Hornby announce TT:120

[Delta_Who]

Honestly seems like a win-win-win here. Especially considering cost-of-living crisis

[phil gollin]

.

 

Having thought about it for a couple of hours I can't say I have changed my poor impression of the launch.

 

They are, obviously, keeping the prices down.  I think they should have gone for ballasted track (see, for instance, Roco track) and all locos only available as DCC versions (preferably all with sound).    Yes, more expensive, but "the future"  -  as near authentic "plug and play" as we are likely to get.

 

Also, the launch lacked close-up photos/videos of what could be achieved scenically.

 

Still, I can still see the attractions for families living in small homes.

 

.

[bmthtrains - David]

Having had a look through the initial range, what is surprising is they’ve gone for express trains, so long ones basically. Perhaps this is to attract OO modellers as the smaller scale makes them more of an option, but as an N-gauger there’s not much to tempt me as going larger actually makes this more difficult. This may suggest the direction of competition - scaling down not up, which is interesting as it may cannibalise their own OO sales.

 

I’m definitely interested in trying some TT, but I’m not sure what would get me parting money - shorter trains certainly, so maybe a tank engine or similar? At the moment I’m struggling to find an angle that works compared to the benefits of N gauge.

 

David

[melmerby]

2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Without acquiring additional suppliers in China, TT:120 will inevitably absorb a lot of capacity in the factories Hornby currently use for OO production

There's no Arnold TT120 being announce for 2022, maybe that's the capacity they need?

[Allegheny1600]

7 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Small scenic GWR branch line (not BLT) using the PECO buildings. Maybe some GWR stock in the next year or so.

 

However I could do that just as easy in N or 00. That's part of my wondering, what does TT offer that the other gauges doesn't?

 

I've not seen any answers apart from saying it's smaller than 00. So is N and there is already a reasonable amount available in N.

 

I want Hornby (and other manufacturers) to persuade me.

 

 

Jason

For me, one of the biggest selling points is that the scale to gauge ratio is correct.

That and the fact that I could get a quart into a pint pot without having to wear magnifying glasses is a help.

 

However, I think that Hornby aren’t really trying to sell to you!

They’re after people who aren’t already established in the hobby, with large collections in different scales, well okay - a bit but not as their core market.

Maybe they’re after the “millennials” who have made onto the housing ladder but only just, or even still renting a flat or living with parents. What I’m trying to say is those people who don’t have a lot of space but still want to build a layout of their own.

My apologies if this is you, Jason!

[Dunsignalling]

Just now, melmerby said:

There's no Arnold TT120 being announce for 2022, maybe that's the capacity they need?

Outside my experience, but how much volume would that represent?

 

John 

[Steamport Southport]

6 minutes ago, andyman7 said:

It is not possible to sell the right to a trademark in perpetuity if it is not maintained. So whilst the 'Tri-ang' trademark was sold off with the Pedigree prams business when the Tri-ang group was broken up in 1971, it's registration lapsed through non-use and hence it has been available for Hornby to re-adopt - which indeed they have done.

 

I think more pertinent is that the new TT1:120 range bears no comparison to the old Triang range (made to 1:100 scale) and is not aimed at the heritage market so there is no marketing logic in using that name for this range.

 

Not quite.

 

Oxford have had the Triang name for some time.

 

 

Jason

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, phil gollin said:

all locos only available as DCC versions (preferably all with sound).

No No NO.

That puts the initial cost up and sound is still only a minority sport.

[D9020 Nimbus]

3 hours ago, Trains4U said:

The issue comes when the target “Family” get their set, then traipse over to their local model shop to get a new wagon or piece of track and find there is nothing there for them and no support for the products they’ve purchased.

Assuming:

 

1. They have a local model shop. Most cities don't — at least in the centres where you might find them by chance. Newcastle had 5 when I was young, not one now. The nearest is in Gateshead, but you need to look for it; it's on a trading estate but, even though it’s almost next door to a branch of Sainsbury's, you can't see it from the store car park.
2. You know there are such things as model shops. My "local" advertises in the local paper from time to time, but not many people buy or read those nowadays. There are model railway magazines, but you need to know that they exist too. Yes, they're on the shelves in the local WHSmith, but their shops are probably the least attractive on the "High Street"  — the one in Newcastle is certainly poorly lit and dingy-looking. The only city or town in the north that I'm aware of with a model shop that you might find by accident is York; C&M are near the centre of Carlisle but upstairs in a side street with no shop front.

