Rapido OO Gauge LMS Dia1666 5-plank open

[franciswilliamwebb]

18 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

 

Streuth! Until now I hadn't realised just how inaccurate the Dapol offering is...

[Bucoops]

40 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

OK, so you need to find a one-off van with a very restricted area of operation - it'll sell in the tens of thousands. I suggest this:

 

 

[Embedded link to catalogue thumbnail of MRSC 64634.]

 

I doubt it ever ventured outside of the carriage sidings at Plaistow. But there is a choice of liveries - LTSR, MR, LMS... I believe it survived at least to the 1950s. 

 

It survives to this day at Mangapps :) I presume you meant survived in service?

[Wickham Green too]

... though it's no longer a Vacuum Cleaning Van.

[Gordon Connell]

11 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Visual differences do help - it needs to be different, but not too different.

 

With all of that in mind  what would you make? I’m genuinely interested to here and am always happy for a PM to be sent my way so we can exchange ideas and details…

 

 

I'm sure it's been mentioned before, but let's just say again the double-deck sheep wagons for the Highland - they go with the Jones Goods and they're different but not too different.

 

Gordon

[Aire Head]

On a more serious note I'd personally like to see D663A 5 planks, D607/D673 7 plank wagons and D362/363 10T Vans all from the Midland Railway. All of which were pretty distinctive in design, crop up quite often in photos including into the 50s/60s. Some of these were certainly sold off/loaned out and appear in non railway company liveries. I've definitely seen examples of these wagons in MR, LMS, BR and WD/MOD liveries.

[MarkSG]

11 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Everyone should have more opens than vans but modellers prefer vans to opens. They cost the same to make but people think they get more value with a van.

 

The other big problem with open wagons is that they are, well, open. So there's the question of what to do with that openness. Running a train of empties is unrealistic in most cases. So you typically need to put something in them. That adds to the time and effort involved, and not everybody wants to do that. With vans it's a lot easier because you can't tell the difference, from the outside, between a full and empty van.

 

Also, at a typical goods yard, the opens wouldn't come in with a cargo and then go out again with exactly the same cargo. They'd come in with a cargo, then go out empty or with a different cargo. That's incredibly difficult to model without huge amounts of "Hand of God" intervention, which is probably a step too far for most people. On a roundy-roundy you can do all that in the fiddle yard if you want to (or just have different trains with different combinations of loads), but on a shunting plank it spoils the illusion a bit if nothing ever actually gets loaded or unloaded. And, again, vans don't have that issue, because the loading and unloading can all take place off stage, so to speak.

[MarkSG]

I'll second the motion for some GER opens. But, also, a GER brake van would, as I've already said, be a good choice. They'd be perfect to go with the J70 in any era, but they were built in fairly large numbers, were widely dispersed across the network in LNER days, and many lasted into BR service, so they'd be appropriate for any Eastern region layout and even further afield. 

 

Also, they haven't been done yet by any other RTR manufacturer, as far as I'm aware. Everybody seems to love a GWR Toad, and there are plenty of models of other Big 4 and BR designs. But pre-grouping brake vans are a rarity, despite their length of service in many cases taking them all the way through to the end of steam. So a GER van would be a great way to redress that balance.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Bucoops said:

It survives to this day at Mangapps :) 

 

I didn't know that; I was going on my memory of photos - as it was intended as an obviously absurd suggestion so wasn't being scrupulous in my research. But looking it up in Essery's Midland Wagons, I find that as a suggestion for Rapido it falls down on two counts: there may have been two, as there are photos in LTSR livery as No. 1857 and in LMS livery as No. 1855 (there was also a similar-ish stores van LTSR No. 1856), and it existed at more than one location, as there's a photo of it / one of them as BR Mobile Charging Plant No. 31, M 279962, at Windermere in 1966.

 

Nicely restored, at least externally: 

http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=9311

Edited December 11, 2023 by Compound2632

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

... though it's no longer a Vacuum Cleaning Van.

