Dapol Class 121 and 122 in OO gauge

[dibber25]

Hesitate to disagree with two such notables but think you might be. As far as I'm aware those units the were finished in light green had whiskers but no lining. I've never seen a clearly identified photo that would contradict that. (Some dark green units has whiskers but no lining)

Every pic of a 121/122 I have shows lining.

I'll await elucidation :-)

 

As an aside are the green ones going to have full diameter oleo buffers ?

 

Stu

 

I don't claim to be a 'notable' but I did study the single-units closely from the time I first saw one (W55021 at Staines West in 1962). They were a particular interest of mine while most other folk were chasing steam. I would state the following with at least 90% certainty.

1 The Gloucesters (built 1958) were delivered in light green ('malachite') with cream lining.

2 The Pressed Steels (built 1960) were delivered in dark green with cream lining.

3 I never saw an unlined single unit. I am tolerably certain that all of both classes carried full lining. There were, however, light green 116s and dark green 117s which were devoid of lining.

4 The early green is notorious for going dark on the colour film of the period. I'm pretty certain that is true of the Colour-Rail shot of W55000 at Swindon when brand new. This car was DEFINITELY light green when new and I have black and white official pics taken at Swindon at the same time and they leave no doubt that it is the pale shade. They also show that the cream lining is outlined either side with a very fine black line - which would not be do-able on a OO model and doesn't notice from a distance.

5 The lining on the Dapol models is incorrect in that both lines appear the same thickness. The upper line should be a much narrower line than the waistband, and the reverse curve up over the windscreens has been done in the style of BR's retro livery on the green 121, and not in the original style. Photos would show the difference.

CJL

[lapford34102]

Hi,

Fair enough, the build dates of the Gloucesters and Pressed Steels would tie in with the  apparent changeover between light and dark DMU green.

I am now intrigued to find out which green the Derby and Swindon cross-countries wore when they were new. From my couple of B+W pics they look to be dark which is what I thought I remembered them in. Note -  I've always taken dark DMU green to be very near, if not identical, to loco green.

There's a good colour pic on page 60 of Heyday of the DMU showing a 116 unit carrying both colours and clearly shows the contrast. It's also interesting in that the unit is from the early batch and both driving cars are in dark green by 62.

As for the lining Dapol seem to have got it right on their N gauge examples.

Cheers

Stu

[dibber25]

Hi,

Fair enough, the build dates of the Gloucesters and Pressed Steels would tie in with the  apparent changeover between light and dark DMU green.

I am now intrigued to find out which green the Derby and Swindon cross-countries wore when they were new. From my couple of B+W pics they look to be dark which is what I thought I remembered them in. Note -  I've always taken dark DMU green to be very near, if not identical, to loco green.

There's a good colour pic on page 60 of Heyday of the DMU showing a 116 unit carrying both colours and clearly shows the contrast. It's also interesting in that the unit is from the early batch and both driving cars are in dark green by 62.

As for the lining Dapol seem to have got it right on their N gauge examples.

Cheers

Stu

 

Yes, the build dates did relate to the shade of green used - pre-1960 light green generally (but Original Derby lightweights and Met-Camms were dark green). I guess you mean Gloucester (not Derby) and Swindon cross-countries (119/120)? Both were new in the light green (they were late 1950s build) but there were some later 120s which had the four-character head code panel in the lower cab front, and these units were new in dark green. I have a picture which shows a very dark shade but, again, it may be down to the vagaries of color print film in the 1960s.

Modellers have tended, over the years to simplify the DMU greens to two shades. I remember them as being several different shades, which is logical, bearing in mind the number of different companies who were building them. In general, once they got their first shopping, they came out in the standard 'dark' green with yellow panel. Some of the early greens also discolored badly. The 'dark' green could turn very dark (and very matt), indeed, as reflected by one of Bachmann's shots of a 117 they used on their launch publicity. I would say that Lima got the early green pretty accurate on their GWR railcar. Heljan's AC Cars is good in both light and dark greens. I stand corrected about the lining thickness on the 122 and will check my references on the 121. I have never considered the dark green on the WR units to be loco green - I remember it as quite a lot darker. Unlined, it was a pretty dreadful colour for new trains. I am now having a conversation with Dapol about all this. (CJL)

Edited October 31, 2016 by dibber25

[159220]

Sorry, but would these discussions not be rather in-vein if you are not also discussing them on the Dapol Digest. If as long as you do not make comments on there, you are happy with the incorrect results when delivered, then no worries.