[norfolkchinaclay]

Suddenly had an epiphany..!

 

Of course! Hornby churning out more of the same models from their 00 range now in TT scale to appeal to the “collectors” market, who will buy regardless, so Hornby can duplicate in two scales and sell twice as many models as they do now without having to improve on detail or quality control to compete with the new order of 00 manufacturers.

 

Shame that the considerable factory production capacity the TT models will take up has not been given over to 00 gauge. Perhaps the sign of defeat when it comes to 00??

Edited October 10, 2022 by norfolkchinaclay

[andyman7]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Not quite.

 

Oxford have had the Triang name for some time.

 

 

Jason

Oxford may have started to reuse it first but they and Hornby have a common ownership structure. The key point is that the rights sold off in the 1970s had lapsed. 

[Steamport Southport]

1 minute ago, andyman7 said:

Oxford may have started to reuse it first but they and Hornby have a common ownership structure. The key point is that the rights sold off in the 1970s had lapsed. 

 

Only recently. Oxford have had Triang in the catalogue for about 15 years, well before any Hornby involvement.

 

 

Jason

[Standards_in_OO]

I am tempted by the idea of having TT in the background on a different level on my OO layout to give a sense of perspective. As predominantly a heritage railway modeller, the idea of an HST on a mainline in the distance could bring another dimension to my layout. I have wanted to include trains on different levels on a layout but with todays locos not really dealing well with inclines, this could be the answer.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

Assuming:

 

1. They have a local model shop. Most cities don't — at least in the centres where you might find them by chance. Newcastle had 5 when I was young, not one now. The nearest is in Gateshead, but you need to look for it; it's on a trading estate but, even though it’s almost next door to a branch of Sainsbury's, you can't see it from the store car park.
2. You know there are such things as model shops. My "local" advertises in the local paper from time to time, but not many people buy or read those nowadays. There are model railway magazines, but you need to know that they exist too. Yes, they're on the shelves in the local WHSmith, but their shops are probably the least attractive on the "High Street"  — the one in Newcastle is certainly poorly lit and dingy-looking. The only city or town in the north that I'm aware of with a model shop that you might find by accident is York; C&M are near the centre of Carlisle but upstairs in a side street with no shop front.

That implies a target market that's largely ignorant of model railways in general but with an inclination to suddenly splurge significant money on a new hobby without really checking out the "scene" beforehand.

 

Do such people actually exist?

 

John

[Hobby]

16 minutes ago, phil gollin said:

Still, I can still see the attractions for families living in small homes.

 

Still this comment continues (no disrespect to you, Phil!). There's a lot more to 1:120 scale than small layouts. All of my TT scale layouts have depicted a railway in the scenery,  it has the advantage over 00 on space and allows much more detail than N. So you get the best of both worlds. Yes, it will be an advantage in small homes, but that isn't the sole reason to choose it, in my case that isn't a reason at all.

Edited October 10, 2022 by Hobby

[meatloaf]

If they do allow the likes of argos to sell starter sets then id imagine that it would be a small tank engine and a few wagons to keep costs down

[Solo]

Wow.  Being on LA time I’ve only just read this release.  All I can say is Well Done Hornby.  Fortune favours the brave.  I’m sure with such a big name wading into TT big-time it won’t be long before all sorts of things from the smaller suppliers will be released to match the scale, and there’s already significant product support amongst the continental ranges.  I’m someone (space-starved!) who’s recently switched up to ‘O’ gauge but having also kept a modicum of OO and N stuff on the back burner in order to have something with a bit more scenic development but which will nonetheless fit on a tabletop.  I think this will be the perfect sweet spot for that and can see myself selling off the other two scales and plunging in.

