Bachmann Xmas announcement Monday

[Phil Parker]

12 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

In terms of strategy I am not saying you are wrong, I honestly do not know, but if N (and especially steam) isn't a priority then I wish Bachmann would stop saying there will be "jam" next quarter while "bouncing" what few steam locos we do know about (J39 and 5MT) from a delivery around now to the middle of next year.

 

Followed by cries of "Why haven't they announced anything in N gauge!!!" They really can't win.

 

Ultimatly, this is a commercial decision which will be based on a number of factors, including the progress each item is making through the factory. I'm not privy to the thinking, and neither is anyone else here. Let's stop guessing. The announcement is what it is, and the next one will be too.

[Din]

16 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

Hi Tom

 

Actually that is factually incorrect, British N is second only to OO in this country in terms of modelling, reportedly about 1/4 to 1/5 the size so not "very minor" as you say. There may be something in what you say about some exiting OO modellers trying 009,  but in terms of market size N is second.

 

Secondly, Bachmann do not have 009 to themselves, Peco (via Kato) produce a FR locomotive plus a lot of rolling stock, Heljan have long produced L&B locos and recently RevolutioN have revealed a V of R 2-6-2 tank loco is to be produced for Model Rail.

 

 

 

 

So in real terms. 20-25% of the size of 00. It's slightly larger than a "niche" scale but really not by much. It also has much stronger competition from more manufacturers who would compete more directly with it with stuff like Dapol  releasing GWR locos etc. Heck, there's even one of their own star designers now working independantly and doing a heck of a job. 

 

And you have listed a grand total of 3 other producers, one of which has never done 009 before (and as said above, steam is not their bag), one which has released two models which had a series of problems with quality control. And one who did well with their single locomotive release, but is a good generation behind in terms of modern "needs" of modellers with no real DCC option.

 

Versus Bachmann who have released numerous 009 models with a consistent high quality and thus are cornering the market and locking it down in terms of quality control and is interchangeable/able to be a "top up purchase" for that market which is 4-5x the size.

 

Someone is looking at the accounts, and seeing one product sells consistently and quickly (thus making a good RoI) while another has likely plateaud or has stronger alternatives for people to shop with.

Edited December 12, 2022 by Din

[MarkSG]

40 minutes ago, Roy L S said:

Actually that is factually incorrect, British N is second only to OO in this country in terms of modelling, reportedly about 1/4 to 1/5 the size so not "very minor" as you say. There may be something in what you say about some exiting OO modellers trying 009,  but in terms of market size N is second.

 

Historically and in terms of installed model base, yes. But if you look at what's actually selling right now, I'm not so sure.

 

Obviously, only the retailers and manufacturers have detailed figures, and they're probably not all that keen to share them. But you can get a fair idea of what's selling by looking at some of the major retailers' websites. Rails, in particular, have a product tag of "Best selling products" (you'll see it on the left of the product page in the Product Information box). Click on that, and it takes you to a display of all the products with that tag. Filter the categories to just locos and rolling stock (so as to exclude, for example, electrics and scenery which are scale-independent). And if you do, what you'll see is more OO9 models in the first few pages than N.

 

That doesn't mean more people are currently modelling OO9 exclusively. I think there's a lot in what nightstar.train says about OO modellers adding a narrow gauge section to an existing OO layout, or doing OO9 as a side project (I have to admit, I've still got a hankering for a classic minimum space rabbit warren layout, and if/when I do get the loft roundy-roundy built then I definitely want it to have a Craig and Mertonford narrow gauge line). But I do think there's good reason to suppose that OO9 is currently the fastest-growing market sector (or, possibly, TT:120, but that's for a different thread). And growth is what manufacturers will be looking for more than absolute userbase size. I think that OO9 currently has a better potential to sell to people who don't already have it than N. And I suspect that's why it's getting priority from the manufacturers.

 

[Philou]

23 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

OO9 currently has a better potential to sell to people who don't already have it than N

 

I agree as one who is in the middle of getting his railway room ready - it has crossed my mind that apart from my modelling two prototype stations, my third station could be a 'what if' Rule 1 with a short section of 009. I had to have a reason for my branch lines to exist in the context of the planned layout - could this be it? Besides which, they are rather cute!

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[D9020 Nimbus]

I'm sure Hornby will be pleased to see the lack of interest at Bachmann in N gauge — it will probably improve the sales of TT-120.

 

As for the number interested in each, how does membership of the 009 Society compare with membership of the N gauge society?

 

There is a limited number of narrow gauge locos that will sell well. Most of them have already been produced, and Bachmann could yet face competition from Kato on the Farlie — depending on how they think it might sell in Japan. No, Kato  don't do DCC, but I'm not convinced it's as big a "thing" in NG circles, and sound isn't going to work that well with small, light 0-4-0Ts.

[Pteremy]

15 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

I'm sure Hornby will be pleased to see the lack of interest at Bachmann in N gauge — it will probably improve the sales of TT-120.

