Hornby announce TT:120

[D9020 Nimbus]

I'm not sure why the Jinty is regarded as the most likely. The J94, 57xx and Jinty all have in common the fact that they would all have to be designed from scratch — it is a long time since any of these were introduced to the range, and the "current" J94 was acquired from Dapol. The only recent 0-6-0Ts in OO from Hornby are the J50 and the "Terrier", and the Terrier is clearly the more marketable of the two. However, there are no Southern coaches even planned.

 

I'd like to see the 57xx ahead of the J94 — it's a more versatile loco that could haul branch-line passenger and freight trains, shunt, and was also used by LT and the NCB. They were also about 16 times more numerous and longer lived in main line company service.

[teletougos]

6 hours ago, natterjack said:

As probably noted elsewhere, Hornby is already trialing the reintroduction of UK plastic moulding production with their recently launched Airfix 1/24 Spitfire.

 

I don't think the situation with precision manual workers in China is likely to change. So not much light for Hornby at the end of that tunnel.

 

But as regards ways out of the dilemma, a moulded aeroplane is a long way from an RTR steam loco. 

Edited March 17 by teletougos
US spelling

[Porfuera]

Cross-post from the HST thread - someone on Facebook was saying that the were able to look at the metadata on the Hornby web site to see the expected arrival dates of forthcoming items so I had a dig around the shop pages and I found the following:

 

This is for one of the TT:120 Blue/Grey Mk3 TSOs - availability date 2nd June (I haven't checked any others):

 

 

And for the Colas Class 66 it is 30th November (again, this is the only one I checked):

 

 

However I guess they are not set in stone and subject to change in either direction.

 

I also found an item that gives the stock levels for anyone that wants to have a dig around, but Hornby might not want that one publicised(!)

Edited March 17 by Porfuera

[Les1952]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I'm not sure why the Jinty is regarded as the most likely. The J94, 57xx and Jinty all have in common the fact that they would all have to be designed from scratch — it is a long time since any of these were introduced to the range, and the "current" J94 was acquired from Dapol. The only recent 0-6-0Ts in OO from Hornby are the J50 and the "Terrier", and the Terrier is clearly the more marketable of the two. However, there are no Southern coaches even planned.

 

I'd like to see the 57xx ahead of the J94 — it's a more versatile loco that could haul branch-line passenger and freight trains, shunt, and was also used by LT and the NCB. They were also about 16 times more numerous and longer lived in main line company service.

 

For the opposite reason I'd like to see the J94 first.  The 75 in LNER/BR service were a minority of the class, 309 others never worked for BR. , The  J94/WD survived in NCB service into the eighties, and were represented at the 150 year celebrations for both the Stockton and Darlington and the Liverpool and Manchester.  

 

As to passenger work, there are 40 of the class preserved (at least three times as many as 57xx) so a goodly number of punters out there are much more likely to have hauled by a WD than a 57xx, or to have seen one working passenger.

 

Les

still deciding whether to build Broken Scar in TT:120 or a different scale- and Broken Scar needs multiple J94s to be a viable project.

Edited March 17 by Les1952
typos as usual

[Hobby]

J94 and Pannier have already been announced so can't be the "surprise" 0-6-0T and of all the other small tanks that's seen as the most likely. But as usual it's simply a guess, we'll see on 2 April.

[009 micro modeller]

4 hours ago, Hobby said:

DCC perhaps?

Actually it might be that. I didn’t check. But would it really add that much on?

 

Edit: the interesting point is that I’d probably expect that from Hornby in 00, but I thought with TT they are generally going for a lower price point. It was an A3 if that makes any difference. I’m too committed to 009 projects at the moment but am still tempted to have a go in TT at some stage.

Edited March 17 by 009 micro modeller

[Porfuera]

1 hour ago, 009 micro modeller said:

Actually it might be that. I didn’t check. But would it really add that much on?

 

Edit: the interesting point is that I’d probably expect that from Hornby in 00, but I thought with TT they are generally going for a lower price point. It was an A3 if that makes any difference. I’m too committed to 009 projects at the moment but am still tempted to have a go in TT at some stage.

 

The Hornby store shows the TT:120 sound-fitted steam locos at £222.99 (the Scotsman is £231.99) while analogue are £167.99. The Next18 decoder is £69.99, so cheaper to buy them DCC fitted than it is to fit them yourself.

 

But I think you can get around 10% off at retailers although there are DCC fitted locos on a certain auction site for around £180 - or possibly less if you make an offer and it is accepted. But obviously there is less selection.

