In the real world I cannot ever recall...

[Dunsignalling]

16 minutes ago, 2ManySpams said:

Small layouts that have to have one of every traffic generating feature crammed into an unfeasible track plan and special trains serving each one.

 

A dairy for the milk train.

A coal merchant for the coals.

A cattle dock for the cows.

A clay dries for the clay train.

A harbour for the fish Tain.

A coal mine or merchant for the coal train.

A fuel depot for the tanker train.

Etc...

 

 

As well as the converse, wagons turning up in goods yards that lack the facilities to handle them, tanks and hopper wagons are the most common "howlers", but also Conflats where there is no crane to unload them, etc.

 

John

Edited April 18, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[russ p]

Rather than seeing  but more hearing.......

Sounds frond inside the cab or coaches booming out on dcc sound.  Buzzers on DMUs is a prime one. Imagine the poor driver if when the guard gives him two on the buzzer it's louder than the bloody horn!

Two red lights on green or pre 81 blue diesels.... red lights on any green DMU...... LED marker lights that rival the sun for luminosity!  

Rant over I know it's personal choice but I don't see the point in modelling things that aren't there or don't happen. 

Now off to paint my 31s in LNER apple green!

[wagonbasher]

20 hours ago, Talltim said:

Cleanliness is not to godliness.

 

Andy

[Oldddudders]

27 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

As well as the converse, wagons turning up in goods yards that lack the facilities to handle them, tanks and hopper wagons are the most common "howlers", but also Conflats where there is no crane to unload them, etc.

Well, yes, but local trips might work wagons to/from the yard, not for unloading/loading, but to be attached to a later train heading up country. I accept that this implies a heroic assumption that freight traffic is planned on such layouts......

[wagonbasher]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

If we are discussing obscure station access, does Lympstone Commando deserve a mention?

Why.  I know it was a commando training camp and you had to have business with the camp.  Did you have to use grappling hooks with ropes and scale an 80 foot cliff with a hunting knife in your teeth?

 

Andy

[Oldddudders]

6 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

Why.  I know it was a commando training camp and you had to have business with the camp.  Did you have to use grappling hooks with ropes and scale an 80 foot cliff with a hunting knife in your teeth?

Not as far as I can see when my train has stopped there in recent times. But there really aren't many stations where some people are welcome to alight and the rest of us aren't. Hoo Junction Staff Halt (only the first coach would be alongside the platform) this isn't. 

[Bucoops]

26 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

Why.  I know it was a commando training camp and you had to have business with the camp.  Did you have to use grappling hooks with ropes and scale an 80 foot cliff with a hunting knife in your teeth?

 

Andy

 

Sounds like Stratford on any normal day.

[BachelorBoy]

2 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

 

Moreover this is not new - when the Windrush generation came over in the 60s they tended to reside in clumps so to speak (mainly due to racism on the part of property owners) .

 

Anything set in parts of West London from the 1970s for example should have a large Asian contingent while parts of south London would have a large Afro Caribbean makeup in terms of figures.

 

To be prototypical, model railways from the 1950s onwards should actually have a lot more black people as BR was the main employer of immigrants from the Caribbean for a few decades.

 

 

 

 

[Reorte]

5 minutes ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

To be prototypical, model railways from the 1950s onwards should actually have a lot more black people as BR was the main employer of immigrants from the Caribbean for a few decades.

Like everything else it'll depend upon exactly where you're modelling as well as when.  There are still huge variations across the country, it's impossible to reasonably generalise.

[DaveF]

Sadly as yet most manufacturers of model people still have most people as "white" but you can always repaint them, as I have in the past.