[dibber25]

Sorry, but would these discussions not be rather in-vein if you are not also discussing them on the Dapol Digest. If as long as you do not make comments on there, you are happy with the incorrect results when delivered, then no worries.

I am discussing them direct with Dapol and will be assisting them in any way I can when we meet next week. I only raised the matter on here because this is where I first saw the pictures.  (CJL) 

Edited October 31, 2016 by dibber25

[Chris Higgs]

Perusing a book on First Generation DMUs suggests that Class 122 (gloucester) had lining bands that were the same width above and below the windows, whereas the Class 121 (Pressed Steel) had a narrower band abve the window.

 

The lining detail is also different - the Class 122 has joggles in both lining bands where the sides meet the front, whereas on the 121 the lining band goes straight on all around the body at the same height.

 

The Dapol 122 sample looks correct in both regards. By contrast, the N Gauge Dapol 122 I have is not - it is painted in the style seen on 121s.

 

Another subtle difference is that the cab window surrounds look to be polished metal on the 121s, whereas they are painted in body colour (green) on the 122s. Again the N gauge 122 has this wrong (and looks naff because of it to be honest)

 

The same book has photos of both Class 116 and 117 as delivered with no lining other than the whiskers on the front. All the bubble cars are lined.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Chris Higgs

[Chris Higgs]

Perusing a book on First Generation DMUs suggests that Class 122 (gloucester) had lining bands that were the same width above and below the windows, whereas the Class 121 (Pressed Steel) had a narrower band abve the window.

 

The lining detail is also different - the Class 122 has joggles in both lining bands where the sides meet the front, whereas on the 121 the lining band goes straight on all around the body at the same height.

 

The Dapol 122 sample looks correct in both regards. By contrast, the N Gauge Dapol 122 I have is not - it is painted in the style seen on 121s.

 

Another subtle difference is that the cab window surrounds look to be polished metal on the 121s, whereas they are painted in body colour (green) on the 122s. Again the N gauge 122 has this wrong (and looks naff because of it to be honest)

 

The same book has photos of both Class 116 and 117 as delivered with no lining other than the whiskers on the front. All the bubble cars are lined.

 

Now I am just pondering repainting my Dapol N Class 122 as it seems just about everything is wrong with its livery. Or I could renumber it as W55033, the Class 121 that had a small destination box.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Chris Higgs

[dibber25]

The best I can do to illustrate the different shades of green is these two Swindon Cross Country units (Class 120) one in the light green at Gloucester and one in dark green at Plymouth. Both taken in 1964. Sorry about the quality these were Kodak Brownie shots taken when I was 18. They do show that there's a very significant difference in the colour. I guess they might be appropriate on the Heljan page, too. (CJL)

[MGR Hooper!]

Final approval samples can be seen here!
https://digest.Dapol.co.uk/forum/main-forum/class-121-122-aa/project-managers-blog/3455-decorated-samples-class-122

[Market65]

Sorry, but the lining is much too thick on the green livery example. It needs to be about half of what it is.

 

Regards,

 

Rob.

[Ramblin Rich]

I don't think the all blue version should have a sealed beam headlight either?

[Pedro32]

I don't think the all blue version should have a sealed beam headlight either?

Indeed. "Please note they are 1st decorated samples and physical details such as headlights may not be correct per the production version".

 

Cheers

[Ramblin Rich]

Indeed. "Please note they are 1st decorated samples and physical details such as headlights may not be correct per the production version".

 

Cheers

Thanks for pointing out that comment, although it wasn't in the most recent post!

[MGR Hooper!]

I don't think the all blue version should have a sealed beam headlight either?

https://img.youtube.com/vi/otKAX3Tcqkg/0.jpg

[Ramblin Rich]

https://img.youtube.com/vi/otKAX3Tcqkg/0.jpg

Interesting - is that a preserved example though (looks a bit clean)...?

[adb968008]

Interesting - is that a preserved example though (looks a bit clean)...?

It's a preserved one,taken at Bury.

[DavidM]

https://img.youtube.com/vi/otKAX3Tcqkg/0.jpg

 

Not valid for actual BR service although this example carries it in preservation, as it did in later BR days as a route-learning vehicle.... 975023

[Gwiwer]

Oh dear.

