Hornby announce TT:120

[Les1952]

49 minutes ago, F-UnitMad said:

Ah, yes, comprehendy - fair enough, and interesting to know. As far as I could tell at the time, Berliner Bahn models were fairly basic back then. From what I've seen online, modern EU TT is as detailed as HO.

 

One thing to add, with a goodly number of manufacturers providing stock for Bregstadt I can say that amongst the very best for quality is.... Arnold.

 

Looking at my Arnold 2-10-0 and comparing it with my Hornby Pacifics I would be very surprised if there were any real design input into the Hornby range from Arnold- the elements that are just done better in Arnold versions are legion.  Slow running is fantastic, ability to take the sharp curves I need for a portable layout I don't need a van hire to transport, DCC fitting, etc etc.  The tiny Arnold Kof shunter runs better through Hornby pointwork than the 08 does- though admittedly not well enough- and it comes factory fitted with DCC in a loco less than half the size of the 08.

 

The 66 will be interesting,  How much of the delay has been spent getting it up to Arnold standards to sell into Europe?  If it isn't good enough in the Arnold version it could trash the brand......

 

Les

 

edit- afterthought- the Kof has also been done by Arnold in N for a good many years.

Edited May 10 by Les1952

[Les1952]

 

Sorry about the poor focusing- it is so small, even in TT gauge.

 

This is an Arnold Kof aka class 100.  This is a Hornby product sold to me through the Hornby website and earning me Hornby points.  About half of the size of the 08 it is s better runner, and came factory DCC fitted.  ....

 

Les

 

[teletougos]

2 hours ago, ThaneofFife said:

Ive not seen rafts of negative comments or suggestions about TT120 apart from my own fwiw comment saying 3mm would have been my personal preference.  Smaller than 00 but not as close to N as TT120 is.   

 

I don't think there are rafts of negative comments. I think it's reasonable to express doubts as to whether it is possible to launch a model railway scale in a market, where the proponent doesn't actually manufacture any of the stuff. I don't think that's happened before.

 

I haven't heard a mitigation set out that could address that vulnerability. It could be Hornby don't want to get into it; acknowledging it might deter folk adopting TT.  

 

I think it's reasonable to be concerned about the scale's visibility, which after an initially flurry, has been decidedly patchy. 

 

[britishcolumbian]

12 hours ago, osbornsmodels said:

Kato were to jointly develop a TT120 loco

Kato did announce a Reichsbahn SVT (the Flying Hamburger) in TT in the later 1990s, but nothing ever came of it - I have no idea why or what happened, but the precedent is there, that they were once willing to consider the scale.

[Hobby]

8 hours ago, teletougos said:

I haven't heard a mitigation set out that could address that vulnerability. It could be Hornby don't want to get into it; acknowledging it might deter folk adopting TT.  

 

What would such mitigation take the form of?

[teletougos]

29 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

What would such mitigation take the form of?

 

Exactly.

[Hobby]

I should have added "and is there a need to" as I doubt the majority of people are even thinking along those lines except a very few sceptical people on here! ;)

[Pacific231G]

18 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

This has been covered before. Neither knew anything about each others plans for the scale (and on that basis we can assume neither knew about Heljan). SK and Peco have both said that the only reason they found out was their staff happened to mention it when chatting. I'd have thought they'd both be happy about it as well. It's somewhere I think in this thread, and elsewhere, one of the early SK interviews I think.

 

It would seem an extraordinary coincidence that, almost half a century since TT-3 was abandoned as a consumer product,  Peco would have suddenly decided to introduce a TT range to a British market with no British outline stock available just months before Hornby did and also brand it as TT:120.  Producing TT track aimed at the European market would have made sense anytime* since the likes of Tillig updated the old eastern block products and Peco have produced 12mm gauge track for H0m ( also used by many British 3mm gauge modellers) for ages, so why 2023?  

