Hornby LWB van - can the ugly duckling be transformed into a swan?

[41516]

4 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

(applying the 3 foot rule)

 

So I don't need to get a friend to help tread on it?

 

3 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi, I think you need to scratch build a new roof rather than trying to make the old one fit.

 

We'll see.  I'm not going to be doing anything too serious, in keeping with the thread. What I have done is hopefully provide some notes and thoughts for others as a springboard for creativity.   I'm surprised no-one has suggested chopping the bodies to make containers yet!

 

 

[41516]

For this one, I'm leaning into the roof curve.  Currently sitting on a Airfix 16T mineral chassis, minor whoopsey in measuring....

 

 

 

Sides and spare roof bit ready for another day.... Or do I use the doors on this perhaps, keep more of it 'original' (stop laughing).

[SteveyDee68]

4 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

However much you fettle it, the supplied chassis still going to be Triang tiptoes

Now, that is something I hadn’t considered! 🤔

 

I have some older Hornby tank wagons that use the same chassis, so will check those against a Bachman wagon for buffer height.

 

I am starting to understand why nobody bothers attempting to improve these!

 

However, it’s all a bit of fun, and if somehow anything vaguely realistic in any way results then that is a bonus!

 

Steve S

[Ravenser]

On 29/05/2023 at 14:00, SteveyDee68 said:

I

 

But, I wonder, has anybody actually done anything to “improve” them to make them slightly more believable? For instance, shortening the chassis?

 

Asking because these can be picked up so cheaply and if a half believable wagon can be achieved with little outlay then surely some use can be made of them before resorting to sending them to landfill?

 

Steve S

 

 

 

The chassis is more use than the body . Various new bodies were built on TTA chassis: I've a feeling I've still got one of Jon Hall's resin POA Blackadder bodies in need of a TTA chassis

 

If anyone can identify a credible prototype for the body, building a new chassis underneath it and reusing the original chassis elsewhere  might make sense

[Paleopotato09]

Looking at the long chassis it might be possible to use it like the vans the Middleton railway turned into carriages.

[21C123]

A friend of mine shortened one and painted it grey to turn it into a Blue Circle Cement van. I’ll see if I can find a picture. 
 

Roger

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

 

Here's one I did earlier!

 

 

 

Mike.

[Talltim]

2 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

 

Here's one I did earlier!

 

 

 

Mike.

Trying to work out which of the rivets you used from the original

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Talltim said:

Trying to work out which of the rivets you used from the original

 

3 across 2 down!

 

Mike.

[kevinlms]

21 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Forgot about the Heinz van. There might be one of those about somewhere....

 

But I agree with stopping the knocking. Lima, Wrenn, Graham Farish, etc were doing exactly the same thing at the time most of these came out.

 

Dapol is still doing it, Rapido have made a few fictional items as have KR Models, Bachmann have had their moments. Hattons have released fictional carriages.

 

Yet it's only Hornby that get mocked? Seems totally unfair to me.

 

Anyway. Here's a Yellow Pages one. 500 made for BT.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=1642

 

 

 

Jason

No all those other brands got knocked for doing the same thing. They are cheap to produce, because they just do another batch on the moulds and great for train sets, at least for the manufacturers.

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, Moxy said:

 

I think it's older than that, the body moulding dates from at least 1974, before they took over Lima or Jouef.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=419

According to that 18,000 produced and for sets, not individually.

[Flying Pig]

13 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

The chassis is more use than the body . Various new bodies were built on TTA chassis: I've a feeling I've still got one of Jon Hall's resin POA Blackadder bodies in need of a TTA chassis

 

If anyone can identify a credible prototype for the body, building a new chassis underneath it and reusing the original chassis elsewhere  might make sense

 

But the chassis is unashamedly Triang-Hornby in style, so unless you want another trainset wagon it is of little use.  Nothing wrong with that of course, but you'd be better getting going with the plasticard and spares box if you wanted some variety, rather than trying to use it for scale models.

 

The body is probably not going to match any prototype, so it would be a case of imagining a mid 1960s to 1970s neverwazza.  Tail traffic on the Hastings route perhaps.  

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, kevinlms said:

According to that 18,000 produced and for sets, not individually.

 

White and Red for the 1974 train sets.

 

Then a different version in 1976 still in White and Red. Found in both trains sets and general sale.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=836

 

Later released in Blue and White which seems the most common of the Kellogg's vans.