 

On the website the TT:120 HST packs look to be cheaper than the 00 ones (especially the DCC ones) but you can probably get large enough retailer discounts that the difference is wiped out.

 

In any event I don't think they were saying that TT:120 would be cheaper - IIRC someone asked that on one of the livestreams and SK and Carl went through a lengthy reply explaining why they weren't cheaper just because they are smaller.

 

And I was looking at Z Scale on a German retailer the other day and pretty much everything seemed to be about the same price as TT:120 and that's almost half the size.

Edited March 17 by Porfuera

[Ben B]

Out of interest, is the 'mystery 0-6-0' confirmed to be a tank engine, or even a steam loco at all? I genuinely can't remember. I'd be happy if it was something like a 4f.

 

An 0-6-0 diesel does admittedly seem unlikely unless they were doing an 03/04 (firmly Bachmann territory in the parent scale, and would do the same jobs as the 08 anyway), though it does occur to me that Hornby has up to date cads for the Sentinel. Combined with the J94, it would open up a swathe of colourful and long-lived industrial prototypes...

[meatloaf]

Didnt SK heavily hint towards a terrier in the early days of TT?

[Porfuera]

54 minutes ago, Ben B said:

Out of interest, is the 'mystery 0-6-0' confirmed to be a tank engine, or even a steam loco at all? I genuinely can't remember. I'd be happy if it was something like a 4f.

 

Maybe I'm mis-remembering but to be honest I didn't think there was a mystery 0-6-0 in addition to the J94 and 5700 - I thought that unnamed steam 0-6-0s were mentioned in one of the livestreams about a year ago (something like "one in tooling and one about to go to tooling"). Then later, in the July 'Future of TT:220' announcement, the J94 and 5700 were brought forward into Phase 4, replacing the previous Class 60 and 9F that were originally in Phases 3 and 4. So to me those are the two previously-unnamed 0-6-0s.

 

I do seem to remember Jintys and Terriers being mentioned but then SK would never say 'no' to any suggestion brought up in a livestream.

 

And three steam 0-6-0s seems like overkill when there is still so much to do.

 

I guess the only reason would be if they could bring it out imminently (say in the Summer) and then they could keep the J94 and 5700 in Phase 4, which is likely to be 2026 (with Phase 3 being 2025).

 

Roll on the 2nd April!

Edited March 17 by Porfuera

[009 micro modeller]

1 hour ago, Porfuera said:

And I was looking at Z Scale on a German retailer the other day and pretty much everything seemed to be about the same price as TT:120 and that's almost half the size.

To be fair though, Z has always been expensive, still mainly Marklin and you pay for the miniaturisation. T gauge for instance is even smaller but seems generally to be  cheaper than Z.

[GenericRMWebUsername]

2 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Didnt SK heavily hint towards a terrier in the early days of TT?

This is correct. In November of 2022 Simon stated they intended to launch a Terrier at some point. I'm inclined to think that the Terrier would launch alongside some future SR Pacific locomotive. Admittedly, it is possible that the Terrier could be the mystery 0-6-0T... That was actually my original suspicion. But I'm inclined to think it will come later. An SR locomotive would not compliment the Duchesses which are coming in a few months.

 

I'm thinking that Hornby wants a large locomotive and an 0-6-0T for each region ASAP. It gives flexibility for modelers to have more choices in locomotive size. The range would be A3/A4 and J94, Duchesses and Jinty, and Castle and Pannier. 

 

 

8 hours ago, meatloaf said:

Wernt Hornby telling people not to expect much?

You're exactly right once again. Hornby's head of brand, speaking at the Rails of Sheffield event, warned us not to expect anything huge. He told us to expect some new liveries and a few surprises. He reiterated the point at MRS. He might have been underselling the launch, but I'm inclined to take him at face value. 

 

8 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I'm not sure why the Jinty is regarded as the most likely. The J94, 57xx and Jinty all have in common the fact that they would all have to be designed from scratch — it is a long time since any of these were introduced to the range, and the "current" J94 was acquired from Dapol. The only recent 0-6-0Ts in OO from Hornby are the J50 and the "Terrier", and the Terrier is clearly the more marketable of the two. However, there are no Southern coaches even planned.

 

I'd like to see the 57xx ahead of the J94 — it's a more versatile loco that could haul branch-line passenger and freight trains, shunt, and was also used by LT and the NCB. They were also about 16 times more numerous and longer lived in main line company service.