 

 

Another possibility is that Hornby already know that N is not an undiscovered pot of gold - hence the investment in something different.

[RichardT]

2 hours ago, MarkSG said:

Rails, in particular, have a product tag of "Best selling products"

 

2 hours ago, MarkSG said:

what you'll see is more OO9 models in the first few pages than N.

I’m guessing that most of those posting comments about N in response to Roy LS’s observations are 00 modellers or collectors who, naturally, aren’t very interested in N and are applying the norms of the 00 market.

 

This isn’t about wanting loads of brand-new tooling models.  Compared to Revolution, Sonic, Rapido and Dapol, Bachmann occupy the “Hornby” position in British N, owning a comprehensive range of existing tooling for a wide variety of British N models. But they hardly use any of it!

 

I’m not sure a lot of 00 enthusiasts realise just how few Farish items are now available to buy, which gives us a self-fulfilling prophecy: there’s little available to buy, so not much gets sold, so it doesn’t appear on best selling lists, so “N is a tiny market”.  

From the Farish items that have been offered recently - very niche liveries, or limited editions allocated only to retailers in specific sales areas  - it sometimes looks as if they are trying to cultivate the same kind of collectors market in N as exists in 00. People who will buy a model “just because” or “it looks cute” and often never take it out of the box. The problem is that this collectors’ market in N stubbornly refuses to materialise! So the niche liveries end up in the bargain bin, providing more “evidence” that “N doesn’t sell”.  

Meanwhile the core locos, carriages and wagons in the common liveries needed for realistically modelling a railway simply aren’t available to buy, despite the tooling existing.  If you can’t buy a reasonable representative range of stock in a reasonable timescale, then the scale is going to decline.  But while Bachmann holds onto its British N tooling, especially its extensive N steam loco range, and doesn’t do anything with it, no other manufacturer is going to take the chance on duplicating a model Bachmann “owns”.  This has already happened. Following the Farish/Dapol B1 duplication, Dapol announced an LNER J72 tank engine in N, Bachmann announced a Farish one, Dapol withdrew…and the Bachmann one was then cancelled. (With the announcement of Rapido’s “Peaks”, perhaps this scenario is changing.)

 

I can quite see that from Kader’s perspective, with a variety of model ranges in its portfolio and heavy competition for production line slots, cranking out items that appeal to the current 00 collectors market will be more profitable than maintaining a comprehensive range in N over a five year cycle.

 

But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t a profit to be made from British N at all: just that those profits are too relatively small for a company the size of Kader. If Bachmann aren’t going to do anything with their Farish range other than use it to stifle emerging competition, then I’d rather they were honest about their intentions, got out of British N, and sold the tooling to another manufacturer who is interested in serving that market.

RichardT

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2022 by RichardT
Spelling

[didcot]

I've been dabbling with OO9 since a teenager in the early 80s. I've got a number of white metal kits, but the lack of an Arnold or Ibertren chassis really scuppered progress. When I did manage to get them I was a bit disappointed by the proportions and running qualities. Certainly no outside crank chassis for Hunslets at that time. In the last couple of years the rtr market has exploded and I'm grateful for that. I can now fulfill my modelling dreams with a OO9 layout that goes under our bed. 

[No Decorum]

17 hours ago, Roy L S said:

 

I wish Bachmann would stop saying there will be "jam" next quarter while "bouncing" what few steam locos we do know about (J39 and 5MT) from a delivery around now to the middle of next year.

 

Regards

 

Roy

 

 

You had me bouncing around! J39? What have I missed? They were announced in 2015 as an old tooling with an updated chassis and I was very disappointed when they were later cancelled. It turns out it’s in N. How do I get the cork back into the champagne bottle? If the LNER V1 and V3 sell well, you never know. I’ll be doing my bit.

[Les1952]

12 hours ago, No Decorum said:

You had me bouncing around! J39? What have I missed? They were announced in 2015 as an old tooling with an updated chassis and I was very disappointed when they were later cancelled. It turns out it’s in N. How do I get the cork back into the champagne bottle? If the LNER V1 and V3 sell well, you never know. I’ll be doing my bit.

 

I think he meant the N gauge J39 and 5MT, both re-runs of excellent existing models.  The only problem with the J39 is the insistence on modelling the stepped out 4200 gallon tender, which only ever graced eight of the class and four of those lost them to new V2s before WW2 leaving only four to run with them in BR colours- and only one of these gained a late crest.  I have/had five J39s.  The only reason I never had a 5MT was they  mostly didn't appear on my patch, and with nine B1s I didn't need one....

 

Les

with RSI and arthritis not getting better the move to TT is looking more entrancing.