 

Again Dapol seems to have gone very wide of the mark with livery application.  Let's hope it isn't too late to get things right.  Also of course studio photography does not always do justice to the actual colours as the eye sees them; lighting can distort or wash out colour and most models look better in a realistic setting than against a white background.

 

Which shades of green are these cars attempting to represent?  Neither matches the photos shown above (post 262) which allowing for weathering and the differences between varnished paint and coloured plastic still look significantly different to both models.  The cream lining on the green car is too thick.  It was a pencil lining not a livery stripe.   The comparison shot of the two cross-country units gives an idea of how it should look.  The destination on the car (Totnes L/H) suggests an as-preserved model (Totnes Littlehempston was never on the BR network) so perhaps a preserved car is painted differently to the original livery and this has merely been copied. The application of the yellow panel appears to have fuzzy edges.  W55000 (as it began life) was indeed a WR car though migrated to ScR then LMR later; SC55007 should not be showing a WR destination.  Neither car is listed as being "as preserved" so the assumption is that they are intended to be in BR days.  For BR era the destination font is wrong and is an issue "Andy Dapol" acknowledges on their forum.  The blue square coupling codes were normally beneath the marker lights meaning the early green one may be wrong.

 

For the b/g one the application of liver at the top left-hand corner of the cab door looks sloppy.  The livery is correct for its later guise with headlight and white-on-black "set" number though both are late variations.  Upon repaint to b/g there was no headlight and the set number would have been black numerals (preceded by a district letter either B, C, L, P or S) directly applied to the yellow end for a WR car, or none at all for other regions.  It is listed as W55002 which I believe should be set number 102 not 106.  When did blue square coupling codes cease to be displayed?  Should this have them?

 

I question whether the Reggierail livery is using the correct shades; all seem light but this may be an affectation of studio lighting.  Again the yellow seems to be fuzzy in its application

 

The blue one is listed as SC55013 which therefor should not have a headlight and arguably not a set number though I'll let the ScR cognoscenti confirm the latter point.  It should have blue square coupling codes applied beneath the marker lights.  The yellow application on this one seems good.

 

It is not clear from the angle of shot whether or not the lamp irons partially obscure the marker lights; they should not. The lamp irons also appear chunky.  On all cars the marker lights seem a little large and proud especially when compared with the later addition of the boxed headlamp.

 

I'm no-one's expert.  But given there might be a chance to correct any errors at this stage before they are carried into production we should feel free to venture our opinions. It is our money Dapol are chasing after all.  If the product isn't right sales will be affected.

[lyneux]

Regarding the Blue/Grey livery on 55002:

 

1) 55002 never was scrapped before receiving a high intensity headlight (withdrawn 86, scrapped 87).

2) The livery application on this vehicle was different to others in the class (the grey band was much deeper (check the gap between the lower window frame and the edge of the grey band to see what I mean). Dapol have got this right but by choosing 55002 as the B/G example it might make re-numbering without re-painting tricky.

 

 

 

 

[lyneux]

For the b/g one the application of liver at the top left-hand corner of the cab door looks sloppy.  The livery is correct for its later guise with headlight and white-on-black "set" number though both are late variations.  Upon repaint to b/g there was no headlight and the set number would have been black numerals (preceded by a district letter either B, C, L, P or S) directly applied to the yellow end for a WR car, or none at all for other regions.  It is listed as W55002 which I believe should be set number 102 not 106.  When did blue square coupling codes cease to be displayed?  Should this have them?

 

Agreed - the set number is wrong for this set. Photos just prior to withdrawal show no set number at all at the ends (except on the chalkboard inside?), e.g. https://www.flickr.com/photos/67444577@N02/6972334759.

 

Guy

[keefer]

Sc55013 was one of the cl.131 parcels conversions and was converted while still in green: https://www.flickr.com/photos/walterburt/20578109314/

and was in green until at least 4/9/71: https://www.flickr.com/photos/david_christie/15176763011/

(EDIT: Longworth has them converted to parcels 9/71)

Therefore in blue, it should have the extra sets of double doors and white windows. The unused doors weren't sealed up but handles were removed.

 

The extra set of doors differed on each side - with the brake van to the left, the other doors are at the far RH end (photo in 1981 by 53a Models):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/12453155545/

 

With the brake van on the right, the extra doors are 3 bays in from the LH end (photo in 1979 by Brian Daniels):

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5808812867/

Edited November 16, 2016 by keefer

[The Stationmaster]

Blue square coupling codes on green liveried cars were in the normal position of outboard of the lampirons in the bottom corner - the ones on the Dapol samples are correctly positioned.

