Things that make you :)

[Tim Dubya]

[Hibelroad]

You need to be tough to drink our wines.

[jbqfc]

[The Johnster]

46 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

You need to be tough to drink our wines.

And a pig.

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, Tim Dubya said:

 

Might be a daft question, but why does the duck and the crocodile need to be on a boat when they can both swim, and in the case of the duck also fly?

 

I believe that both even survived the asteroid that supposed to have wiped out the dinosaurs so a bit of water isn't going to bother them!

[figworthy]

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

Many years ago a group of us had met up at a pub, when was time to leave we found an idiot had parked across the access to the parking spots.

Tried back in pub, no one would own up.

Back outside, being that ther were about 6 or 8 of us, we lifted the car up and moved it so the driver's door was hard against a wall.

Bear in mind this was before the days of remote unlocking and most cars only had a key openable door on the driver's side.

 

 

Many years ago, a friend had a similar problem.  In this case, they spotted an alcove in the car park wall that was just longer than the offending car.

 

Adrian

[Tim Dubya]

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Might be a daft question, but why does the duck and the crocodile need to be on a boat when they can both swim, and in the case of the duck also fly?

 

I believe that both even survived the asteroid that supposed to have wiped out the dinosaurs so a bit of water isn't going to bother them!

 

I guess (and allegedly) as the entire planet was submerged then even aquatic beasts needed somewhere to roost, rest and feed. 

I can't tread water for more than a couple minutes (despite having "Radstock Hands & Feet").

[The Johnster]

57 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Might be a daft question, but why does the duck and the crocodile need to be on a boat when they can both swim, and in the case of the duck also fly?

 

I believe that both even survived the asteroid that supposed to have wiped out the dinosaurs so a bit of water isn't going to bother them!

 

Because the whole world was flooded, and there was nowhere for them to fly to.  Both species needed dry land to lay eggs on.  The story completely ignores fish, of course, which didn't need saving by Noah and his ark and probably rather enjoyed the whold episode.  All the plants would have been destroyed as well, but there is no mention of Noah gathering seeds to save on the ark.  Noah and his wife were saved because he was the best of humans, or perhaps it would be better to describe him as the least appalling of humans.  According to Genesis, he later got drunk on vul nut (walnut) wine and had sex with one of his own daughters, which is hardly the behaviour of a paragon.

 

And we have the same plot failure as in the Sons of Adam story; who did the children of Noah propagate with?  They were the only survivors, so any multiplying that they went forth and would have been incestuous.

 

In common with other flood myths found around the world, I have always assumed that the roots of this story are a folk memory of the period at the end of the last Ice Age, roughly 12kya-8kya, when the vast Ice sheets diminished to the size they are currenlty and huge amounts of meltwater were released into the sea, which rose about 200 feet in consequence.  It all really happened, just not exactly as the various stories relate it.  There were undoubtedly major flooding events that took many lives, the inundation of the Black Sea and the destruction of Doggerland come to mind.  The Lyonesse/Lys/Cantref Gwaelod stories might be related to one of these episodes, the tsunami from the Storegga underwater landslide, a collapse of glacial deposits on the edge of the continental shelf off Norway.  This event would have broken massive sections of the ice shelf off as well, accelerating the already continuous sea level rise for perhaps two or three years.

 

On the other hand, he found weed, yay!

[KeithMacdonald]

9 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

who did the children of Noah propagate with? 

 

As you rightly say, there are many other "flood myths" found around the world. With a great many similarities, of the "virtuous ones" (or the Preppers of that epoch) saving not only themselves but also livestock and seeds to repopulate the ground when it had dried out enough. The Oldie Testimonty focuses solely on Noah as the Local Hero, but Noah & kin must have been well-loaded with dosh or very well connected to "just" have the necessary to build a massive ark in the back garden.

 

Maybe, post-flood, they met up with other surviving virtuous ones?

 

The destruction of Doggerland also solves an ancient linguistic riddle - "What came first, English or Fresian?" As Fresian is by far the closest of all mainland European languages to English, far closer than the urban-myth Saxon (the Saxons being a barely-literate mercenary army unwisely hired and invited over by Vortigen, but that's another story). The answer to the riddle is "Neither!" - as both can be derived from the language of Doggerland and the surviving Doggerlanders.

[KeithMacdonald]

2 hours ago, Hibelroad said:

You need to be tough to drink our wines.

 

It's Olivia I feel sorry for, and admire at the same time.

Having a medical problem and putting on your website, takes some courage?

https://oliviastrains.com/

 

[Hroth]

18 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

the Saxons being a barely-literate mercenary army unwisely hired and invited over by Vortigen, but that's another story

 

I hope you didn't derive your historical knowledge from "Our Island Story", which is even more risible than "1066 and All That"!

