EFE Rail Newton Chambers car carriers

[Colin_McLeod]

13 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

TBH I think we are getting to the stage that duplication is inevitable.

 

Not just in model railways.

How many companies make similar televisions, or smart phones, or clothes pegs etc.

 

 

[Delta_Who]

I don't get this whole duplication argument. You want a competitive industry, but only the little guys can duplicate (or manufacturers can't be allowed secrets). Can't have your cake and eat it too...

Edited June 17, 2023 by Delta_Who

[James Grundy]

6 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

 

Manufacturers getting together and deciding on who does what model would probably fall foul of anti-competitive practices laws. It would be seen as dividing up the market. So not something any business would want to do. 

There is a significant difference between 'Don't model this prototype, this one's ours, you can have that one' and 'Just so you know, we're intending to develop this prototype'.

 

I'm not against competing models as a matter of principle. My point is that for an obscure prototype (side note, the idea that we're running out of prototypes is pretty laughable but nevermind) two companies releasing models of effectively the same quality at a very similar price point is not helpful. It may well depress the price of these vehicles, but it will harm the results of both models relative to their projected returns.

 

This isn't a class 37 we're talking about. Both Bachmann and Accurascale will cover running numbers and liveries the other does not, and they'll both sell thousands. These things?....I doubt it.

[Steamport Southport]

4 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Still banging that drum? That's about how duplication is handled and how far elbows are stuck out.

 

We all know I'm right though.

 

 

 

Jason

[nightstar.train]

7 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

I don't get this whole duplication argument. You want a competitive industry, but only the little guys can duplicate (or manufacturers can't be allowed secrets). Can't have your cake and eat it too...

The problem is the British OO market is small. Things like the class 37, 47, 66 and 08 all have enough variants and liveries that the market can easily sustain 2 high quality models and both manufacturers will do well. But with something like these car carriers there were only ever 14 of them, they only wore two liveries and had a limited scope of operation. Is there demand for two high quality and expensive models? I seriously doubt it and both manufacturers will struggle I fear. That’s bad for the hobby as a whole as Heljan and Bachmann will have less money to invest in future models and might be more cautious. 

[AY Mod]

9 minutes ago, James Grundy said:

pretty laughable

 

As is naivety. First topic ban implanted.

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

We all know I'm right though.

 

You may think you are; I couldn't possibly comment.

 

Second topic ban.

[Legend]

Didn’t realise there were only 14 of them . It’s unfortunate , but I suppose that’s what happens because of competition laws preventing manufacturers talking to each other , which on the whole is a good thing . 
 

I’ve no doubt both will be good models . I liked the look of the Heljan ones at Model Rail Scotland but was put off by the need to order three . This gives me the opportunity to get 2 , so looks like I’ll be making my first EFE purchase 

[woodenhead]

I'm old enough to remember when N gauge was popular enough for duplicates - well it was only 15 years ago - Voyagers and 66s made it market, Panniers, Spamcans could have gone the same way had Dapol not gone to the big scale.

 

It was a surprise when I read this announcement and I was scratching my head thinking someone else is doing these aren't they, then the next assumption that they are doing some extras under the Efe brand to Andy's confirmation they are different models.

 

I guess OO is in rude health that it can stand these, can you imagine what Accurascale would have produced had they avoided any diesel already produced by another manufacturer and at the same time, we can see that is resulted in Bachmann also upping their own game.

 

Heljan is continuing to be Heljan on it's own path but it's brought out more locos too.

 

And then there are the little companies doing big things as well.

 

What better time to be modelling diesels!

[letterspider]

1 hour ago, James Grundy said:

Great to see resources of at least one company wasted on duplicating an obscure prototype. It's not like model prices are high and wasted investment is only going to make things worse, oh well.

 

I thought that obscure prototypes are more Heljan's thing?

[brushman47544]

Interesting that this is new tooling from Bachmann but under the EFE Rail brand. EFE Rail started out as other manufacturers’ models being released by Bachmann but has now progressed from that, as with the EFE Rail Pacers. Has it got something to do with Kader not being the manufacturer as it is for Bachmann branded models? But who leads? Has Bachmann effectively been allowed by its owners Kader to go elsewhere for new models, perhaps to make up for limited manufacturing capacity at Kader? So does all this mean we’ll be seeing more and more new models from EFE Rail?

 

It’s a shame about the duplication but with fewer and fewer older prototypes not yet available RTR I think we are going to see it more and more, unfortunately.

[tractionman]

29 minutes ago, Legend said:

This gives me the opportunity to get 2 , so looks like I’ll be making my first EFE purchase 

 

same here, and a pair is a likely Christmas present for me if the timing works out :-)

[ruggedpeak]

44 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

I don't get this whole duplication argument. You want a competitive industry, but only the little guys can duplicate (or manufacturers can't be allowed secrets). Can't have your cake and eat it too...

There are several issues. Firstly we are likely to have an oversupply of niche models that will end costing manufacturers and retailers money tied up in stock going nowhere. At the present economic time that is not good for them, or us as consumers as margins are tight and it may put some of those manufacturers and retailers at risk. Yes that is capitalism but doesn't necessary improve the hobby.