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=783

 

 

Jason

[41516]

Chassis

Even on the craptastic Silver Seal square axle wheels buffer height is fine, perhaps a smidge high as checked against a Bill Bedford buffer height jig and a Hornby Shark.   Certainly not several mm out as has been mentioned up thread.

 

 

If anything, the shark buffer height is higher and I don't recall there being problem with it?

 

 

Anyway, snippy snippy with the  Xurons... 

 

 

[Flying Pig]

44 minutes ago, 41516 said:

Even on the craptastic Silver Seal square axle wheels buffer height is fine, perhaps a smidge high as checked against a Bill Bedford buffer height jig and a Hornby Shark.   Certainly not several mm out as has been mentioned up thread.

 

Paint me surprised - I don't recall any of my Hornby stuff from the 70s having the correct buffer height.  I never had anything on this chassis though.

[Steamport Southport]

I'm a bit different as I remember them being about right as I didn't have anything pre Silver Seal and they always seemed to vaguely match the Mainline and Airfix (and later kit built models) without any problems.

 

 

 

Jason

[Halvarras]

On 30/05/2023 at 15:30, BernardTPM said:

It was designed to be easy to mould, that's why it's short as the simple clips match where there are holes in the chassis to clip into. The chassis dates to around 1968/9, first used on the Whisky Grain wagons, but the replacement Tri-ang Hornby rather than Trix version sold by them for a short while.

 

I always thought this chassis first appeared under the R668 Bowaters china clay slurry tank wagon in 1969, but the grain wagon Trix connection muddies the waters (the Trix chassis was moulded in graphite-filled nylon and had 'proper' axleboxes, not those weird hollow things). Anyway, wagon bodies of this type which fitted the full length of the chassis had inset lugs on the underside to clip into the similarly inset holes in the chassis. This van had no floor to mould these inset clips on to, so they were simply added as extensions to the vehicle's ends, which is a blatantly cheapskate solution resulting in the 'end platforms'! It seems to me that the side detail was deliberately kept clear of handles, hinges, strapping etc to make printing of.........whatever was flavour of the month/year as straightforward as possible.

(Possibly the most ridiculous use of this chassis* was under the plate wagon, AFAIK only ever sold as a green 'Winkle' engineer's wagon with a bit of folded metal as a load - I had one once, cut off the totally redundant discharge pipe 'handwheels' (on a plate wagon??!!) and added small rectangles of black plasticard to turn the roller bearings into 'oil axleboxes' but it was still a bit rubbish! Anyway, off-topic that!!)

 

*The bright orange 'wheel carrier' frame thingy might give it a run for its money though 😜! Also less useful even than the van in question (unless........OO9 mini-girder bridge?!)

[russ p]

38 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

I always thought this chassis first appeared under the R668 Bowaters china clay slurry tank wagon in 1969, but the grain wagon Trix connection muddies the waters (the Trix chassis was moulded in graphite-filled nylon and had 'proper' axleboxes, not those weird hollow things). Anyway, wagon bodies of this type which fitted the full length of the chassis had inset lugs on the underside to clip into the similarly inset holes in the chassis. This van had no floor to mould these inset clips on to, so they were simply added as extensions to the vehicle's ends, which is a blatantly cheapskate solution resulting in the 'end platforms'! It seems to me that the side detail was deliberately kept clear of handles, hinges, strapping etc to make printing of.........whatever was flavour of the month/year as straightforward as possible.

(Possibly the most ridiculous use of this chassis* was under the plate wagon, AFAIK only ever sold as a green 'Winkle' engineer's wagon with a bit of folded metal as a load - I had one once, cut off the totally redundant discharge pipe 'handwheels' (on a plate wagon??!!) and added small rectangles of black plasticard to turn the roller bearings into 'oil axleboxes' but it was still a bit rubbish! Anyway, off-topic that!!)

 

*The bright orange 'wheel carrier' frame thingy might give it a run for its money though 😜! Also less useful even than the van in question (unless........OO9 mini-girder bridge?!)

 

Was it the same chassis under the crane runner?  Are the grain hoppers related to the trim version,  I always thought the trim one became the Bachmann one and is 3.8mm scale.  They are certainly smaller than the Hornby ones 

[BernardTPM]

3 minutes ago, russ p said:

 

Was it the same chassis under the crane runner?

The 75t crane runner uses it now, but earlier ones used the late '60s cheap trainset flat.