 

I'd used the old East Gertman Berliner Bahn stuff for H0m for quite some time but it was always a bit crude. There's no comparison with modern TT and H0m from Tillig (I suspect using the same basic mech designs)   

 

*Peco also market their 00 Bullhead track in France as H0 "double champignon" and, given its prevalence on many railways there until comparatively recently, it seems to sell well. so the European market is important to them 

[teletougos]

6 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

would seem an extraordinary coincidence that, almost half a century since TT-3 was abandoned as a consumer product,  Peco would have suddenly decided to introduce a TT range to a British market with no British outline stock available just months before Hornby did and also brand it as TT:120

 

PECO will have been well aware, as TT modellers have known about Hornby sniffing around for years. 

 

It doesn't matter what anyone says, they may have reasons for denying it etc, and they're welcome to assert it.  But in this case it seriously isn't possible. 

Edited May 11 by teletougos

[ruggedpeak]

On 08/05/2024 at 13:19, Steamport Southport said:

The reason why serious modellers aren't taking up TT is above.

Hate to put it out there, but "serious modellers" are not overly relevant to TT:120 now at this stage of the lifecycle of the scale.

 

"Serious modellers" will adopt it later in the lifecycle when there is a greater range of products to meet the particular specific needs, long after early adopters, "non-serious modellers" and new entrants have got on and tried it and will be showing layouts on Youtube and at shows. Serious modellers are unlikely to be a sufficiently lucrative market at the early stages of the scale's development, especially given the inbuilt negativity amongst that seems prevalent in that market segment. If you were trying to launch a brand new scale on a limited budget would you target a pernickity, judgemental and highly selective segment of the market that will only buy specific items of a certain type/grouping etc or target one that is more flexible, open minded and likely to buy models even if they are not perfect fit for their era etc?

[Hobby]

Good. Perhaps they could just leave us alone to enjoy the scale, then! (Spoken as a very average modeller who doesn't take the hobby seriously and is in here to enjoy himself!)

Edited May 11 by Hobby
Spelling

[Johan DC]

Can someone explain the difference between ‘serious’ and ‘not-serious’ modellers? 

[J-Lewis]

10 minutes ago, Johan DC said:

Can someone explain the difference between ‘serious’ and ‘not-serious’ modellers? 

Pretty sure the difference is that ‘not serious’ modellers simply get on with playing trains and enjoying the hobby whereas ‘serious’ modellers complain endlessly on forums like this and wait for the ‘perfect’ model to arrive on the market in a particular obscure prototype variant/livery!  😂

[009 micro modeller]

51 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Hate to put it out there, but "serious modellers" are not overly relevant to TT:120 now at this stage of the lifecycle of the scale.

 

"Serious modellers" will adopt it later in the lifecycle when there is a greater range of products to meet the particular specific needs, long after early adopters, "non-serious modellers" and new entrants have got on and tried it and will be showing layouts on Youtube and at shows. Serious modellers are unlikely to be a sufficiently lucrative market at the early stages of the scale's development, especially given the inbuilt negativity amongst that seems prevalent in that market segment. If you were trying to launch a brand new scale on a limited budget would you target a pernickity, judgemental and highly selective segment of the market that will only buy specific items of a certain type/grouping etc or target one that is more flexible, open minded and likely to buy models even if they are not perfect fit for their era etc?

‘Serious’ but not serious enough to make anything themselves, or from a kit…

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, Johan DC said:

Can someone explain the difference between ‘serious’ and ‘not-serious’ modellers? 

There was a Thread started about that....

😁😁😁👍👍

 

 

[Richard E]

I see comments on here of a lack of clubs building TT layouts - well mine has including building 2 aspect colour light signals as nothing is available ready made (I didn't notice the tumbleweed when I took this one and there was still a lot of work to be done on the trackside scenery ...).

 

 

As for appropriate stock that is more down to Hornby not being able to supply the relevant stock than the club not acquiring it, it is improving in that respect, stock seems to be arriving on a rather hit or miss timescale which has been very frustrating for us. We have an original livery HST as well as one in Swallow livery. We were only able to get the Swallow livery power cars on Tuesday. Oddly the retailer who fitted the chips was unable to load the appropriate sound files, I was told they said they didn't have the necessary technology, I did think about running the unit as supplied for the comedy factor but someone would, no doubt, have criticised us on social media for that ...

