often 1 per brand

 

I have a feeling that getting Phase 2 sold out may   require more heavy lifting than Phase 1 did - sales as individual items may take more work than selling the starter sets. Hence a good point at which to bring in a small number of retailers - many of them boxshifters with nationwide reach

 

Edited July 10, 2023 by Ravenser

[ixionmodels]

10 hours ago, Ravenser said:

It is "the Australian business model" (which evolved in part because there really aren't that many model shops in your average state. Sydney runs to about 3 - Bergs, Casula and Hobbyco)....

Hornby have accidentally copied another part of the "Australian model" , which is sales by direct pre-order and the model being made once the orders are in - because the stuff sells straight through on arrival and people are effectively pushed into pre-ordering what they want as there is very limited stock on the shelf.

 

Both these statements are only accurate in part, and quite wrong in others: a few Australian model manufacturers - Austrains in particular - have had a sales model of selling direct until tooling costs are covered, and then supplying shops; but most, including my own Ixion Models, supply shops from the outset on the release of a new model, as well as selling direct from the company website as a service to modellers in rural and remote areas who can be 1,000 miles or more from a model shop. As to there being only 3 model shops in Sydney, this is simply not so. I live in Newcastle, so I don't know them all, but I've also been to Woodpecker Model Railways in Pendle Hill (recently and famously visited by Rod Stewart), Australian Modeller in Seven Hills, Model Railroad Craftsman in Blacktown, Hobbyland in Hornsby, Bob's Models & Hobbies in Seven Hills, and ScaleModelCo in Thornleigh...

[ruggedpeak]

May be of interest, today only - DCC Concepts TT rolling road Flash Sale at Rails

 

 

[Johan DC]

A new Train Terminal is out:

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/hornbytt120-club/members-area/blog-and-news/class-50-and-rake-wagons

 

It has renders of the Classes 50 and 66, and a first shot mouldings of the former.

Also some engineering of livery samples of the TTA, 21Tons and HAA.

(anybody knows where I can find an explanation for the BR abreviations?

 

 

[Steadfast]

29 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Also some engineering of livery samples of the TTA, 21Tons and HAA.

(anybody knows where I can find an explanation for the BR abreviations?

 

This link seems to explain it OK, from a quick skim read (there, that's my get out if there's errors on it!)

http://www.solihullmrc.org/wagon_tops_codes.html

 

Fundamentally the first letter is the category and the last letter is brake type. The middle letter is unique to that variant of wagon.

 

So HAA is a hopper, the first type in its series and air braked.

 

Other hoppers with air brakes are HHA, HTA and HKA, these are all completely different designs, note the middle letter that changes to denote this.

 

Jo

[Johan DC]

19 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

This link seems to explain it OK, from a quick skim read (there, that's my get out if there's errors on it!)

http://www.solihullmrc.org/wagon_tops_codes.html

 

Fundamentally the first letter is the category and the last letter is brake type. The middle letter is unique to that variant of wagon.

 

So HAA is a hopper, the first type in its series and air braked.

 

Other hoppers with air brakes are HHA, HTA and HKA, these are all completely different designs, note the middle letter that changes to denote this.

 

Jo

Thank you Jo, very useful!

 

 

[Steamport Southport]

16 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Railway Modeller has arrived and  it lists 5 retailers for TT-120:

- Gaugemaster

- Frizinghall

- Bure Valley Models

- Cheltenham Model Centre

- Chester Model Centre

 

Kernow are additional to that list, and confirmed.

 

Peters Spares are to carry spares.

 

Its interesting that a couple of smaller shops are willing to be TT:120 specialists

 

This is all very like the way the "new entrants" operate : start with direct sales, then open the product out to a small number of retailers . It is "the Australian business model" (which evolved in part because there really aren't that many model shops in your average state. Sydney runs to about 3 - Bergs, Casula and Hobbyco) 

 

The new entrants have been seen as highly successful and I've not seen any suggestion that their limited subset of retailers, taking a modest proportion of total sales , is holding back their market penetration

 

Hornby have accidentally copied another part of the "Australian model" , which is sales by direct pre-order and the model being made once the orders are in - because the stuff sells straight through on arrival and people are effectively pushed into pre-ordering what they want as there is very limited stock on the shelf.

 

The distribution strategy also mirrors the way niche scales and products are usually marketed. DCC , in its first 20 years when it was dismissed and disregarded by the bulk of the hobby here, was sold through a small number of specialist retailers, often 1 per brand

 

I have a feeling that getting Phase 2 sold out may   require more heavy lifting than Phase 1 did - sales as individual items may take more work than selling the starter sets. Hence a good point at which to bring in a small number of retailers - many of them boxshifters with nationwide reach

 

 

I would expect Hattons to join in as well.

 

They've already got a Hornby TT section as there was a couple of "pre owned" coaches in it the other day.