Edited December 13, 2022 by Les1952
typos as usual

[The Johnster]

On 12/12/2022 at 17:36, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

There is a limited number of narrow gauge locos that will sell well. Most of them have already been produced,

 

I'm not sure I agree with this, but I'm not sure I disagree with it, either.  The existing prototypes are of well-known 2' gauge locos, but unless you are modelling the FR, or the L & B, you have to find Rule 1 excuses for some of them.  Only the Baldwin and the quarry Hunslets are really suitable for anything else.  Leek & Manifold?  Talyllyn? Corris? Bowater's?  Campelltown and Macrahanish? Bagnalls? Simplexes? Fat little gasworks Pecketts? Rheidol?  All prime fodder for 009 development, and the original Talyllyn locos (admittedly there is a gauge compromise, but hey, my layout is 00, who am I to complain) are not so much attractive as out and out loco porn.

 

And that's just locos; there is an untapped well of passenger stock from the above-mentioned railways as well, and the Leek & Manifold transporter wagons.  Or, to get a bit further off the wall, how about Auhagen Feldbahn based 18" gauge Crewe/Horwich locos, which could start a whole new genre of industrial micro layouts set inside factory buildings...

 

Then there's the  2'6" and 3' gauge, mostly Irish with a bit of Manx, Suffolk, and North Devon, but possibly a use for TT track and mechs.  Oh, and kudos points to the first RTR manufacture who produces a fully operational dual gauge Guiness St James' Brewery system with correct 5'3" gauge running, or maybe using 00 track in 3mm scale, driven from the narrow gauge loco.  Ok, nurse, I'll take the nice medication now!

[tomparryharry]

Not in my eyeline, but here goes...

 

Seeing as NG is the current flavour, I'd suggest  either an NG13, or NG16 Garrat.  Any of the Rheidol locomotives, but I think the purists will give it a tough time.

 

Or how about VoR number 10?  Possibly the last narrow gauge locomotive ordered by British Rail?  Built in Pant Workshops (Merthyr).  I got to complete its running-in mileage before its departure for Aberystwyth.  

 

Me? Biased? Never!

Edited December 17, 2022 by tomparryharry

[Roy Langridge]

2 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Any of the Rheidol locomotives, but I think the purists will give it a tough time.

 

See:

 

 

Roy

[tomparryharry]

Sorry, my mistake!

 

I haven't been keeping attention to what's going on, I guess.

[Butler Henderson]

The annoucement was just in time to make the Jan issue of Model Rail (sub copy arrived today) but seems they made 2+2=5 and have said it has a pony truck. Hope not too many definately wanting the 2-4-0 version order it on the basis of that.

 

[didcot]

Wonder if anyone will tackle the Snowdon locomotives with rack and pinion. 

[Butler Henderson]

Wasn't their a mock up from Hornby a few years back of a rack and pinion.

[NHY 581]

1 hour ago, Butler Henderson said:

Wasn't their a mock up from Hornby a few years back of a rack and pinion.

 

 

You're thinking of the Steam Punk debacle. 

 

 

[Ravenser]

On 15/12/2022 at 16:49, The Johnster said:

 

I'm not sure I agree with this, but I'm not sure I disagree with it, either.  The existing prototypes are of well-known 2' gauge locos, but unless you are modelling the FR, or the L & B, you have to find Rule 1 excuses for some of them.  Only the Baldwin and the quarry Hunslets are really suitable for anything else.  Leek & Manifold?  Talyllyn? Corris? Bowater's?  Campelltown and Macrahanish? Bagnalls? Simplexes? Fat little gasworks Pecketts? Rheidol?  All prime fodder for 009 development, and the original Talyllyn locos (admittedly there is a gauge compromise, but hey, my layout is 00, who am I to complain) are not so much attractive as out and out loco porn.

 

And that's just locos; there is an untapped well of passenger stock from the above-mentioned railways as well, and the Leek & Manifold transporter wagons.  Or, to get a bit further off the wall, how about Auhagen Feldbahn based 18" gauge Crewe/Horwich locos, which could start a whole new genre of industrial micro layouts set inside factory buildings...

 

Then there's the  2'6" and 3' gauge, mostly Irish with a bit of Manx, Suffolk, and North Devon, but possibly a use for TT track and mechs.  Oh, and kudos points to the first RTR manufacture who produces a fully operational dual gauge Guiness St James' Brewery system with correct 5'3" gauge running, or maybe using 00 track in 3mm scale, driven from the narrow gauge loco.  Ok, nurse, I'll take the nice medication now!

 

 

Talyllyn is spot on for OO9. at 2'3" Its all the 2' stuff that has a gauge compromise. Also decent models of the locos have been done by Bachmann as part of the Thomas range.

 

Anything 3' would be more likely to come from Hornby at some time in the medium term , as OOn3 on 12 mm track is the accepted solution , and Hornby have committed themselves to 12mm gauge..

 

Simplexes might have potential though

[JeremyC]

On 19/12/2022 at 18:43, didcot said:

Wonder if anyone will tackle the Snowdon locomotives with rack and pinion. 

Locomotives similar to the Snowdon ones have been done in HO

https://shop.ferro-train.com/hallingShop/product/home/zahnradbahn

Not cheap though!