[BernardTPM]

47 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

I always thought this chassis first appeared under the R668 Bowaters china clay slurry tank wagon in 1969, but the grain wagon Trix connection muddies the waters

I suspect R668 was introduced around the same time they retooled the chassis. Perhaps the surprise was how long it took them to do a 45t tank wagon for it (1973).

[41516]

 

1 hour ago, Flying Pig said:

Paint me surprised

 

Nice to do a bit of myth busting.  The chassis I have is also made of a nice plastic that cuts and takes glue well, which bodes well for bashing.

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by 41516

[Ravenser]

8 hours ago, Flying Pig said:

 

But the chassis is unashamedly Triang-Hornby in style, so unless you want another trainset wagon it is of little use.  Nothing wrong with that of course, but you'd be better getting going with the plasticard and spares box if you wanted some variety, rather than trying to use it for scale models.

 

The body is probably not going to match any prototype, so it would be a case of imagining a mid 1960s to 1970s neverwazza.  Tail traffic on the Hastings route perhaps.  

 

"Trainset models " like these , you mean??

 

 

 

I do quite like to make something rather better, instead of simply opening the latest expensive box

 

The point is that the chassis in a reasonable and dimensionly ok representation of a late 1960s TTA underframe. No doubt more refined representations have been tooled up since - but it IS a TTA underframe, and various other bodies have been built on real TTA underframes

 

The van body seems to be a wholly fictitous representation of nothing at all

[Ravenser]

2 hours ago, 41516 said:

Chassis

Even on the craptastic Silver Seal square axle wheels buffer height is fine, perhaps a smidge high as checked against a Bill Bedford buffer height jig and a Hornby Shark.   Certainly not several mm out as has been mentioned up thread.

 

 

If anything, the shark buffer height is higher and I don't recall there being problem with it?

 

 

Anyway, snippy snippy with the  Xurons... 

 

 

 

Certainly I've never had any problems with buffer height on any of the specimens of this chassis I've used in my scale 4mm fleet.

 

Yes, I replaced the plastic buffers with brass Oleos , but at the same locations

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Halvarras said:

 

I always thought this chassis first appeared under the R668 Bowaters china clay slurry tank wagon in 1969, but the grain wagon Trix connection muddies the waters (the Trix chassis was moulded in graphite-filled nylon and had 'proper' axleboxes, not those weird hollow things). Anyway, wagon bodies of this type which fitted the full length of the chassis had inset lugs on the underside to clip into the similarly inset holes in the chassis. This van had no floor to mould these inset clips on to, so they were simply added as extensions to the vehicle's ends, which is a blatantly cheapskate solution resulting in the 'end platforms'! It seems to me that the side detail was deliberately kept clear of handles, hinges, strapping etc to make printing of.........whatever was flavour of the month/year as straightforward as possible.

(Possibly the most ridiculous use of this chassis* was under the plate wagon, AFAIK only ever sold as a green 'Winkle' engineer's wagon with a bit of folded metal as a load - I had one once, cut off the totally redundant discharge pipe 'handwheels' (on a plate wagon??!!) and added small rectangles of black plasticard to turn the roller bearings into 'oil axleboxes' but it was still a bit rubbish! Anyway, off-topic that!!)

 

*The bright orange 'wheel carrier' frame thingy might give it a run for its money though 😜! Also less useful even than the van in question (unless........OO9 mini-girder bridge?!)

 

My first trainset contained a red and white Kelloggs version of this van , plus the orange/red wheel carrier without wheel loads, and an 0-4-0T Continental tank. That was Christmas 1974 - parents were I think a little cautious about whether this train set fad would last, and weren't throwing money at it. I still have the open wagon

 

The same chassis went under the 21T steel mineral - Hornby's slightly burly rendering of a GW N32 "Felix Pole" steel mineral hired out to the S Wales coal trade, and various private builders 1930s close equivalents for large users. A Parkside 12' wb chassis will sort that one out - Stephenson Clarke seems to be an authentic livery (not sure about Bolsover, but it's not impossible) , and Norstand is an authentic l.ivery but... there's a 1930s builders pic of a steel 16T in that livery. I'm not sure they had any 20T wagons

[cessna152towser]

On 30/05/2023 at 11:10, SteveyDee68 said:

I wonder if there’s any more “official” liveries out there?

Yes, there's more.

Probably lots more!

The Red Arrows van had different designs on opposite sides.