 

There are also long lists of items that have never been been modelled so one has to suggest that having 2 different manufacturers producing very similar models of a very niche item at the same time is a waste of scarce and limited design and manufacturing capacity.

 

Above someone pointed out that there is duplication in consumer goods like TV's. The UK TV market is on its way to being worth something like $7bn (yes, billion) a year https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20220808005300/en/United-Kingdom-Television-Market-to-Reach-7.45-Billion-by-2027---ResearchAndMarkets.com Competition and duplication in a multi-billion pound consumer sector is undoubtedly a good thing, but I doubt the model rail market is worth quite as much, so the effects can be different.

 

In an ideal world there might be a way to avoid these situations and provide a broader range of model types and less duplication.

[spamcan61]

59 minutes ago, Delta_Who said:

I don't get this whole duplication argument. You want a competitive industry, but only the little guys can duplicate (or manufacturers can't be allowed secrets). Can't have your cake and eat it too...

It's a tricky compromise from my point of view, I don't see the manufacturers sitting round a table in their Bond villain style lair divvying up the market as a good idea; but on the other hand 'last man standing' competition isn't great for the consumer in the long run either; I wouldn't want to go back to the late seventies scenario.

[letterspider]

Why not put out an EOI like Rails and Accurascale did for the 89 and the like of Revolution trains for their IPA carriers, then take pre order deposits and early bird discounts?

[brushman47544]

3 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

It's a tricky compromise from my point of view, I don't see the manufacturers sitting round a table in their Bond villain style lair divvying up the market as a good idea; but on the other hand 'last man standing' competition isn't great for the consumer in the long run either; I wouldn't want to go back to the late seventies scenario.

Didn’t Chris Leigh comment on here a few years ago about the practice across the channel? The manufacturers talked to the various national modelling groups about future plans and there was some sharing of information about potential models already being worked on elsewhere, meaning some duplication could be avoided. But that does have to work on trust - manufacturers wouldn’t simply block a model by saying they were producing it when they hadn’t actually started working on it.

[Pre Grouping fan]

1 minute ago, letterspider said:

Why not put out an EOI like Rails and Accurascale did for the 89 and the like of Revolution trains for their IPA carriers, then take pre order deposits and early bird discounts?

 

That's not Bachmann's style of doing things now. New products are announced at livery sample or immediately before delivery to shorten the long lead times previously seen

[ruggedpeak]

4 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

Didn’t Chris Leigh comment on here a few years ago about the practice across the channel? The manufacturers talked to the various national modelling groups about future plans and there was some sharing of information about potential models already being worked on elsewhere, meaning some duplication could be avoided. But that does have to work on trust - manufacturers wouldn’t simply block a model by saying they were producing it when they hadn’t actually started working on it.

Yes, thought I'd read that too. I thought it was in the US but probably wrong. Does require some degree of agreed ethical conduct.

 

I guess we see what happens with these models and whether they sell or end up in the sofa store style endless sales we are seeing at some retailers.

[ruggedpeak]

Would be interested to learn more about how these were used with the Mk3 sleepers, struggling to find much info at the moment. Hopefully one of the mags will do a review and associated prototype article, maybe something for Traction?

[Flood]

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

Would be interested to learn more about how these were used with the Mk3 sleepers, struggling to find much info at the moment. Hopefully one of the mags will do a review and associated prototype article, maybe something for Traction?

I've been checking up for Kirkhill and the Two Tier Car vans were used on the Edinburgh sleeper, along with an Inverness working, before and after the Mk3 sleepers came in. My Doncaster overnight on 14th June 1985 has the following:

 

1E42 47424: 96299, 96294, 96295, 10517, 10731, 10534, 10728, 10510, 10722, 10502, 10671, 92089 (23.35 Edin - KX)

 

1S77 47561: 92204, 10664, 10516, 10656, 10529, 10660, 10575, 10670, 10531, 93320, 96290, 96291 (23.35 KX - Edin)

 

Still thinking of buying some for Kirkhill for some variation anyway.

Edited June 17, 2023 by Flood
Correction to workings for the 1970s

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, James Grundy said:

Just a spot of good old fashioned communication.

 

Oh I don't doubt it. 

 

This chestnut again? I feel perfectly happy being disappointed with the rising cost of my hobby without setting out to solve the issue myself thank you very much.

 

Neither manufacturer benefits from this. There were 14 examples of these vehicles. 14!

 

Believe me I'm as staunch a free market proponent as they come, but there is competition and there is throwing development money away because we're too high and mighty to work a little bit in the modelling public's interest.

Maybe someone will be announcing a soapbox, and maybe it will be duplicated?  These things happen in a free market and there's nothing that can legally be done about it.  Manufacturers are not able to compare their programmes and it's probably just as well that they aren't.  But oddly grapevine rumours have in the past done as much to deprive the market of certain r-t-r models as they have done to fail to halt duplication because a project is too far advanced.

