Update from Hornby with regard to Oxford Rail.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Bucoops said:

When the Kings were being hauled to scrappies - would there have been a brake van? If so, ideal!

Then you would have to butcher the King before it was towed.

[Bucoops]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Then you would have to butcher the King before it was towed.

 

Wonderful idea - it gets better and better 😄🍿😜

[Ravenser]

Coming late to this , I'm afraid I have a fairly bleak take on these developments:

 

On 06/08/2023 at 15:18, Tim Dubya said:

Maybe Hornby are letting the (rail) brand die?

Bound to be some sort of official announcement soon I guess 🤷

 

On 06/08/2023 at 19:12, melmerby said:

Apart from the "Bundles" which mix together Oxford & Hornby catalogue items. IMHO some odd marriages!

https://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/collections/oxford-rail/products/gwr-locomotive-r3534-and-assortmen-of-vehicles

https://www.oxforddiecast.co.uk/collections/oxford-rail/products/or76bundle05

 

 

On 06/08/2023 at 20:27, melmerby said:

A fair while, possibly(?) shortly after Hornby got involved.

They do bundles with their own locos & coaches but some with a Hornby item.

 

Not sure who would want brake vans with a King😃

 

On 04/08/2023 at 12:35, MyRule1 said:

 Thought it was odd when I received emails from Oxford about the availability of N7's. Some were obviously shop/warranty returns. Also there have been items on eBay obviously from Oxford.

 

On 05/08/2023 at 07:27, Adi said:

My j26 is with ros

Oxford rail say it not in production yet cuz of covid when I asked Oxford rail 

But Hornby said no plans yet which I ask in Jan this year 

So who knows 

 

 

The "bundles" seem to be the ultimate desperation firesale for stuff Hornby Hobbies can't give away. I stumbled across them a few months back in the course of a general Hornby thread where there was speculation about what Hornby's inventory buildup might be. Looking at them I concluded that Oxford Rail and Oxford Diecast might be a significant element of the problem.

 

A shocking 8 years after it was released , Margate are still trying to shift a stock of unwanted Adams radials. It seems that the market may not be able to absorb RTR duplication of a class of 3 used only on one branchline  . Who'd a thunk it?? The Dean Goods is a couple of years more recent, heavily criticised - and Margate are still stuck with a pile of them they can't get rid of. If you ever wondered whether forums could really sink a model , and could actually inflict serious financial damage on the manufacturer of a criticised RTR release - here's your evidence

 

There are some Hornby items. The LMS suburbans (perfectly respectable models of their prototype) have been whispered about as something that were a drug in the market - here they are in bundles. So are LNER black J15s , and D16/3s - perfectly decent model but sadly nobody  wanted to buy one ... I was a bit shocked to see a GW liveried King there . For all the bitching about Gresley Pacifics they don't end up in the bargain basket never mind the nether hell of Oxford Bundles. But it seems nobody now wants top-link GW motive power - even esoteric things like P2s and Tornado are better commercial propositions .(I was a little surprised to see Hornby give the go- ahead  to a Castle in TT120 , especially in preference to a 9F.)   And the Oxford J27 in LNER black - a model begged and campaigned for online - is another three-legged dog in the bundles

 

With the exception of of the N7, virtually every loco Oxford Rail have produced seems to be subject to desperate clearance, indicating it's blocking up the Hornby warehouse in large immovable piles. At Warley last year there was a small seperate stall behind the Hornby stand , flogging cheap discounted Oxford Rail including returns sold cheap "as is" . That isn't the first returned/damaged sale from Oxford : it seems to have been an on-going theme for a while, and that must indicate a high level of returns, which are not economic to repair. Frobisher has touched on the Mk3 debacle - the models which were going to show Hornby how it's done turned out to be irredeemably flawed and have sunk without much trace 

 

Another melancholy reflection: lots of people have posted that the problem with Hornby is that they insist on making big green steem , especially eastern steam , and fail to make the small black engines - especially 0-6-0s - that people really want to buy . But Hornby (and Oxford) have made the small black engines , especially 0-6-0s: and here they are , unsaleable in the warehouse... Dean Goods , J15, J27, D16/3....

 

To be blunt, it looks horribly like nearly everything Oxford Rail made was some kind of commercial failure. There also seems to have been a serious QC problem.

 

The brand may have been protected until recently by the fact that it was the CEO's baby. But the new regime , we are told, are focussed on sales , and it is being suggested that they are going to require strict commercial  justificvation for any proposed new models, to staunch the bleeding through cool bright ideas that doesn't quite work and leave a litter  of unsold boxes in the warehouse.