 

Out of interest I looked up the statistics for some of the towns/cities where I have lived or worked, the figures are from 2011or later.  Note it appears that siome figures are rounded to the nearest 0.1% so they do not always add up to 100%

 

Manchester - white 76.4%, Asian13.5%, Black  4.7%, MIxed 3.1%, Other 2.4%

 

Basildon - White 87.5%, Black 4.8%, Asian 4.3%, Mixed 2.6%. Other 0.9%

 

Blyth - White 97.3%, Asian 1.1%, Black 0.3%, Arab 0.3%, Mixed/other 1%

 

Grantham - White 96.3% ,  Asian 2%, Black 0.6%, Mixed/other 1.1%

 

Newcastle - White 85.6% ,  Asian 7.3%,  Black 2%, Chinese 2%, Mixed/other 1.5%

 

UK (2011 figures) - White 85.4%, Asian 7.8%, Black 3.5%, Mixed/other 2.4%

 

Obviously it is very dependent on where your model represents and the time period but it would be a lot better if the mix was "right" for the area and time.

 

To be honest it is the same for farm animals, crops, types of trees and so on.  Even vehicles can differ, country areas tend to have a diferent mix from towns and cities.

 

It all comes down to two things - use your eyes and for places where you don't live or other periods use as large a collection of photos as you can for information.

 

David

[Hroth]

4 hours ago, russ p said:

LED marker lights that rival the sun for luminosity! 

 

Heljan were slated for having lights on their pilot scheme locos that were dim, particularly the Metro-Vick Type 2 (Class 28).  I thought they looked just about right!

[BachelorBoy]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

Like everything else it'll depend upon exactly where you're modelling as well as when.  There are still huge variations across the country, it's impossible to reasonably generalise.

 

Fair points. But I expect there's information in censuses, official statistics, etc that to could improve the prototypicality of layouts.

 

Perhaps some of the modelling mags could help by doing some research?

 

Three-D scanning and printing is improving the quality and realism of model people immensely and improving layouts.

 

Getting figures with the right clothing right for the period or area is now much easier.

 

It's a no-brainer, surely, to want to make sure the racial mix is authentic too.

 

 

 

 

[BachelorBoy]

17 minutes ago, DaveF said:

Sadly as yet most manufacturers of model people still have most people as "white" but you can always repaint them, as I have in the past.

 

Out of interest I looked up the statistics for some of the towns/cities where I have lived or worked, the figures are from 2011or later.  Note it appears that siome figures are rounded to the nearest 0.1% so they do not always add up to 100%

 

Manchester - white 76.4%, Asian13.5%, Black  4.7%, MIxed 3.1%, Other 2.4%

 

Basildon - White 87.5%, Black 4.8%, Asian 4.3%, Mixed 2.6%. Other 0.9%

 

Blyth - White 97.3%, Asian 1.1%, Black 0.3%, Arab 0.3%, Mixed/other 1%

 

Grantham - White 96.3% ,  Asian 2%, Black 0.6%, Mixed/other 1.1%

 

Newcastle - White 85.6% ,  Asian 7.3%,  Black 2%, Chinese 2%, Mixed/other 1.5%

 

UK (2011 figures) - White 85.4%, Asian 7.8%, Black 3.5%, Mixed/other 2.4%

 

Obviously it is very dependent on where your model represents and the time period but it would be a lot better if the mix was "right" for the area and time.

 

To be honest it is the same for farm animals, crops, types of trees and so on.  Even vehicles can differ, country areas tend to have a diferent mix from towns and cities.

 

It all comes down to two things - use your eyes and for places where you don't live or other periods use as large a collection of photos as you can for information.

 

David

 

Thanks for the research. Good points.

 

 

 

[MarkSG]

On 16/04/2023 at 07:53, Dunsignalling said:

I somehow think that Tension Locks are just too entrenched in OO to be displaced entirely, though casual perusal of layout photos in the monthly mags suggests that after T/Ls, Kadees are now about equal with Sprat & Winkles as the most-favoured aftermarket auto-coupler.

 

That's a big growth in Kadee usage for British outline since I bought my first packets back in 1992, due in no small measure, I suspect, to the availability of of NEM-fit versions.

 

I've exprimented with Kadees, but I've come to the conclusion that they just look too wrong for a steam-era layout. And yes, I know that tension locks are equally wrong. But it's a different kind of wrong.