There's no doubt the Jinty is still speculative. But it fits a few things. It compliments the LMS Rolling Stock, it was widespread, and it was in Triang's original TT range. Hornby under Simon was an extremely nostalgic organization. While he is gone, the mystery 0-6-0T was approved under his tenure in early 2023. It's the natural locomotive to go for. 

 

Moreover, in both the Summer and Winter TT magazine, they were teased as reasonable additions to the range. Not confirmation, but it does lend credence. I wouldn't be shocked if it's not a Jinty, but I think it's the highest probability. 

 

2 hours ago, Ben B said:

Out of interest, is the 'mystery 0-6-0' confirmed to be a tank engine, or even a steam loco at all? I genuinely can't remember. I'd be happy if it was something like a 4f.

 

An 0-6-0 diesel does admittedly seem unlikely unless they were doing an 03/04 (firmly Bachmann territory in the parent scale, and would do the same jobs as the 08 anyway), though it does occur to me that Hornby has up to date cads for the Sentinel. Combined with the J94, it would open up a swathe of colourful and long-lived industrial prototypes...

The Sentinel would be a great addition to the range! These ones are known to be tank engines, but I would welcome the addition of 0-6-0 diesel! 

 

"B􏰜ut far and away the most requests are for steam era tank locomotives and the good news is that by this time next year there should be at least three different types in the range. At least one new tank locomotive is planned over and above those already promised in the first four phases of the range development􏰈 but you will have to wait and see what it is􏰑..."

Summer 2023 

 

I'd just add that we should expect some delays on the the timeframe. I think by the end of 2024, we should have one or at best two 0-6-0Ts in the range.

2 hours ago, Porfuera said:

 

Maybe I'm mis-remembering but to be honest I didn't think there was a mystery 0-6-0 in addition to the J94 and 5700 - I thought that unnamed steam 0-6-0s were mentioned in one of the livestreams about a year ago (something like "one in tooling and one about to go to tooling"). Then later, in the July 'Future of TT:220' announcement, the J94 and 5700 were brought forward into Phase 4, replacing the previous Class 60 and 9F that were originally in Phases 3 and 4. So to me those are the two previously-unnamed 0-6-0s.

 

I do seem to remember Jintys and Terriers being mentioned but then SK would never say 'no' to any suggestion brought up in a livestream.

 

And three steam 0-6-0s seems like overkill when there is still so much to do.

 

I guess the only reason would be if they could bring it out imminently (say in the Summer) and then they could keep the J94 and 5700 in Phase 4, which is likely to be 2026 (with Phase 3 being 2025).

 

Roll on the 2nd April!

The Pannier and J94 were in the roadmap from day one. They were initially planned for Phase 4. You can see this screenshot on the Internet Archive Page from November 30th 2022 with both the Pannier and J94 mentioned in the Phase 4.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20221130172709/https://uk.Hornby.com/hornbytt120/future

 

But in this case we do know that at least one additional 0-6-0T has jumped the line. This is the mystery 0-6-0T:

 

In response to demand from modellers, Hornby will also be announcing several additions to its proposed 2024 range. A need for 0-6-0T locomotives for use on goods trains and also to allow operation of end-to- end layouts, is to be addressed with a brand new tank locomotive - details will be revealed next issue.

Summer 2023 

 

"B􏰜ut far and away the most requests are for steam era tank locomotives and the good news is that by this time next year there should be at least three different types in the range. At least one new tank locomotive is planned over and above those already promised in the first four phases of the range development􏰈 but you will have to wait and see what it is􏰑..."

Summer 2023 

 

The three small-tank locomotives are the J94, the mystery 0-6-0T, and the Pannier tank engine. 

[Porfuera]

4 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

The Pannier and J94 were in the roadmap from day one. They were initially planned for Phase 4. You can see this screenshot on the Internet Archive Page from November 30th 2022 with both the Pannier and J94 mentioned in the Phase 4.

 

Surely the original roadmap was the catalogue?

 

My reading of the catalogue is that the J94 and the 5700 were not in Phases 3 and 4 originally, the Class 60 and the 9F were instead - the 0-6-0s were in the bit after Phase 4 that read " Plus, BR Britannia, LMS/BR Black 5, J94,GWR/BR Class 5700 Pannier and much more!" - although even that is open to interpretation as to whether or not that is Phase 4!

 

4 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

They were initially planned for Phase 4. You can see this screenshot on the Internet Archive Page from November 30th 2022 with both the Pannier and J94 mentioned in the Phase 4.

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20221130172709/https://uk.Hornby.com/hornbytt120/future

 

That is interesting - AFAIR the first anyone knew of that page was when @Les1952 posted about it last July. It is hard to believe that it was around for eight months from November to July before anyone noticed it.