 

And interestingly the Retailer instructions published by Hornby for loading sound files are quite poor, they miss out some of the necessary steps. I found that out when loading the sound files on Wednesday. It's a good job that I'm reasonably tech savvy despite being a pensioner. Oh, TT isn't 'my' scale, I model in N running DCC and fitting my own decoders. That's why I tend to get the electrical/electronic/DCC jobs. I built the signals and the signal control modules.

 

I was rather taken by this view I caught earlier today at an exhibition which does show further improvement/progress. And I'd suggest that it isn't easy to identify the scale from this shot.

 

 

Finally I wonder how many of the keyboard warriors criticising the scale and clubs actually do any modelling themselves (present company excepted).

[Jeff Smith]

7 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

There was a Thread started about that....

😁😁😁👍👍

 

 

Unfortunately it is not a 'serious' thread.

[meatloaf]

I notice the Easterner set is back in stock on the Hornby site

[Porfuera]

On 10/05/2024 at 23:27, teletougos said:

I think it's reasonable to be concerned about the scale's visibility, which after an initially flurry, has been decidedly patchy. 

 

Maybe you are not looking in the right places because you are not the target for this scale.

 

Advertising is expensive, which is presumably why Hornby are concentrating their marketing of TT:120 on social media rather than using more traditional forms of advertising. I imagine that is also where they think they will find the market that they said they were aiming for, which is new entrants to the hobby. As has been said already, there are plenty of them on Facebook.

 

As far as I can see it all seems to be selling very well, with many items selling out both at Hornby and at retailers.

 

They can't sell more than they can produce so how much more visible does it need to be?

[natterjack]

53 minutes ago, meatloaf said:

I notice the Easterner set is back in stock on the Hornby site

I understand Hornby have introduced some upgrades since launch, notably on loco leading bogies and stock wheel clearances. Is there any identification as to whether a prospective purchase would be from a later 'improved' batch?

[meatloaf]

21 minutes ago, natterjack said:

I understand Hornby have introduced some upgrades since launch, notably on loco leading bogies and stock wheel clearances. Is there any identification as to whether a prospective purchase would be from a later 'improved' batch?

Theyve been out of stock for ages, so id imagine these would be the improved ones

[natterjack]

1 hour ago, meatloaf said:

Theyve been out of stock for ages, so id imagine these would be the improved ones

I was not referring to that set in particular but to any of the Hornby releases- being out of stock now is not much help 2 or 3 years down the line when we may be looking at a range of 'iterations' available on the retail shelves and second hand market.

[Ravenser]

I’ve refrained from further comment until I had chance to watch the videos about Dawlish , (and also because it’s been a murderous week at work)

 

I was initially very cautious because saying things about a project I knew almost nothing about didn’t seem sensible in the circumstance. I’m not subscribed to World of Railways as I already have far too much coming into my email inboxes, and dread taking on more  No reflection is meant on anyone at Warners, but it’s rather disconcerting that this thread – in practice the main place for discussing the new scale on here – reached page 310 with barely a whisper about what should be “flagship of the fleet” for TT:120 at this stage. It’s good to see we now have photos being posted.

 

The layout is crisp and very well-executed with a high standard of modelling, scenically dramatic and it uses some sophisticated and innovative techniques. The members of the team are obviously experienced and capable modellers and conform to our stereotype of “the backbone of the hobby”. The layout is, as I understand it, 10’ x 4’, and a continuous run with sweeping curves and a 6 road fiddle yard at the back. There is no central operating well. As far as I could see the up and down are separate and unconnected circuits, which will have made rewiring them for separate power districts.