 

To me, this looks like the new regime moving to cauterise a wound in summary fashion. A newly-tooled  Cowan Sheldon crane is just the sort of expensive esoteric item likely to fall foul of the new regime. And when it comes from a sub-brand which has turned out a string of commercial failures contributing to the inventory problem - no chance

 

For the same reason I reckon the J26 is dead as a door nail - imagine the new regime signing that one off when they still have piles of J27s unsold? Similarly integration of the J27 into the Hornby range is pie in the sky - who would dare go to senior management and propose a fresh batch when part of the first run is still cluttering up the warehouse?

 

The tooling for the Oxford Mk3s will never be used again, and nor will that for the Radial.  I suspect the same goes for the the Dean Goods tooling. Possibly  the only items that might resurface are the N7 and a number of the wagons

 

The only purpose for retention of the Oxford Rail brand would seem to be as a bucket shop to offload the residual stock.

 

Oxford Rail looks like a failed venture, which is now being liquidated

[Steamport Southport]

No idea why anyone thinks the King is being discounted heavily. If you take the value of the other models out of the equation it's still over £150!

 

 

Jason

[Nova Scotian]

I don't wish to speak too ill of SK and others that have since left Hornby - but the brand strategy there never made sense.

 

Reviving Dublo with high-end, limited edition, high margin, diecast range was inspired.

 

Bassett-Lowke steam punk - what in the actual ****?

 

Railroad, Railroad plus - and then Oxford rail in there too somewhere?

 

Hornby Junior - made sense until they had to kill it for Playtrains, which also seems to have not sold as well as hoped? Unfortunately, as I had high hopes for it.

 

Oxford Rail and its line could have found a place in the Hornby brand mix, if they'd known what they were doing with it. Some would go away. Some may come back with improvements. The radial is pretty good, the the second run was better than the first. Maybe it's not back for a while, but once demand picks up. The Deans Goods was fixable. The N7 good. 

 

Maybe they needed to better link Oxford Diecast and Oxford Rail? Create a new line of nostalgic locos - but that's where they've revived Triang? Or it could have been the second/third rung up on the brand ladder:

Railroad

Triang - Nostalgic old tooling

Oxford Rail, by Hornby

Hornby

Hornby Dublo

Bassett-Lowke - special o gauge runs (like they did for centenary)

 

Maybe there's just not room for it?

No matter the details - it doesn't feel well planned. It doesn't feel consistent. It's certainly not well communicated. With so much potential "value" in their brands they certainly pissed much of it up the wall (steampunk being the worst).

[Jon Harbour]

I confess I own an Oxford Rail Dean Goods (sound fitted) - I must be an exception because it runs quite satisfactorily to be honest. I had it running just the week before last at my local club.... It was from Rails of Sheffield at a price that was very hard to resist... (particularly with the 20% VAT knocked off for being in Australia! A sound fitted loco for £133 plus shipping!)

[Dunsignalling]

9 hours ago, Nova Scotian said:

I don't wish to speak too ill of SK and others that have since left Hornby - but the brand strategy there never made sense.

 

Reviving Dublo with high-end, limited edition, high margin, diecast range was inspired.

 

Bassett-Lowke steam punk - what in the actual ****?

 

Railroad, Railroad plus - and then Oxford rail in there too somewhere?

 

Hornby Junior - made sense until they had to kill it for Playtrains, which also seems to have not sold as well as hoped? Unfortunately, as I had high hopes for it.

 

Oxford Rail and its line could have found a place in the Hornby brand mix, if they'd known what they were doing with it. Some would go away. Some may come back with improvements. The radial is pretty good, the the second run was better than the first. Maybe it's not back for a while, but once demand picks up. The Deans Goods was fixable. The N7 good. 

 

Maybe they needed to better link Oxford Diecast and Oxford Rail? Create a new line of nostalgic locos - but that's where they've revived Triang? Or it could have been the second/third rung up on the brand ladder:

Railroad

Triang - Nostalgic old tooling

Oxford Rail, by Hornby

Hornby

Hornby Dublo

Bassett-Lowke - special o gauge runs (like they did for centenary)

 

Maybe there's just not room for it?

No matter the details - it doesn't feel well planned. It doesn't feel consistent. It's certainly not well communicated. With so much potential "value" in their brands they certainly pissed much of it up the wall (steampunk being the worst).

Not "being well planned" is inevitable.

 

Oxford Rail's programme of subjects was all worked out before it ever became part of Hornby, and the latter's exploitation of the potential of "absorbed" tooling has always been patchy, to put it kindly. 

 

Speaking as one of the generation targeted, I consider the "nostalgia" names, Hornby Dublo, Tri-ang, and whatever they might attempt to restore some credibility to Bassett-Lowke, will have a limited shelf-life.

 

They are purely ways to tap the affluent-elderly nostalgia market as it presently exists. Once those of us who can remember the originals when they were current are gone, they will retain little relevance beyond the heavier HD versions of modern Hornby locos having greater haulage capacity.      