As a diesel modeller I note the ‘08’ is an early release and this is a good idea since many will not have the space for all those express-type trains, though one thing I can’t make out is what the spec of these models will actually be (aside from DCC interface etc) - will they be on the highly detailed camp (as per Heljan’s 31) or something more akin to Railroad?  Hopefully finer scale track will be available to hand-build from somewhere as the offerings from both Peco and Hornby are both very train-set in appearance which is a shame with it being the correct gauge.

[HonestTom]

22 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Small scenic GWR branch line (not BLT) using the PECO buildings. Maybe some GWR stock in the next year or so.

 

However I could do that just as easy in N or 00. That's part of my wondering, what does TT offer that the other gauges doesn't?

 

I've not seen any answers apart from saying it's smaller than 00. So is N and there is already a reasonable amount available in N.

 

I want Hornby (and other manufacturers) to persuade me.

It offers a range of models that will be correctly scaled to the track gauge, something entirely new to commercial British RTR. This is something that many people have said here, and Hornby themselves have said (and Peco, Heljan et al). It's also been discussed many times over in previous threads on the scale.

 

Yes, N is smaller than 00, but smaller size alone is not the only part of the appeal. If that were the case, everyone would have switched over to T gauge. What TT:120 presents is a scale between 00 and N, taking up less space than the former but allowing more detail and being less fiddly than the latter.

 

That's the whole deal. If that doesn't appeal to you, that's fine - you don't have to buy it.

[Legend]

I think this is fascinating and indeed one of the biggest things to happen to model railways for decades .  I hope that other manufacturers get on board to make this a success . I suspect like most things there was knowledge about this amongst the leaders in the market . Simon Kohler says they started work on this in 2017 but he had started talking about it in 2008 . He also said that during his sabbatical that he had talked with other people in the industry, Ben Jones , being mentioned .  So looking back , is it any surprise that Peco announced their TT:120 range . Just hoping there are a fair few other manufacturers who were in the know and are developing plans .

 

For the overall model rail hobby it’s got to be good for this to succeed . 
 

The only reservation I have is that we will be largely dependent on Hornby . They haven’t exactly been behaving in a proper manner recently . Also if it’s a closed market they can do anything to the price . Low to entice you in then in 5 years time bang ! . That’s why I think we need more people behind the scale . Peco is a good sign .

 

Add to that my cynical or sceptical nature about this being for keeps and long term plans etc etc . Well didn’t we hear that about Live Steam , Steampunk, Basset Lowke ranges . Where are they now? This does appear to be “Big Bang” however . Hopefully it will last the course 

[GordonC]

34 minutes ago, Padishar Creel said:

All that MK2 coaching stock for the 50, but no BG or RBR? I do see BR MK1 parcels coach mentioned, so would that least be a BG?

 

es grüßt

pc 

 

I would really have expected a fairly full Mk1 range (BSO, BSK, SK, SO, FO, BG, RMB, RBR/RB, CK, BCK) should be top of a 'to-do' list in any new scale being introduced. I only noticed a couple of those, but may have missed some

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, norfolkchinaclay said:

Suddenly had an epiphany..!

 

Of course! Hornby churning out more of the same models from their 00 range now in TT scale to appeal to the “collectors” market, who will buy regardless, so Hornby can duplicate in two scales and sell twice as many models as they do now without having to improve on detail or quality control to compete with the new order of 00 manufacturers.

 

Shame that the considerable factory production capacity the TT models will take up has not been given over to 00 gauge. Perhaps the sign of defeat when it comes to 00??

Perhaps a little drastic, but it might suggest a pragmatic recognition on Hornby's part that the OO scene has developed in ways that they can no longer keep a lid on.

 

They will always (unless they relinquish it) have a major place in OO, but their dominance has been diminishing for a while, and will inevitably continue to do so.

 

A case of a fish in search of a more comfortable pool, perhaps?  

 

It's also uncertain what proportion of Hornby OO collectors will be interested in anything that's not OO. Most of the people I've known who are/were into old Tri-ang, collect one or the other, not both.

 

John

Edited October 10, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[woodenhead]

34 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Without acquiring additional suppliers in China, TT:120 will inevitably absorb a lot of capacity in the factories Hornby currently use for OO production.