 

And according to Wikipedia, the two are related...

 

[Dagworth]

While we are on flood myths and fish...

 

One day God calls down to Noah and says "Noah me old china, I wants you to make me a new Ark".
Noah replies, "No probs God, me old Supreme Being, anything you want - after all you're the boss".
But God interrupts, "Ah but there's a catch this time Noah, I want not just a couple of decks, I want 20 decks, one on top of the other".
"20 DECKS!", screams Noah, "Well, OK Big Man, whatever you say, should I fill it up with all the animals just like last time?"
" ... Yep, that's right, well ... sort of right ... this time I want you to fill it up with fish" God answers.
"Fish?" Queries Noah.
"Yep, fish ... well, to make it more specific Noah, I want Carp, wall to wall - Carp, floor to ceiling - Carp!"
Noah looks to the skies, "OK God my old mucker, let me get this right, you want a New Ark?"
"Check".
"With 20 decks, one on top of the other?".
"Check".
"And you want it full of Carp?".
"Check"
"Why?" asks the perplexed Noah, who was slowly but surely reaching the far end of his tether.
"Dunno" says God. "I just fancied a Multi-Storey Carp Ark".

Edited September 21, 2023 by Dagworth

[Steamport Southport]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 

Because the whole world was flooded, and there was nowhere for them to fly to.  Both species needed dry land to lay eggs on.  The story completely ignores fish, of course, which didn't need saving by Noah and his ark and probably rather enjoyed the whold episode.  All the plants would have been destroyed as well, but there is no mention of Noah gathering seeds to save on the ark.  Noah and his wife were saved because he was the best of humans, or perhaps it would be better to describe him as the least appalling of humans.  According to Genesis, he later got drunk on vul nut (walnut) wine and had sex with one of his own daughters, which is hardly the behaviour of a paragon.

 

And we have the same plot failure as in the Sons of Adam story; who did the children of Noah propagate with?  They were the only survivors, so any multiplying that they went forth and would have been incestuous.

 

In common with other flood myths found around the world, I have always assumed that the roots of this story are a folk memory of the period at the end of the last Ice Age, roughly 12kya-8kya, when the vast Ice sheets diminished to the size they are currenlty and huge amounts of meltwater were released into the sea, which rose about 200 feet in consequence.  It all really happened, just not exactly as the various stories relate it.  There were undoubtedly major flooding events that took many lives, the inundation of the Black Sea and the destruction of Doggerland come to mind.  The Lyonesse/Lys/Cantref Gwaelod stories might be related to one of these episodes, the tsunami from the Storegga underwater landslide, a collapse of glacial deposits on the edge of the continental shelf off Norway.  This event would have broken massive sections of the ice shelf off as well, accelerating the already continuous sea level rise for perhaps two or three years.

 

On the other hand, he found weed, yay!

 

Well, there is no evidence of any global flooding in the time zone that the Bible says seeing as according to the Bible it says the world is only 5784 years old (that's the date of the Jewish calendar).

 

 

As for wives it clearly states Noah's sons and their wives, with no mention how many wives each had, but at that time numerous wives would be common.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_aboard_Noah's_Ark

 

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by Steamport Southport

[The Johnster]

The Vortigern story is backed up by Gildas, a 6th century Welsh monk born in Strathclyde, which was Welsh then, and eductated at St Illtud's ecclesiastical college at Llantwit Major, a very important Dark Age centre of learning.  He is Gwytheryn in the Gildas version, which is a significant source of early Dark Age information as not much was being written anywhere in Britain in those days.  Unfortunately, Gwytheryn is one of very few kings named, and that as a usurper, liar, incestuous, faithless, greedy and a drunkard.. Gildas is primarily concerned with the sinful behaviour of British kings of that era, and by his account they were indeed a murderous, treacherous, completely unprincipled, drunken bunch of rapists, betrayers of allies, and in some cases incestuous.

 

Gwytheryn was a Celtic king of Kent, which was lost by treachery to Hengist and Horsa.  Gwytheryn, who had already committed with his own daughter who had borne a son by him, fell in love with Hengist's daughter Rowena, and at their marriage feast Hengist's men slew all the Britons attending.  They spared Gwytheryin who owed them ransom money, and he escaped and fled to Nant Gwytheryn in North Wales.  The various Saxon (Saes), Angle, and Jute settlers that pushed the Britons back to their present borders in Wales are known in later Welsh histories as the 'Children of Rowena'.  The term 'Saes' and the word for the English language, Saesneg, is derived, as is 'Saxon', from the 'seax', the fearsome battle axe that the Saxons used so effectively in battle.  It was an effective weapon, but needed a strong and powerful warrior to wield it, but was not as large or heavy as the later Viking axe, which it was said could cut a man in half simply by gravity.