 

It's life in the commercial world and at least in this case while it is an unfortunate duplication it isn't somebody rushing something through to purposely compete with a model someone else has already announced.

 

And I'm not at all sure what is 'in the modelling public's interest'?  Maybe that means simply picking high polling model in wish lists or polls?   But then who decides the 'someone' who is not allowed to do that?  We are incredibly lucky at present with what is appearing in the r-t-r market and we've never had it this good - never.  A bit of duplication here and there might well be the price we and manufacturers have to pay for having it so good.

 

And yes - costs and prices are rising but model railways are al discretionary purchase.   Most concerns in the game appear to wish to stay in business so they need to make the right amount of money to enable them to do that.  To be honest I'm far more concerned when walking through a supermarket looking at everyday essentials which have increased in price by 20 or 25% at the stroke of printing a price ticket  - especially when many of the various company's  costs are currently falling rather than rising.  And the price increases there might well leave us with less money for discretionary purchases but that is not the fault of the discretionary items..

[Southernman46]

Aren't we lucky to have such choice in these modern times - even now extending to relatively niche prototypes 👍👍👍

 

As usual I'll be  applying Rule 1 for a variety of Motorail services to/from Soton via the DN & S to cater for cruise traffic 

 

Wish they'd all hurry up and duplicate a decent 21t rebodied HTV coal hopper too 🤞😊 

 

That positive enough ??

Edited June 17, 2023 by Southernman46
non existent proof reading

[Halvarras]

By the time we learned of Heljan's model it was already at the decorated sample stage - I suspect that, as we were saying, "Wow, these look great!" , the air above Barwell turned a shade of blue........

 

I was talked into buying a Cambrian GWR shunter's truck kit in a shop just months before not one but two RTR models appeared - some time later I bought a Hornby model for just £6.99, this was some years ago now but it got me thinking about how duplication of subjects with increasingly limited appeal cannot be a good thing for manufacturer profitability, but I can't see an easy answer to it - competition laws may work well for TVs but not for model railways, or many other smaller industries. Under present circumstances it looks like something we (and the manufacturers) are going to have to accept will happen from time to time. But we can all see it's an accelerating trend at a time when the pool of popular subjects not yet modelled gets ever smaller*, exacerbating the problem - I model the era these car carriers fall into but they are unsuitable for my layout, so I will simply have to admire them........alongside everything else I can't excuse 🥴!

 

Hornby's diversion into TT120 makes more sense with every OO duplication, even if they weren't involved this time.......

 

*I don't agree that there are still plenty of viable subjects available never produced RTR - the post-steam era is close to saturation (we're down to specialist wagon types now), and although the steam era itself is vast, it's telling that many excellent and only recently-released pre-nationalisation and pre-Grouping wagon models are already circling bargain bins. 

 

And I still haven't built that Cambrian kit.......

[hmrspaul]

31 minutes ago, Southernman46 said:

 

 

Wish they'd all hurry up and duplicate a decent 21t rebodied HTV coal too 🤞😊 

 

 

But the advantage of wagons is that duplication is necessary 😇 - the HTVs being a good example with their different body styles, different break rigging, different bearings, suspension, buffers ... There are 4 different scale drawings of rebodied 21T hoppers in 

An illustrated history of British Railways Hopper Wagons 

 

On the NC Motorail. I don't think it is breaking confidentiality that Bachmann had photos of these from me a long while before the Nov. 2022 announcement by Heljan. I don't know why Bachmann wanted the photos at that time - they work up a research folder on any potential models so could be before any decisions but such research doesn't usually require high resolution scans so it could more easily be much later in the production timeline (as Dapol often do). I knew nothing of the Heljan model, they keep very close since Ben took over. Although some numbers are similar to ones I have online this is hardly surprising as there are only 14 to choose from, and two main liveries. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brmotorail

 

Paul

[Written whilst Halvarras was writing]

 

Edited June 17, 2023 by hmrspaul

[hmrspaul]

12 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

By the time we learned of Heljan's model it was already at the decorated sample stage - I suspect that, as we were saying, "Wow, these look great!" , the air above Barwell turned a shade of blue........

 

*I don't agree that there are still plenty of viable subjects available never produced RTR - the post-steam era is close to saturation (we're down to specialist wagon types now), and although the steam era itself is vast, it's telling that many excellent and only recently-released pre-nationalisation and pre-Grouping wagon models are already circling bargain bins. 

 

Thanks for confirming what I was writing about the timeline of your model. 

 

I don't agree that there are few items of rolling stock waiting to be modelled. There isn't a decent RTR model with the standard LMS brake rigging https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brakerigging/e5fcca884  This was used on many types for many years. Look at all the hoppers not modelled. 

 

Or as just mentioned in the topic about Sonic VIX the BR Ferry car van -

Bachmann have the basic underframe and end already. Two distinct bodies - because the windows were soon plated over - and  various liveries especially with use by engineers. https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brferrymotorcarvan R C Riley published some lovely colour photos of these when they were new. 

 

Paul