 

The layout appeared at Doncaster, and I understand it is at Market Deeping club’s own show at Stamford this weekend. And when the HST appeared   - it looked very very right Dawlish - the HST

 

Hobby picked up on one of my comments:

On 07/05/2024 at 08:08, Hobby said:

 

1. So what is a "layout as we generally know them" but a "developed trainset"!

 

2. Here, I'll  help you find one (though as I said it's taking longer than intended - wiring underway!), though as you say most users of TT120 currently seem to be newer modellers and they favour FB over RMWeb: 

 

 

3. Is there, does it? Where? Other than your post just now please show us!

 

4. As I and others have said we are only 18 months in, what do you expect at such an early stage?

 

 

By “a developed trainset” I mean things that look like the plans in this brochure at page29-33: Hornby brochure

 

That is, an oval of track on a solid board with no scenic break, and no fiddle yard or staging sidings. The single station is not laid out according to railway practice, and prototypical operations aren’t possible.

 

(An aside - on P3 of the brochure there's a graphic comparing the size of a OO, TT:120, and N gauge loco. I think this scotches any idea that people buy in TT:120 because they don't know about N)

 

Now – Dawlish and Hobby’s layout are continuous circuit layouts without a centre operating well. Hobby’s layout will be a line of single boards, and I gather that’s the format of Bregstad, which Les intends to use with his forthcoming British 1/120 scale layout. But they all, as I understand it, have/will have a fiddle yard at the back, and a backscene which stops you seeing it from the front.

 

This raises an issue. A continuous circuit on a single board with sharp return curves is N gauge practice. Les is already flagging that on a 2’6” board (probably the usual limit in depth) Pacifics are faced with an R2 curve and don’t like it. Dawlish uses 4’ x 2’ boards two deep I understand, which negates the benefit of having the whole depth of the layout on a single board, but allows reasonably generous curves which are Pacific friendly. But there’s no central well. Coming from a 4mm background, I think in terms of continuous circuit layout with a central well or round the walls of a room and terminus/fiddle yard layouts on a line of single boards, and wince at pushing Pacifics through R2 curves. You’d be wanting at least 2’6” radius in OO (maybe 2’ off-stage), which equates to about 18” in TT:120.

 

On the other hand TT:120 clearly allows for much more dramatic scenery than 4mm. Squeeze the circuit onto a single board and you have 15”-18” depth of field for the scenic section in N , not a lot better in prototype terms than the 2’ depth of field that you normally get in 4mm. With Dawlish that depth of field is immediately 2’ , which equates to about 3’2” in 4mm (4mm boards are rarely so wide) and the team were even thinking they might go deeper

 

There are  2mm finescale layouts with big scenic depth – Chee Tor , Copenhagen Fields, and the 2mm layout of Kingswear come to mind. But the trains seem to get lost in the landscape. What I remember of Chee Tor is the limestone gorge , not the trains. With TT:120 the trains have twice the volume and therefore speak with a louder voice. You can get big dramatic scenery, but the trains themselves have more presence. It seems a better balance

 

And I’ve not seen any terminus /fiddle yard schemes for TT:120. Sorrento Park is exactly that, and it’s in the same scale. I can’t see why a British equivalent wouldn’t work. But then terminus /fiddle yard layouts seem pretty rare in N. The NGS Journal seems to be running a series of pieces on small N gauge layouts – and they all seem to be continuous circuit. Surely one angle for TT:120 is that an expansive “shelf switcher” should be possible? We have an 08, and a J50 will be along shortly, followed by a 57xx

 

But still:  I initially mentioned Dawlish and the layout I photographed – both projects connected with a magazine . To that add Hobby’s project , and froobyone's layout thread , though on this page he was expressing doubts and verious people were urging him to go N , or even 3mm . I'm glad top see he's pressing on. The layout design thread I mentioned is here: moawark's new layout  It’s still thin pickings from a forum with 44,000 accounts according to Les

 

On Bregstad, in the nicest possible way I’m with Roy LS. And I saw one or two comments from Les a while back suggesting he was having doubts about following through with a British layout. I hope he’s still up for it. Roy himself seems to have cooled a bit from initial enthusiasm, and Keith Addenbrooke who produced the welcome thread in the TT:120 section has gone in another direction according to his blog.  (over and out..) British Columbia is 1 - an existing TT modeller committed to the scale and 2 - overseas, so I can't cite him as evidence of existing British modellers adopting the scale. Present company apart - who's out there??