 

Well that sucks.

 

Oh.

 

Wait...

[41516]

23 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Ah, but you've not costed in the entertainment value provided by what sounds to have been a jolly evening or two upgrading the kit.

 

Priceless? (should Mastercard being involved in the buying stage...)

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

The other big problem with open wagons is that they are, well, open. So there's the question of what to do with that openness. ...

Well, the openness wouldn't be conspicuous on an awful lot of open wagons in traffic - but the necessary sheetedness has yet to be achieved convincingly* by the mass producers ! ☹️

 

* convincingly different for every wagon, of course

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, MarkSG said:

That's incredibly difficult to model without huge amounts of "Hand of God" intervention, which is probably a step too far for most people.

 

I operate to a real-time WTT, and there is a battery Cwmdimbath time clock with an on-off switch so that Cwmdimbath time can be stopped for various reasons, including the sad remnants of the rest of my life, sleeping, going up the pub, wasting time here, that sort of stuff.  But it can also be stopped during operating sessions, proviso no movement takes place during 'downtime'.  The stoppages can be used for the HoG to remove or insert loads from opens &c, but some are effectively vans with their interiors hidden by permanent sheets.  These tend to be the less well-detailed inside.

 

This is a compromise solution and not ideal, and certainly not suitable for exhibition layouts, but I can live with it at home.  I use it to change lamps as well, though I don't necessarily stop the clock for that.  But until we have working, ideally sentient, scale model people to unload goods for us (which will introduce a whole new set of issues), I will put up with it...

 

 

 

 

[Invicta]

4 hours ago, MarkSG said:

I'll second the motion for some GER opens. But, also, a GER brake van would, as I've already said, be a good choice. They'd be perfect to go with the J70 in any era, but they were built in fairly large numbers, were widely dispersed across the network in LNER days, and many lasted into BR service, so they'd be appropriate for any Eastern region layout and even further afield. 

 

Also, they haven't been done yet by any other RTR manufacturer, as far as I'm aware. Everybody seems to love a GWR Toad, and there are plenty of models of other Big 4 and BR designs. But pre-grouping brake vans are a rarity, despite their length of service in many cases taking them all the way through to the end of steam. So a GER van would be a great way to redress that balance.

 

For me, possibly the most useful thing Rapido could do would be to run through providing a matching pre-grouping brake van for each of their forthcoming steam loco releases, we've already got an SECR one for the O1, and you've mentioned GER for the J70, but GNR, NER, LBSC (Didn't Hornby do one years back?) and Highland varieties to hang behind the J13, Y7, E1 and Jones Goods respectively.

[Sitham Yard]

17 hours ago, rapidoandy said:

Everyone should have more opens than vans but modellers prefer vans to opens. 

Andy

I think this is debatable depending on the period modelled. The proportion of vans to opens changed over the years. If you look at the census figures in Table 1 of "An Illustrated History of British Railways Revenue Wagons by Paul bartlett et al (OPC 1985) by 1966 there is not much difference between the total of high goods and the total of goods vans.

 

With regards to new models as far as I know there is not a RTR version of the LMS clasp brake with auxiliary J suspension underframe that suits a goodly number of bodies. With different W irons and axle boxes this was also used for some BR wagons.

Andrew

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Sitham Yard said:

I think this is debatable depending on the period modelled.

 

Not debatable but, as you go on to indicate, a matter of hard fact. At the grouping, covered goods wagons made up around 15% of the wagon fleets of most of the larger companies and that was a significant increase from the situation a quarter of a century earlier. 

[Dunsignalling]

8 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

The other big problem with open wagons is that they are, well, open. So there's the question of what to do with that openness. Running a train of empties is unrealistic in most cases. So you typically need to put something in them. That adds to the time and effort involved, and not everybody wants to do that. With vans it's a lot easier because you can't tell the difference, from the outside, between a full and empty van.