 

John

Edited August 10, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[HExpressD]

Not sure on other people's perception of the brand, but I love Oxford. Their Dean Goods is one of the best running locos I own, their Janus is one of my personal favourites and their wagons are second to none for the price. 

[cctransuk]

10 minutes ago, HExpressD said:

Not sure on other people's perception of the brand, but I love Oxford. Their Dean Goods is one of the best running locos I own, their Janus is one of my personal favourites and their wagons are second to none for the price. 

 

Perhaps, from the perspective of Hornby, they were too good / cheap by comparison to their own products?

 

CJI.

[MikeParkin65]

16 hours ago, Ravenser said:

At Warley last year there was a small seperate stall behind the Hornby stand , flogging cheap discounted Oxford Rail including returns sold cheap "as is" . That isn't the first returned/damaged sale from Oxford : it seems to have been an on-going theme for a while, and that must indicate a high level of returns, which are not economic to repair. Frobisher has touched on the Mk3 debacle - the models which were going to show Hornby how it's done turned out to be irredeemably flawed and have sunk without much trace 

 

 

I gambled £75 on a sound fitted J27 in the bargain bin described as 'sound good, loco won't move'. It didnt take me long at all to dissemble the chassis and identify it was a gear train problem and all that was wrong was that the gear on the driven wheelset wasnt properly located on striated part of the axle. Total fixing time was about 30 mins.  That said I returned 2 sound fitted J27's bought new both with damage, one through poor quality control (rods jammed hard against the footstep) , one through poor packaging. My dealer reported he had had a lot of returns of this model and in fact was considering saying he wouldnt supply mail order such was weakness of the packaging.

 

Seems OR was a good business model purely executed unfortunately. 

[Bucoops]

I like my N7s - one was bought new and even with the couple of well documented minor issues it was well worth the price. The other is a sound fitted one from their ebay sale of faulty ones. Was an easy fix so a bargain.

[micklner]

I have two J27's both bought secondhand with no issues whatsoever . Bargain buys , one has had a bit more detail added, the one below has been done already to make it a bit more pretty using Dave Bradwell castings.   The other one will be backdated to LNER condition (using same castings source) from a BR version in due course.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by micklner

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, HExpressD said:

Dean Goods is one of the best running locos I own

I've got two Dean Goods and they both run well. both are the later ones with the better cab sheet dimensions and the 3 pole coreless motor

One failed when the motor gave up the ghost after not too much use.

Oxford sent a replacement motor by return postage and no more trouble since.

 

My main complaint is that the coreless motors aren't very powerful compared to an iron cored 5 pole (as originally fitted)

One of "High Level Kits" coreless motors might make a difference

 

[Michael Hodgson]

5 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Perhaps, from the perspective of Hornby, they were too good / cheap by comparison to their own products?

 

CJI.

So are we to infer that the long-awaited Cowans Sheldon cranes and the J26 won't materialise, or maybe only at much higher price than pre-ordered in 2020/2021?  Asking for a friend 😁

[cctransuk]

6 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So are we to infer that the long-awaited Cowans Sheldon cranes and the J26 won't materialise, or maybe only at much higher price than pre-ordered in 2020/2021?  Asking for a friend 😁

 

No idea - but I know which way I'd bet!

 

CJI.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Non existent Oxford Rail spares doesn't help.

 

Mike.

[melmerby]

People keep talking as if Oxford Diecast/Rail has been absorbed by Hornby.

It has not. It is a separate entity with it's own share capital and company registration.

It has it's own board of directors, although some are shared with Hornby.

Hornby do own all the share capital but that is not the same as Corgi, Airfix, Scalextric etc.  which have been fully absorbed into the Hornby structure and no longer trade as separate companies.

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

So are we to infer that the long-awaited Cowans Sheldon cranes and the J26 won't materialise, or maybe only at much higher price than pre-ordered in 2020/2021?  Asking for a friend 😁

Quite possibly, but the second run of Pilchards turned up, and they were still well below what I would consider Hornby pricing 

[55020]

12 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Speaking as one of the generation targeted, I consider the "nostalgia" names, Hornby Dublo, Tri-ang, and whatever they might attempt to restore some credibility to Bassett-Lowke, will have a limited shelf-life.

 

They are purely ways to tap the affluent-elderly nostalgia market as it presently exists. Once those of us who can remember the originals when they were current are gone, they will retain little relevance beyond the heavier HD versions of modern Hornby locos having greater haulage capacity.      

 

John

 

Nostalgia is a strange thing.  I'm a diesel modeller and in the 70s Hornby were peddling rubbish (Classes 09, 37, 47; dreadful coaches, etc).  Consequently I have no "warm and fuzzy" feelings about Hornby at all.  In fact the opposite is probably true, as they continue to peddle rubbish for the 70s/80s B&G period modeller (note I am generalising, of course, some of it is OK).