 

 

Jason

[adb968008]

17 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

I think they got their initial sets right.  First ina smaller scale they should ideallyinvlve 'big' engines and the right sort of coaches to go with them.  As far as Hornby is concerned that almost automatically means East Coast pacifics.  And even in the 21st century steam outline models probably tug a few heart strings and open wallets.   In teh area with the most disposable income - according to some sources - those with teh money are highly likely to have travelled on expensive steam hauled excursions, or trains which are sometimes steam hauled during a longer tour, witha big engine on the front while they sup their champagne and tick into four course meals in many cases in Mk1 coaches.  I don't know if Hornby realised that was a potential market but theres it's aplace where teh money is waiting to be spent and big engine with Mk1 stock is readily recognised,  If  was Ollie Raeburn I'd be looking at flogging TT120 trainsets on certain steam hauled excursions but only bothering with the Pullman and 1st Class dining areas on the train.

 

 

 

Wasnt the A1ST selling Bachmann Tornados onboard at one point ?

 

ive suggested several times Hornby could reinvent the trainset, by creating Preserved railway themes..

an SVR set with 75069, a Bluebell set with Terrier, Mid Hants set with S15… it means all those other long since gone aspects of the mainline could be reused in trainsets…. I’d wager few people under 50 have ever seen a milk churn or cattle dock outside a preserved railway, indeed you’d be mid 20’s to remember luggage trolleys…

 

just put a preserved number / livery, with some relevent coaches and a pertinent landmark of the railway in a limited edition box.. so you can grow the theme each year with a new version of the set.

Edited July 11, 2023 by adb968008

[Covkid]

2 hours ago, Steadfast said:

This link seems to explain it OK, from a quick skim read (there, that's my get out if there's errors on it!)

http://www.solihullmrc.org/wagon_tops_codes.html

 

Fundamentally the first letter is the category and the last letter is brake type. The middle letter is unique to that variant of wagon.

 

So HAA is a hopper, the first type in its series and air braked.

 

Other hoppers with air brakes are HHA, HTA and HKA, these are all completely different designs, note the middle letter that changes to denote this.

 

Jo

 

Exactly right.

The third letter is the most important one since we don't run unfitted freight trains anymore. All your vehicles need to be A B H Q R or X

A = air

B = air plus vac pipe

H = dual brakes where the vacuum is AfI instead of reguilar vacuum.

Q = air piped

R = dual piped

X = dual braked

 

 

 

 

[Revolution Ben]

35 minutes ago, Covkid said:

 

Exactly right.

The third letter is the most important one since we don't run unfitted freight trains anymore. All your vehicles need to be A B H Q R or X

A = air

B = air plus vac pipe

H = dual brakes where the vacuum is AfI instead of reguilar vacuum.

Q = air piped

R = dual piped

X = dual braked

 

 

 

 

 

There are a handful of others you might see, though only on wagons before (I think) the early 2000s:

 

O = unfitted, parking hand brake only.

P = unfitted with through vacuum pipe.

V = vacuum braked only.

W = vacuum brake plus through air pipe

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[newbryford]

1 hour ago, Covkid said:

 

Exactly right.

The third letter is the most important one since we don't run unfitted freight trains anymore. All your vehicles need to be A B H Q R or X

A = air

B = air plus vac pipe

H = dual brakes where the vacuum is AfI instead of reguilar vacuum.

Q = air piped

R = dual piped

X = dual braked

 

 

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, Revolution Ben said:

 

There are a handful of others you might see, though only on wagons before (I think) the early 2000s:

 

O = unfitted, parking hand brake only.

P = unfitted with through vacuum pipe.

V = vacuum braked only.

W = vacuum brake plus through air pipe

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

And:

 

F Vacuum brakes with Accelerated Freight Inshot (AFI)

G Vacuum brakes with AFI and through air pipe

 

Y No continuous brake (for track machines)

[Flying Pig]

1 hour ago, Revolution Ben said:

O = unfitted, parking hand brake only.

 

Also used to control trains on falling gradients by "pinning down" prior to starting, a practice that continued well into the TOPS era in a few places.

[MartinRS]

5 hours ago, Johan DC said:

A new Train Terminal is out:

https://uk.Hornby.com/community/hornbytt120-club/members-area/blog-and-news/class-50-and-rake-wagons

 

It has renders of the Classes 50 and 66, and a first shot mouldings of the former.

Also some engineering of livery samples of the TTA, 21Tons and HAA.

(anybody knows where I can find an explanation for the BR abreviations?

 

 

Thanks for the link. I can remember watching class 56 hauled HAA merry-go-round trains being loaded at Barrow Colliery just up the line from Dovecliffe signal cabin, near Wombwell Main Junction. I spent a lot of time working on fitting electric interlocking to a ground frame which controlled access to the colliery sidings. As a trainee I moved from department to department, and on that job I worked with the electrical installation gang, which involved digging a cable trench using a chainsaw-like machine. (Being a trainee technician in the S&T seemed to involve lots of digging in the 1970s). I then I did a stint with the cable jointers and made my first cable joint on the cable run up to the ground frame. When I transferred to the locking fitters I made, or to be more accurate cut down the stem of a signal leaver, ran a die down the stem and painted it, in preparation for it to be fitted to the ground frame.