 

I know that others have looked for it on the Wayback Machine and not found any reference to it before last autumn so you've done well to find that reference.

 

4 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

Moreover, in both the Summer and Winter TT magazine, they were teased as reasonable additions to the range. Not confirmation, but it does lend credence. I wouldn't be shocked if it's not a Jinty, but I think it's the highest probability.

 

4 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

In response to demand from modellers, Hornby will also be announcing several additions to its proposed 2024 range. A need for 0-6-0T locomotives for use on goods trains and also to allow operation of end-to- end layouts, is to be addressed with a brand new tank locomotive - details will be revealed next issue.

Summer 2023 

 

"B􏰜ut far and away the most requests are for steam era tank locomotives and the good news is that by this time next year there should be at least three different types in the range. At least one new tank locomotive is planned over and above those already promised in the first four phases of the range development􏰈 but you will have to wait and see what it is􏰑..."

Summer 2023 

 

I don't remember reading those items so I probably missed them. From those quotes it certainly looks like there will be three more 0-6-0s, contrary to what I was thinking.

 

So now the question is: when? I still find it hard to believe we will see any of them this year - especially as the Class 66 has been delayed yet again until Autumn and the Class 50 has also recently gone from Spring to Summer I think. Also I can't remember much information lately about the Duchesses even though the website says Spring/Summer (the dates for these are currently showing as 30th May and 5th June, depending on the version). But maybe an 0-6-0 will be a 'surprise' - they are sorely needed, even though I won't be buying one - I'm waiting for the diesels.

 

 It will be very interesting to see what is said in April. Not long to go now!

[Hobby]

8 hours ago, 009 micro modeller said:

To be fair though, Z has always been expensive, still mainly Marklin and you pay for the miniaturisation. 

 

Rokuhan is much cheaper than Marklin and just as good, the Japanese do seem to be able to produce stuff cheaper.

 

6 hours ago, GenericRMWebUsername said:

"But far and away the most requests are for steam era tank locomotives and the good news is that by this time next year there should be at least three different types in the range. At least one new tank locomotive is planned over and above those already promised in the first four phases of the range development􏰈 but you will have to wait and see what it is􏰑..."

 

But nowhere does it say that it's going to be an 0-6-0T...

 

Just saying...

[009 micro modeller]

36 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Rokuhan is much cheaper than Marklin and just as good, the Japanese do seem to be able to produce stuff cheaper.

Agreed, there just doesn’t seem to be as much of a range. To get back on topic, in 1:120 Z equipment could be used to represent 2’ 6” gauge.

[Hobby]

48 minutes ago, 009 micro modeller said:

 To get back on topic, in 1:120 Z equipment could be used to represent 2’ 6” gauge.

 

It is, TTe (or TTn2.5 or TTn30!), I've done three layouts in it, two of which have been in CM! Also N gauge equipment can be used for TTm (TTn3) as well. I have some Shapeways prints knocking around for that one. I found Z to be a bit of a s*d to get running correctly, especially in TTe where speeds are so much slower than you see in SG Z, at least that's where the Rokuhan stuff came in handy, they were nice, smooth, runners when I'd sorted out the controller. Quite honestly my operators and I were glad to get back to 9mm and 12mm gauges! Both show what can be done in TT, though, with railways in the scenery, Alber (the first one) was 6ft long and the other just under 11ft.

 

Edited March 18 by Hobby

[andrewshimmin]

A bit part of me hopes Hornby go maverick and pick a completely unexpected 0-6-0T like the North Staffs four cylinder one, a Brecon & Merthyr saddle tank, or a Highland scrap tank. Go on, Hornby, be heroes....!!! 😉😜😁🤣

[Jeff Smith]

Being lazy about doing the research but any two or three 0-6-0s that have approximately the same wheelbase would logically be candidates - including maybe some tender engines.

[GenericRMWebUsername]

12 hours ago, Porfuera said:

So now the question is: when? I still find it hard to believe we will see any of them this year - especially as the Class 66 has been delayed yet again until Autumn and the Class 50 has also recently gone from Spring to Summer I think. Also I can't remember much information lately about the Duchesses even though the website says Spring/Summer (the dates for these are currently showing as 30th May and 5th June, depending on the version). But maybe an 0-6-0 will be a 'surprise' - they are sorely needed, even though I won't be buying one - I'm waiting for the diesels.

 

Haha I know what you mean! I'm doing an Eastern Region early 1980s layout. I need those Class 47s! 