 

He re-appears in Geoffrey of Monmouth in connection with Arthur.  While at Nant Gwytheryn, his castle is disturbed by two dragons fighting in the foundations, and when they are dug out one is seen to be red and the other white.  Merlin explains that the red dragon represents the Britons, and the white Gwytheryn and the invaders he has betrayed the Britons to, and that they will fight for all eternity, neither ever achieving victory other the other.  This is the fate that Gwytheryn has condemned the Britons to.  Geoffrey identifies Gwytheryn's son with Vortimer, son of Vortigern in the English version of the story, with Uther Pendragon, who is of course the father of Arthur. 

 

This becomes a bit of a rabbit hole and it is up to you how far you want to go down it, but the Vortigern/Gwytheryn - Hengist/Horsa stories contain enough parallels to be very probably based on actual events.  Gildas claims to be born in the same year as the Battle of Mt, Badon (possibly Bath), where according to Geoffrey 'Arthur slew thirty-nine Saxon warriors, he and none but he alone'. 

[The Johnster]

4 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Well, there is no evidence of any global flooding in the time zone that the Bible says seeing as according to the Bible it says the world is only 5784 years old (that's the date of the Jewish calendar).

 

 

As for wives it clearly states Noah's sons and their wives, with no mention how many wives each had, but at that time numerous wives would be common.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_aboard_Noah's_Ark

 

 

 

Fair enough, but the situation woud have been similar to that of the Pitcairn Islanders, Bounty mutineers and Tahitians.  Very close genealogical records were kept here to prevent accidental incestuous relationships.  The same has occurred in Iceland, settled by Norse men with volunteer women from the Hebrides and Northern Isles according to the writers of Eric the Red's saga, leading to the common use there of surnames that identify parentage, so there is documented historical precedent, if you can use the word precedent for something that, if anything like it ever actually happened, it happened thousands of years previously.

 

Thing is with these folk memory stories is that, while the actual facts have been forgotten, confused with similar stories, altered over time, conflated with ficticious accounts, something started them off.  The melt floods, Storegga tsunami, and the Black Sea inundation all took place between 12 and 8kya, but the Cantref Gwaelod flood is probably connected to the flooding of the tree-stumps on Borth beach, about 5kya.  So the Cantref Gwaelod story, involving a gate in the sea-wall which was neglected by the gate-keeper who was busy drinking wine and getting up to what he shouldna oughta with the King's daughter (something like this happens in the Atlantis story, perhaps evidence of confusion or conflation) happens about 2.5kya before the Britons make an appearance in known history, trading tin and slaves with the Romans.  It didn't even happen to the Britons, who were an Iron Age people, but to the previous Bronze Age residents, the Beaker people.  Of course it is likely that these were absorbed into the Celtic immigrant wave, and their stories perpetuated as bedtime tales told by mothers to children.  This seems plausible. 

 

The older flood stories seem to refer to about 8kya, when a lot of melt-flood events happened, perhaps around a climatic tipping-point.  They were written down usually about 5kya, a time gap of around 3kya, also passably plausible.  Much of that world was of extended families with extended family histories, and few people ventured far from where they were born, a situation conducive to handing stories from generation to generation...

[ian]

23 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

the sinful behaviour of British kings of that era, and by his account they were indeed a murderous, treacherous, completely unprincipled, drunken bunch of rapists, betrayers of allies, and in some cases incestuous.

Just the ones of that era?

[melmerby]

23 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Well, there is no evidence of any global flooding in the time zone that the Bible says seeing as according to the Bible it says the world is only 5784 years old (that's the date of the Jewish calendar).

Whilst the people in the bible lands were getting their feet wet, nearby Egyptians were ploughing their fields and hunting in their pleasantly temperate lands.

(Egyptian civilisation started about 6000 years ago)

[KeithMacdonald]

41 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Well, there is no evidence of any global flooding in the time zone that the Bible says seeing as according to the Bible it says the world is only 5784 years old

 

Aha, lovely - that would be an ecumenical matter 😄

(I do love it when I get a chance to quote from Father Ted) 😄

 

Well, for starters, that "according to the Bible it says the world is only 5784 years old" would be simple enough to prove, wouldn't? That is, if it were true, we'd find it written in the Bible. But do any of the known versions of the Bible say such a thing? That includes Aramaic, Greek, Roman, Latin, and English. Sadly it's an ecumenical myth, that began with the Archbishop James Usher (1581-1656) and his clumsy attempt to date the creation of the world.