 

I got excited when I read that the Class 50 was to be available in green, only to be disappointed when I found it was a later re-paint. I do like the pictures of the Class 50 parts on the sprue though. Here's a hint for anyone at Hornby reading this. With the addition of wheel sets, transfers and assembly instructions the on sprue parts would make an interesting kit! Do all TT:120 locos start out like this?
 

[Delta_Who]

13 minutes ago, MartinRS said:

Do all TT:120 locos start out like this?
 

 

Most plastic-injected models will start out like this, especially if its high on detail. 

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

Wasnt the A1ST selling Bachmann Tornados onboard at one point ?

 

ive suggested several times Hornby could reinvent the trainset, by creating Preserved railway themes..

an SVR set with 75069, a Bluebell set with Terrier, Mid Hants set with S15… it means all those other long since gone aspects of the mainline could be reused in trainsets…. I’d wager few people under 50 have ever seen a milk churn or cattle dock outside a preserved railway, indeed you’d be mid 20’s to remember luggage trolleys…

 

just put a preserved number / livery, with some relevent coaches and a pertinent landmark of the railway in a limited edition box.. so you can grow the theme each year with a new version of the set.

I remain of the view - from what I see - that far more people, especially many youngsters, get their only experience of railways from visits to preservation/heritage sites or railways, or mainline steam excursions etc, than anybody in the mass market  model railway business seems to recognise.

[D9020 Nimbus]

Well, Kato's "N gauge" range of RhB models began as sets to be sold to Japanese and other tourists travelling on the Glacier Express…

Edited July 11, 2023 by D9020 Nimbus

[Steadfast]

Nice of Hornby to hide all the development pics behind a fan club paywall. Would have been interesting to see, if the quality is good perhaps they'd have enticed more people to jump in to their product range.

 

Jo

[Ravenser]

27 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

Nice of Hornby to hide all the development pics behind a fan club paywall. Would have been interesting to see, if the quality is good perhaps they'd have enticed more people to jump in to their product range.

 

Jo

 

 

However - for the last 9 months Hornby haven't really needed sales and support from the wider established hobby. They've sold everything they've made in very short order, largely to people who are new to the hobby.

 

They don't actually need more folk to jump into the TT:120 product range at this point - they are struggling to to meet existing demand. And - disconcerting as it is to us long-standing committed modellers - when Hornby said at the start they weren't aiming this scale at existing modellers , they were targetting people not already in the hobby, they very clearly meant it. To a large extent they have delivered, too. Even though extreme scepticism was widely expressed in the hobby about whether TT:120 could ever attract any significant number of newbies

 

There is also the awkward fact that for the last quarter of a century chucking rocks online at development pictures of new RTR diesel locomotives has been an important part of the hobby for quite a few in D+E.. Since membership of the club was free if you signed up in the first 3 months  most existing modellers with a serious interest in the possibilities of the new scale will have signed up and will be able to see the pictures. If you aren't a member of the club it's very unlikely that you have any intention of buying a model of a Class 50 in 1:120 scale in the next 2 years. Why expose the model to the whole circus of sustained and systematic online abuse when basically none of those lining up to lay into it or otherwise comment would ever have bought one?  (or indeed any TT:120 model). [I'm not implying that there's anything wrong with the model. Perfectly decent new 4mm models of diesels have had rocks chucked at them for decades. It's a recognised sport]

 

Look at this another way - Bachmann have moved to a policy of only announcing new models when they are on the point of release. That cuts out the whole business of seeing EPs in glass cases, CAD renders, animated months-long debates online about whether they've got the X wrong... Bachmann seem to have come to the view that the whole thing was a liability rather than an asset, and they would be  better off simply saying "Here you are . Brand new model . Buy it now", not making every new model run a years' long gauntlet of online abuse. Apparently this is working fine for them

 

The real purpose of these development shots of the TT:120 Class 50 is rather different. They send the message , loud and clear , that the TT Class 50 is definitely for real and actual models will be available to buy  in the near future. Given the scepticism about whether many of  the models Hornby announced would ever see the light of day , that's necessary for Margate  to do. 

 

The number of people who have wandered into this thread announcing  that Hornby have got the range all wrong and they should have made an X ... - only for someone to point out that Hornby did in fact announce an X as part of  Phase 2/3/4 in their original programme, isn't funny. It stems from  the extreme negativity about the original announcement which led to most posters dismissing anything announced for Phases 3/4 as pure vaporware not to be taken seriously , and anything in Phase 2 as very much open to doubt as to whether it would actually be produced. People simply didn't bother reading the list of models announced.

 

Phase 2 is happening, all of it , in the next 9 months:  the question now is what we get from Phases 3+4 and when

 

At some point, Hornby will need all the sales and all the potential market they can drum up for TT:120, from every source. And I happen to think the Class 50 is one of the riskier models in the range. But right now Hornby don't actually need the wider established hobby to shift the product, and in the short term the risks from exposing it to a very hostile environment probably outweigh any possible boost to sales. Afterall you can't sell more than 100% of production...

 

It's a very disconcerting situation. So far Hornby have been able to sell ev erything they can make in 1:120 scale without bothering to market it to existing railway modellers at all.