 

Also, at a typical goods yard, the opens wouldn't come in with a cargo and then go out again with exactly the same cargo. They'd come in with a cargo, then go out empty or with a different cargo. That's incredibly difficult to model without huge amounts of "Hand of God" intervention, which is probably a step too far for most people. On a roundy-roundy you can do all that in the fiddle yard if you want to (or just have different trains with different combinations of loads), but on a shunting plank it spoils the illusion a bit if nothing ever actually gets loaded or unloaded. And, again, vans don't have that issue, because the loading and unloading can all take place off stage, so to speak.

Easily solved by a subterfuge employed by a number of friends and acquaintances. It started with coal loads because loaded-in/loaded-out was a general irritant, but gradually grew..... 

 

Unsheeted loads can be built on planked plasticard bases so they can be lifted out of open wagons.

 

Half way through the operating session, during the essential break for tea, cakes and gossip, add/remove loads in the goods yard. Switch entire wagons if loads are "fixed" by ropes, shackles etc., e.g. sheeted opens for unsheeted or empties, loaded bolsters or conflats for empty (or vice versa). 

 

The only drawback is the need for some wagons to be duplicated in loaded/empty form.

 

You could even do it at an exhibition by erecting a board or curtain lettered "INTERMISSION" for a few minutes!

 

John

 

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Dunsignalling
typo

[Caledonian]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

You could even do it at an exhibition by erecting a board or curtain lettered "INTERMISSION" for a few minutes!

 

 

 

I like that 😄

[Bucoops]

Albatross!

[MarkSG]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

You could even do it at an exhibition by erecting a board or curtain lettered "INTERMISSION" for a few minutes!

 

Cue complaints that "nothing was moving...."

[Ramblin Rich]

2 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

..

 

You could even do it at an exhibition by erecting a board or curtain lettered "INTERMISSION" for a few minutes!

 

John

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

Cue complaints that "nothing was moving...."

You need the usher(ette) to come front of house to sell tubs of ice cream 😋

[SR Chris]

Nah .... Stormy petrel on a stick!

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Aire Head said:

On a more serious note I'd personally like to see D663A 5 planks, D607/D673 7 plank wagons and D362/363 10T Vans all from the Midland Railway. All of which were pretty distinctive in design, crop up quite often in photos including into the 50s/60s. Some of these were certainly sold off/loaned out and appear in non railway company liveries. I've definitely seen examples of these wagons in MR, LMS, BR and WD/MOD liveries.

 

Far too sensible: numerous and ubiquitous; not what the punters want, apparently.

Edited December 11, 2023 by Compound2632
semicolon replacing comma.

[Aire Head]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Far too sensible: numerous and ubiquitous; not what the punters want, apparently.

 

🤔

4 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

You could even do it at an exhibition by erecting a board or curtain lettered "INTERMISSION" for a few minutes!

 

I've discovered this is what Push Pull trains are for.

 

When all the goods trains are point the wrong way in the fiddle yard run the push pull out, then rapidly swap everything around in the fiddle yard and if anyone happens to turn up to watch run the push pull back out again 😅

 

Hopefully giving you enough time to swap at least one train around!

[Wickham Green too]

5 hours ago, Invicta said:

... LBSC (Didn't Hornby do one years back?) ...

Er ..... not exactly to current expectations, to put it kindly, ☹️

[Dunsignalling]

2 minutes ago, Aire Head said:

 

🤔

 

I've discovered this is what Push Pull trains are for.

 

When all the goods trains are point the wrong way in the fiddle yard run the push pull out, then rapidly swap everything around in the fiddle yard and if anyone happens to turn up to watch run the push pull back out again 😅

 

Hopefully giving you enough time to swap at least one train around!

But the operation I described is carried out "on stage" to prevent wagons departing the goods yard exactly as they arrived.

 

There's an argument, I suppose,  that it might be unnecessary at exhibitions, simply because nobody watches any one layout long enough to notice.

 

Mind you, on home layout operating sessions, all the load/wagon swapping can be done in the time it takes the kettle to boil.

 

John