 

As has been noted several times the green on the early version is incorrect (possibly misled by reference to the Colourail photo linked in post 254?) - knowing what the green actually is of course can be influenced by the way the camera saw it and the way our monitors reproduce it although it does indeed look too dark.  But, as he informed us above, Chris Leigh is in touch with Dapol regarding the livery detail on the green version and Chris is well aware of what these cars looked like in their early days.

[159220]

Might I ask, why have you not 'ventured your opinion' on the Dapol Digest? Such comments I feel would be highly beneficial for Dapol to hear and reply to. Currently they are requesting further information from customers to improve this model superbly: https://digest.Dapol.co.uk/forum/main-forum/class-121-122-aa/project-managers-blog/3455-decorated-samples-class-122?p=3728#post3728

 

I have followed comments on products written for a few years and feel, beyond doubt, that the Digest is the answer to the years of concern for detail errors in tooling and livery application. Finally the RMWeb post not satisfied with a Dapol model in development, can now directly communicated with Dapol to help deliver exactly a level of detail to which the customer is satisfied with.

 

Expressing concern on here is valid for a discussion, long as it is relayed onto the Digest to importantly have a particular concern addressed. Without, posts on here shall continue to express disappointment rather than positive and welcoming discussion.

 

I hold no knowledge of older BR liveries, but when livery samples of either Chiltern, SWT or Network Rail are shown (perhaps the latter two in later batches) I shall be making comment as a customer directly on the Digest where it shall be noted and addressed.

 

But given there might be a chance to correct any errors at this stage before they are carried into production we should feel free to venture our opinions.

[dibber25]

Blue square coupling codes on green liveried cars were in the normal position of outboard of the lampirons in the bottom corner - the ones on the Dapol samples are correctly positioned.

 

As has been noted several times the green on the early version is incorrect (possibly misled by reference to the Colourail photo linked in post 254?) - knowing what the green actually is of course can be influenced by the way the camera saw it and the way our monitors reproduce it although it does indeed look too dark.  But, as he informed us above, Chris Leigh is in touch with Dapol regarding the livery detail on the green version and Chris is well aware of what these cars looked like in their early days.

 

Have spent some time with Dapol and shown them my Lima cars in light and dark green liveries and I've seen their livery samples 'in the flesh'. Matching the original greens to a huge range of colour swatches is a difficult business and it was interesting that with three of us trying to do so, we all came up with different choices. It is nowhere near as easy as people think, and once chosen, it then has to go through the factory 'interpretation, too, with no guarantee that the eyes there will see it the same as we did. Anyway, the Dapol guys went away with a clear idea of what they wanted in terms of the two shades of green. I was incorrect with regard to lining on the 122 (the top and waist lines are almost identical thickness) while the 121 should have a thinner top line and a more pronounced 'S' shape where the top line rises over the windscreen. The late repaint used on the Bedford-Bletchley line had the shallow 'S' which was quite different from the original style. I've always been pleased with my 122 conversion from Lima (it even won a prize on one occasion) but the new Dapol model looks to be a big improvement. (CJL)

[The Stationmaster]

Have spent some time with Dapol and shown them my Lima cars in light and dark green liveries and I've seen their livery samples 'in the flesh'. Matching the original greens to a huge range of colour swatches is a difficult business and it was interesting that with three of us trying to do so, we all came up with different choices. It is nowhere near as easy as people think, and once chosen, it then has to go through the factory 'interpretation, too, with no guarantee that the eyes there will see it the same as we did. Anyway, the Dapol guys went away with a clear idea of what they wanted in terms of the two shades of green. I was incorrect with regard to lining on the 122 (the top and waist lines are almost identical thickness) while the 121 should have a thinner top line and a more pronounced 'S' shape where the top line rises over the windscreen. The late repaint used on the Bedford-Bletchley line had the shallow 'S' which was quite different from the original style. I've always been pleased with my 122 conversion from Lima (it even won a prize on one occasion) but the new Dapol model looks to be a big improvement. (CJL)

 

Chris, did they say anything about the (probably near impossible to achieve?) black lines on either side of the cream lining?  On the latest, much larger, pictures the lining looks a bit odd to me because the black edging isn't present but it would be a very thin line in 4mm scale of course.