 

The problem with Kadees, for me, is that they're designed to look like a prototype knuckle coupler with steam pipes. Which, on a diesel or electric loco, is fine. But on a rake of steam-hauled wagons, that, in real life, would have been loose or screw coupled, they look anachronistic.

 

Tension locks, on the other hand, don't try to mimic a prototypical coupling at all, and modern versions do their best to be discreet. So it's actually easier to get away with the "willing suspension of disbelief" (which is essential in any model) with tension locks than it is with Kadees.

[Phatbob]

On 16/04/2023 at 04:23, BachelorBoy said:

2) Black and South Asian people

Again, I plead not guilty M'Lud.  I've finally found a picture of Mr and Mrs Singh waiting for a train at Severn D'Wharves.

[Dunsignalling]

6 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

 

I've exprimented with Kadees, but I've come to the conclusion that they just look too wrong for a steam-era layout. And yes, I know that tension locks are equally wrong. But it's a different kind of wrong.

 

The problem with Kadees, for me, is that they're designed to look like a prototype knuckle coupler with steam pipes. Which, on a diesel or electric loco, is fine. But on a rake of steam-hauled wagons, that, in real life, would have been loose or screw coupled, they look anachronistic.

 

Tension locks, on the other hand, don't try to mimic a prototypical coupling at all, and modern versions do their best to be discreet. So it's actually easier to get away with the "willing suspension of disbelief" (which is essential in any model) with tension locks than it is with Kadees.

I just look at Kadees as an upgraded and smaller version of the Dublo/Peco items of my youth.

 

Once used to them, the brain makes them "disappear" better than most of the alternatives.

 

John

Edited April 18, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[F-UnitMad]

18 minutes ago, MarkSG said:

The problem with Kadees, for me, is that they're designed to look like a prototype knuckle coupler with steam pipes.

Pedant alert - it's the air brakes pipe. Of course it can be snipped off, but then the magnetic uncoupling feature is lost - although many, myself included, don't use it as it introduces the unrealistic "Kadee shuffle".

I am with you on Kadees looking a bit too wrong on UK steam locos & wagons, though, which is one reason I moved up to 7mm some years ago now. The fact is that with most (all?) full-size couplings some form of human intervention is required, even for buckeyes. So no model coupler is going to be 100% accurate, & personally I think totally hands-free uncoupling is as unrealistic as the 'hand of god' if people really want to get annoyed about it. 😆😉

[phil_sutters]

6 hours ago, Hal Nail said:

Exchange Square, one of the office blocks straddling the tracks at Liverpool Street, is hung from the huge steel arch on its face.

 

I try not to think about it when passing a few cm underneath!

If you can see past the moggy Minors -

Photo exhibit 1 - part of said office block  

 

Photo exhibit 2 - turn through 180 degrees and there is Liverpool Street station. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by phil_sutters

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, BachelorBoy said:

 

To be prototypical, model railways from the 1950s onwards should actually have a lot more black people as BR was the main employer of immigrants from the Caribbean for a few decades.

 

 

 

 

 

As has been said, much depends on location, the Windrush generation tended to huddle together for warmth and in any case were restricted in where they lived by racist landlords.  They were looking for work, which meant they headed for urban and industrial areas. 

 

My problem with people (I mean 4mm scale ones, my problems with real people are a whole nother story) are that those avaialble for 1950s layouts tend to be tall, handsome, well-dressed Home Counties types, even the workers.  The reality in the South Wales mining valleys where Cwmdimbath lived was very different; things were not as bad as they'd been before the war, but years of hardship, poverty, poor diet, poor housing, and indifferent or non-existant health and social care had taken their toll.  Nobody was well dressed on a weekday, though the demobs came out for chapel  on Sunday and the women made an effort on Saturday if they were going into Bridgend shopping or to Porthcawl with the kids, who were all in handmedowns.  All adults wore some sort of head covering or they'd catch their death of cold, clothing was dull and drab, especially the mens', and the populace had a tendency to be either thin and wiry or overweight and rotund.  They were shorter than the Home Counties types, and H0 figures are suitable, and tended to be stunted, a little deformed, 'huddled masses yearning to be free' in general, steerage passengers; nobody makes them in model form.