 

Next, regarding "the date of the Jewish calendar" - you may be confused by the several versions of the Jewish calendar, each with their own start date. It does confuse history (as we know it, Jim), because they "reset the clock" at least twice. Once in their own recorded history when they switched from a solar Enoch Calendar, That is the Enoch Calendar shown in the 1st Book Of Enoch, said to have been given by the Angel Uriel (YahEl), and is the original Priestly Calendar that was used in the Torah. It was the official Hebrew calendar until the 2nd Century BCE, when King Antiochus IV Epiphanes ended the use of the Enoch Calendar and forced the Hebrew people (sons of Eber/Heber) to observe the Lunar Calendar. At which all kinds of biblical confusion kicked-off, because of the muppetry confusion between them counting lunar months and us counting solar years.

 

Quote

Adam lived to be 930 of age.
Methuselah lived to be 969 of age.
Noah lived to be 950 of age.

 

That is, lunar years of 13 months each, and so …

 

Quote

Adam lived to be 71 1/2 years of age.
Methuselah lived to be 74 1/2 years of age.
Noah lived to be 73 years of age.

 

Then the Romans came along and, for calendars, Doh! it just gets worse!

 

Edited September 21, 2023 by KeithMacdonald
typo

[brossard]

39 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Well, there is no evidence of any global flooding in the time zone that the Bible says seeing as according to the Bible it says the world is only 5784 years old (that's the date of the Jewish calendar).

 

 

As for wives it clearly states Noah's sons and their wives, with no mention how many wives each had, but at that time numerous wives would be common.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wives_aboard_Noah's_Ark

 

 

 

Deviating from the "jokes" aspect of this thread (although that seems to happen with fair regularity), for a fascinating theory of how the great flood happened, read "Magicians of the Gods" by Graham Hancock.  Hint, there was a comet involved and the kilometers thick ice sheet at the time, ~11,000 BCE, melted suddenly and catastrophically.

 

John

[KeithMacdonald]

1 minute ago, brossard said:

for a fascinating theory of how the great flood happened, read "Magicians of the Gods" by Graham Hancock.

 

+1

See also his "Underworld" book, on the remains of ancient towns and cities now to be found deep under water.  Most relevant to Biblical accounts might be the pre-Sumarian civilisations in the now-offshore parts of the Indus Valley and (what is now) the Arabian Sea.

PDF version

https://archive.org/details/underworldthemysteriousoriginsofcivilizationbygrahamhancock

[Tim Dubya]

and I thought we'd go off at a tangent on the weed debate.

 

[brossard]

2 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

+1

See also his "Underworld" book, on the remains of ancient towns and cities now to be found deep under water.  Most relevant to Biblical accounts might be the pre-Sumarian civilisations in the now-offshore parts of the Indus Valley and (what is now) the Arabian Sea.

PDF version

https://archive.org/details/underworldthemysteriousoriginsofcivilizationbygrahamhancock

 

Hmm, I missed that one, thanks.  I really enjoyed his Fingerprints of the Gods.  Hancock has spent much of his life searching for proof of early antediluvian advanced civilizations.

 

John

[PeterStiles]

2 hours ago, brossard said:

antediluvian advanced

I thought that was all fairly well documented by the historian Hugh Lofting in his biographies of the Victorian gentleman Dr Doolittle who found a rather talkative huge and ancient tortoise that remembered those times....

[zarniwhoop]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

This becomes a bit of a rabbit hole and it is up to you how far you want to go down it, but the Vortigern/Gwytheryn - Hengist/Horsa stories contain enough parallels to be very probably based on actual events.  Gildas claims to be born in the same year as the Battle of Mt, Badon (possibly Bath), where according to Geoffrey 'Arthur slew thirty-nine Saxon warriors, he and none but he alone'. 

Such tales always make me smile, so very much on-thread :) where I come from, the view is that Hengist and Horsa were alternative names for the animals that the saxon warriors rode (according to wikipedia, Stallion and Horse).

 

And anyway, I'm more likely to believe that the first saxon mercenaries were a bit earlier, and here in Sussex where they eventually slew the native British (hence the place names from the Ouse and a little further East to perhaps as far as, or beyond, the Adur - e.g. Beddingham, Erringham where the ham in that context is said to mean a bend on a river). Sorry, that is getting a bit off-thread.

[billbedford]

8 hours ago, KeithMacdonald said:

Then the Romans came along and, for calendars, Doh! it just gets worse!

 

But the Romans were really clever to get their year count to run backwards...