 

I think there's reason to be optimistic that at least one 0-6-0T is released by the end of the year. Maybe two. We first received news that an 0-6-0T had entered tooling in a (since deleted) Q&A with Simon in January of 2023. We're now 14 months from when we heard that it entered tooling. This locomotive should be the "mystery 0-6-0T." By March, we knew another 0-6-0T had entered tooling.

 

Obviously, production constraints may hamper their launches. But I think these 0-6-0Ts are a priority. It's pretty clear that the 0-6-0T was supposed to be announced in the Autumn magazine. The video released in September also teased a "surprise," but nothing was released. I think Martyn's arrival as head of brand changed things. He seems to have directed the teams not to announce the 0-6-0T until it was closer to production. 

 

The 0-6-0T, the new set, and new liveries of existing products should be sufficient for 2024. The Class 50, Class 66, Duchesses, the LMS coaches, the Mk 2fs, Mk 2es, the HAAs, and the 21 Ton mineral wagons will do the heavy lifting. I could see an additional wagon or two thrown into the mix though. Hornby has already tooled up an MHA wagon. That could be released...

 

11 hours ago, Hobby said:

But nowhere does it say that it's going to be an 0-6-0T...

 

Just saying...

You're right that in that particular quote it's not specifically mentioned it's a 0-6-0T, but from the same issue of the magazine:

"In response to demand from modellers, Hornby will also be announcing several additions to its proposed 2024 range. A need for 0-6-0T locomotives for use on goods trains and also to allow operation of end-to- end layouts, is to be addressed with a brand new tank locomotive - details will be revealed next issue."

 

It seems pretty unequivocal. But you never know! 

 

9 hours ago, andrewshimmin said:

A bit part of me hopes Hornby go maverick and pick a completely unexpected 0-6-0T like the North Staffs four cylinder one, a Brecon & Merthyr saddle tank, or a Highland scrap tank. Go on, Hornby, be heroes....!!! 😉😜😁🤣

🤣

 

So many types of 0-6-0Ts! I'm inclined to think that Hornby is going to go as "generic" as possible with their locomotive choice so it will work on as many layouts and time periods as possible. Unlike OO where there's a huge installed base of buyers to support more unusual prototypes, Hornby has to please as many buyers as possible. Of course, I might be letting my love of "generic" things get in the way of my thinking. 

 

😅

[teletougos]

I don't know much about British steam 0-6-0s. Two questions :

 

What wheelbase measurement (in millimetres) enables most models from the same chassis ? 

 

Will their drive be likely to feature a worm going to centre axle, then rods to power front and rear axle? Or is that more an N thing ? 

Edited March 19 by teletougos

[Hobby]

33 minutes ago, teletougos said:

What wheelbase measurement (in millimetres) enables most models from the same chassis ? 

 

Will their drive be likely to feature a worm going to centre axle, then rods to power front and rear axle? Or is that more an N thing ? 

 

There are several that have similar wheelbases/wheel diameters, but that question leads onto whether modellers are willing to accept the small discrepancies caused by doing a "one size fits all" chassis. Back in the 50s Triang did it in both TT3 and 00 without many complaints but these days? I suspect that most people would accept a compromise of a mm or so but there will be a small, but vocal, minority who will try to tear Hornby to pieces for even dare thinking of doing such a thing!

 

I'd expect any 0-6-0Ts to be the same as the 08 which is centre axle driven.

Edited March 19 by Hobby
Grammer

[teletougos]

2 hours ago, Hobby said:

 

I'd expect any 0-6-0Ts to be the same as the 08 which is centre axle driven.

Potential for use as power bogies probably zero then. Most logical set up tho. Farish are all like that. Dapol have a different arrangement with a gear train, on some of their N 0-6-0s. 

Edited March 19 by teletougos

[Hobby]

Surely you'd be better with a purpose built power bogie like Halling?

[teletougos]

14 minutes ago, Hobby said:

Surely you'd be better with a purpose built power bogie like Halling?

 

Data on mechs is always useful. 

[meatloaf]

HST Train set now up for preorder :

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/high-speed-train-set-tt1004m?clickref=1101lyoc9xDy

 

This train set features the following: a Class 43 HST power car numbered E43063, a Class 43 HST dummy car numbered E43062, two Mk3 TS coaches numbered E42064 and E42065, a transformer, a train controller, a buffer stop, a full curve, a power straight, a standard straight, a 3rd full curve, a left-hand point and a re-railer.

Edited March 19 by meatloaf