 

I work to the assumption that everybody in the village could hear the train coming up the bank and there are therefore no passengers hanging around on the platform; they stay by the fire until the last minute.  My people are therefore mostly railwaymen or other workers, and are far too tall and handsome, but it gets around the 'passengers waiting, train arrives, train departs, same passengers still waiting' scenario. 

 

Another exhibition layout moan; cars bumper to bumper in everlasting traffic jams.  Even in slow moving heavy traffic there is usually at least a car-length between vehicles, and ift they are supposed to represent urban traffic that is reasonably free moving at 20-30mph, you need three or four car-lengths at the minimum.  Go outside and have a look on your local main road; traffic isn't as heavy as you think, even in rush hour! 

 

Or Faller system HGVs or buses hurtling around urban corners or narrow country lanes at high speeds; really spoils the effect!  1950s lorries were underpowered and usually overloaded, and not capable of such performances anyway; hours of my childhood were spent stuck behind them in the family Prefect, father fuming at the delay but no chance of overtaking, crawling at walking pace up hills with queues behind them.

 

Dim the lights and slow the lorries down, guys, please!

Edited April 18, 2023 by The Johnster

[F-UnitMad]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

road; traffic isn't as heavy as you think

Really does depend on where you live!! 😉

As an ex-HGV Driver my gripe with model trucks is when they are placed in locations they couldn't possibly get into in reality, and trust me I got in some pretty tight places with a 44ton artic, but there are limits!! Often it's parked semi trailers that irritate me - placed with no room for the tractor unit in front, either dropping it off or to couple up.

[tomparryharry]

7-plankers with a 66? Yessss.  Go on, think about it.... People tend to misplace the human element sometimes. People on a platform, but the train is on the other side.... Niche time! Welsh coal wagons, but in the wrong valley to which they apply. A bit picky, perhaps, but it's just me, I guess.  Wrong signals in the wrong places, and facing the wrong way, to boot.

 

Though, to be honest & fair these so-called 'howlers' do all of us a favour. They allow us to think 'I wouldn't do that' and hopefully avoid the pitfalls.  I can easily think of exhibition layouts where bridges are built upside down (yes, I mean that). But! We should always use the term 'Observation' and never, ever openly criticise. 

 

I'm off to see if a  Triang Polly is really faster than a Ho  Bullet Train, with a working  WC.... 

[Nick C]

8 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

Heljan were slated for having lights on their pilot scheme locos that were dim, particularly the Metro-Vick Type 2 (Class 28).  I thought they looked just about right!

Real transition-era Diesel tail lights are virtually impossible to see in daylight unless you're right behind them...

[tomparryharry]

To paraphrase a well-known comedy sketch....

 

"WHAT? THREE Flying SCOTSMANS?

 

"Well, I thought the other two would balance the middle one..."

[Binky]

People reading the newspaper on the toilet with the door open!

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, DaveF said:

Out of interest I looked up the statistics for some of the towns/cities where I have lived or worked,

Birmingham 2022

 

 

White: British 53.1%

White: Irish 2.1%

White: Gypsy or Traveller 0.0%

White: Other 2.7%

White Combined total 57.9%

Asian: Indian 6.0%

Asian: Pakistani 13.5%

Asian: Bangladeshi 3.0%

Asian: Chinese 1.2%

Asian: Other 2.9%

Asian Combined total 26.6%

Black: African 2.8%

Black: Caribbean 4.4%

Black: Other 1.7%

Black Combined total 9.0%

Other: Arab1.0%

Other: Any other ethnic group1.0%

Other Combined total 2.0%

 

However next door

Bromsgrove District Council

 

White:  93.1%

Asian:  3.2%

Mixed:  2.4%

Black: 0.8%

Other: 0.5%

 

Of the Asians there are more Sikhs in Bromsgrove, than Buddhists, Muslims or Hindus.

 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by melmerby