 

I’m not demanding to see finished layouts, but where are the threads for people starting the journey? Market Deeping knew that an HST and 50 and coaches were coming so they got building. We know whats already committed to, and imminent . “Hornby haven’t done an X yet, its 3 months/12 months away” doesn’t cut it – unless people simply don’t believe Hornby announcements until they see the product in the shops (Which is why I posted the photo of the other layout . There it all is…)

 

As for “serious modeller”, it’s a loaded term and I’m very much with

20 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

‘Serious’ but not serious enough to make anything themselves, or from a kit…

 

The term seems often to be a self-congratulatory pat on the back for members of the finescale movement. But in finescale building your own pointwork and building loco chassis are normal. The late Frank Dyer was a “serious modeller”. He scratchbuilt a large stud of ER steam in the 1950s when there were barely any kits never mind RTR, and built all his own pointwork. Peter Denny scratchbuilt pretty well the lot - EM in the 40s and 50s was much harder than TT:120. People still do construct most of their own stock in 7mm finescale  

 

Where are the threads with people building chassis for Lincoln Locos bodies? Osborn Models have a range of kits.

 

On 08/05/2024 at 11:33, osbornsmodels said:

I am getting a bit tired of reading these circular, negative TT :120 comments. We were trading at the Bristol show last weekend and had a good selection of TT:120 from numerous manufacturers on sale and display including our own kits and figures, (there are plenty out there as well as Hornby).  https://www.osbornsmodels.com/tt-scale-1120-438-c.asp

I have to say there were many people looking, asking, showing interest and yes buying. We should have had more Hornby but that was down to us not ordering enough or being able to get hold of enough.

Will all those not interested in TT:120  give it a rest please and move on to something they are interested in.

Rant over.

 

 

There's an LMS van here Osborn's LMS van kit

 

I’ve not built one myself or done business with Osborns – but the only thread I’ve seen about a build was from Luke Stephens – and Luke seems to have fallen silent, and I can't find the thread (GW Siphon)

 

On 07/05/2024 at 22:33, moawkwrd said:

It’s plainly obvious that if you’re looking for evidence of the scale taking off or whatever, you aren’t necessarily going to find it in places like here for a multitude of reasons.

 

The whole point was to grow the hobby and get new people in - that those people aren’t joining internet forums to document their layouts isn’t surprising, if the demographics are trending younger than with the existing scales.

 

Comments like those dismissing train set operators probably don’t help encourage people either. People do steer clear of here various reasons.

 

 

I am in no way hostile/criticising new entrants and a trainsetr may well be an effective starter package here. But new scales require experienced “serious modellers” to blaze the trail and provide proof of concept. You cannot expect a brand new scale to hand you everything on a plate . You will have to roll up your sleeves and build stuff . Pioneering requires a certain level of skill set. For some, that’s the whole attraction. The new entrants have certainly turned up -   my worry is that the pioneers and “serious modellers” have gone missing. They are needed to provide leadership and inspiration, and show how it can be done

 

Quote

Finally I wonder how many of the keyboard warriors criticising the scale and clubs actually do any modelling themselves (present company excepted).

 

 If anyone believes I don’t myself make anything, workbench and layout blogs are here (and I don’t rise high enough to be called a “serious modeller”)  Workbench and layouts  

 

 

[Jeff Smith]

11 minutes ago, natterjack said:

I was not referring to that set in particular but to any of the Hornby releases- being out of stock now is not much help 2 or 3 years down the line when we may be looking at a range of 'iterations' available on the retail shelves and second hand market.

I think the same has applied to the Mk1 coaches.  Mine in a first batch Easterner has a wheel rub on the supplied track radius.  This was said to be fixed on later batches......

[natterjack]

9 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

I think the same has applied to the Mk1 coaches.  Mine in a first batch Easterner has a wheel rub on the supplied track radius.  This was said to be fixed on later batches......

Whilst we might expect direct supply from Hornby to be of 'latest batch' the same cannot be said from any third party unless clearly stated in their product description, and that is something I have yet to see.