 

Have they found a load more slots, or might the extent of Hornby's OO announcements for 2023 reflect a shift of resources to the new scale?

And Simon Kohler did state no big announcement in January, announcements will be trickled throughout the year which is as per everyone else.  But whether this is all scales are just TT I don't know, I would be cautious of them making a big statement in January about OO when TT is going to be the priority for the foreseeable if early take up is good.

[Steamport Southport]

14 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

For me, one of the biggest selling points is that the scale to gauge ratio is correct.

That and the fact that I could get a quart into a pint pot without having to wear magnifying glasses is a help.

 

However, I think that Hornby aren’t really trying to sell to you!

They’re after people who aren’t already established in the hobby, with large collections in different scales, well okay - a bit but not as their core market.

Maybe they’re after the “millennials” who have made onto the housing ladder but only just, or even still renting a flat or living with parents. What I’m trying to say is those people who don’t have a lot of space but still want to build a layout of their own.

My apologies if this is you, Jason!

 

 

4 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

It offers a range of models that will be correctly scaled to the track gauge, something entirely new to commercial British RTR. This is something that many people have said here, and Hornby themselves have said (and Peco, Heljan et al). It's also been discussed many times over in previous threads on the scale.

 

Yes, N is smaller than 00, but smaller size alone is not the only part of the appeal. If that were the case, everyone would have switched over to T gauge. What TT:120 presents is a scale between 00 and N, taking up less space than the former but allowing more detail and being less fiddly than the latter.

 

That's the whole deal. If that doesn't appeal to you, that's fine - you don't have to buy it.

 

Thanks for trying, but I want Hornby to sell it to me. That's the job of their marketing department.

 

Especially since they've been sending me emails about it all weekend and I appreciate the 15% discount. 

 

Maybe I'm not the target, but there are family members who are right in the demography they are aiming for and one of them wants a train set.

 

 

BTW there is British RTR with correct scale to track ratio. O Gauge.... 

 

 

Jason

 

[woodenhead]

35 minutes ago, bmthtrains - David said:

Having had a look through the initial range, what is surprising is they’ve gone for express trains, so long ones basically. Perhaps this is to attract OO modellers as the smaller scale makes them more of an option, but as an N-gauger there’s not much to tempt me as going larger actually makes this more difficult. This may suggest the direction of competition - scaling down not up, which is interesting as it may cannibalise their own OO sales.

 

I’m definitely interested in trying some TT, but I’m not sure what would get me parting money - shorter trains certainly, so maybe a tank engine or similar? At the moment I’m struggling to find an angle that works compared to the benefits of N gauge.

 

David

I think they are channelling children of the late 50s and early 60s - table top steam express trains - shunting freight was not the priority then, it was mainlines in small spaces.  I believe perhaps they hope to attract them to purchase TT again for their grandchildren maybe, or encourage their children to purchase a trainset for little Tommy.

[SteamingWales]

29 minutes ago, Allegheny1600 said:

However, I think that Hornby aren’t really trying to sell to you!

They’re after people who aren’t already established in the hobby, with large collections in different scales, well okay - a bit but not as their core market.

Maybe they’re after the “millennials” who have made onto the housing ladder but only just, or even still renting a flat or living with parents. What I’m trying to say is those people who don’t have a lot of space but still want to build a layout of their own.

 

This is basically me!!!!

 

Off the top of my head I have 14 locos (either own or on pre-order if that counts) with the main theme being the Cambrian network. Of these only 4 (2x4MT, 1x 6MT, 1x 2MT) are made by Hornby so as a proportion they don't dominate

 

I was born in 1997 so am I a millennial? Can never remember what label I'm given!  I don't partake in Snapchat, Tiktok, Instagram etc. I don't have time to sit scrolling when I have modelling to do 😂

 

I rent a 2 bed flat, though its more like a squashed terrace house than a s#@?ty bed sit type thing

 

I don't have the space for a full size roundy roundy type thing but have settled for a shed scene ~2mx0.6m and can't go any bigger but obviously can't run any trains. It more of a glorified display cabinet 😅

 

Yes. I would like a roundy roundy just to watch trains run around

 

DOES THIS MAKE ME THE TARGET AUDIENCE???????