 

 

Steve

[toby_tl10]

23 hours ago, Ravenser said:

Another melancholy reflection: lots of people have posted that the problem with Hornby is that they insist on making big green steem , especially eastern steam , and fail to make the small black engines - especially 0-6-0s - that people really want to buy . But Hornby (and Oxford) have made the small black engines , especially 0-6-0s: and here they are , unsaleable in the warehouse... Dean Goods , J15, J27, D16/3....

My focus is Eastern Region steam, I own a J15, J27 and J36 (all in BR livery). I've been looking for an affordable D16/3 in BR lined black for a quite some time, but to no avail. In fact, only one such variant was ever produced by Hornby (R3234).

 

I think there is some connection between livery and saleability. I've seen the D16/3 pop up at retailers multiple times, but it's always the LNER lined black variant or the E prefix variant. The apple green one also never pops up. The LNER J15 also seems to stay on the shelves much longer than a BR J15.

[Dunsignalling]

32 minutes ago, 55020 said:

 

Nostalgia is a strange thing.  I'm a diesel modeller and in the 70s Hornby were peddling rubbish (Classes 09, 37, 47; dreadful coaches, etc).  Consequently I have no "warm and fuzzy" feelings about Hornby at all.  In fact the opposite is probably true, as they continue to peddle rubbish for the 70s/80s B&G period modeller (note I am generalising, of course, some of it is OK).

 

 

Steve

As soon as I got my first rebuilt MN, whatever nostalgia I might have felt for any Hornby product that preceded it went straight out of the window!

 

I just wanted to see the lot redone to a comparable standard. I'm still waiting! 🙃

 

If others like to collect antiques (genuine or not), that's fine, but include me out.

 

John

Edited August 10, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[55020]

14 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

As soon as I got my first rebuilt MN, whatever nostalgia I might have felt for any Hornby product that preceded it went straight out of the window!

 

I just wanted to see the lot redone to a comparable standard. I'm still waiting! 🙃

 

If others like to collect antiques (genuine or not), that's fine, but include me out.

 

John

 

I so get what you're saying.  I guess I should have finished my post by saying I don't feel loyal towards any particular brand.  I'll buy the products that deliver quality at a price I can afford.  I just know sometimes saying anything against a certain manufacturer can be met by a barrage of criticism.

 

I worry about Hornby's longevity.  They do have a loyal following, but I suspect this will wane over time if they don't sort out their fundamentals i.e. quality and value.  Niche products may get some sort of short term injection of interest, but someone in Hornby needs to look at the big picture with regard to what the customers want; as well as what other manufacturers are doing.

 

Back to the thread, does Oxford Rail fit with the "big picture" view and provide something that isn't available elsewhere?

 

 

Steve

[The Johnster]

On 08/08/2023 at 13:51, NZRedBaron said:

There's also always the option of the 'running in turns'; I remember seeing a picture in a book once, of a double-chimney 'King' in BR livery pulling a two-coach local stopper, as it was fresh from an overhaul.

 

The running-in turn' was a Swindon-Didcot stopper in the days when there were stops between Swindon and Didcot, and could produce whatever came out of the works that day. Locos that could not make the timings were run in on the Highworth Branch.  Stock was a B set.

 

On 08/08/2023 at 13:29, Bucoops said:

When the Kings were being hauled to scrappies - would there have been a brake van? If so, ideal!

 

Yes, locos hauled dead to scrappers or to the assembly points where they were collected before being put up for tender (sorry) had brake vans.  In the case of GW locomotives, the loco and tender had working vacuum brakes, so a train of dead GW locos could be a fully fitted, but the guard still needed accommodation at the rear, and a loco cab with a fire in the firebox would have been very wasteful of coal!

[The Johnster]

On 09/08/2023 at 20:45, Ravenser said:

It seems that the market may not be able to absorb RTR duplication of a class of 3 used only on one branchline  . Who'd a thunk it??

 

I would venture to suggest that this particular loco, and the Beattie Well Tank, are very very rarely purchased for use on models of the Lyme Regis or Wenford Bridge branches!  So, on the basis of the production of RTR Adams Radials and Beattie Well Tanks, where are my TVR twin-set gangwayed auto-trailers and Collett 1938 31xx?

[The Johnster]

I have a sneaking regard for Oxford Rail, who make very acceptable 7-plank minerals and short wheelbase toads at very acceptable prices.   I was disappointed when Hornby absorbed them and thought it bode ill for the brand, and that thought seems to have been borne out.  I can only hope that the brand will survive to become an independent producer in the same way that it was before Hornby got their grubby little pinkies on it, and their potential to increase the RTR biodiversity at sympathetic pricing leves can be realised.