Landslip at Hatfield & Stainforth

[Etched Pixels]

I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case. It is the modern way of doing things. Cheapest and quickest and don't worry about the future too much if it reduces the profits now. Land drainage generally is badly neglected and many ditches and dykes have been left to get choked and blocked as there is no profit in spending money clearing them.

 

It's not just the modern way. It's how it often used to be done too - ask the Gloucester 8) Quite a few of our coal tips are a) higher than the Netherlands and b) have bases that are 2-300 years old and predate any record keeping or real understanding of the problem.

 

I think it's also a bit early to be assuming that the problem was solely modern or entirely the fault of the current mine owners, time (and the high court) will no doubt eventually figure it all out. As to their insurers - it may depend how much insurance they carry. If its not an unlimited policy the insurer may not be too worried, but the council may have a very large problem on its books if the mine owner goes bust as a result.

 

Alan

[Richard E]

Actually Powerfuel (the company set up by Richard Budge to re-open this mine) went into receivership in 2011, the pit is owned by a Dutch company, Entero BV. see http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/business/400-jobs-saved-as-dutch-company-buys-hatfield-colliery-1-3354421.

[Banger Blue]

So far as I can see, this has been a very slow slip, so it would have had to have been badly mismanaged to have been a danger, and from what I can see it was not badly managed. (At least, from the railway side)

 

 

I sent the pictures, especially the aerial shots, to my FiL who is a retired mining surveyor and used to work the pits around Doncaster & Barnsley area, his words were that incidents like this don't happen overnight, the problem should have been seen in the inspections that should have been carried out on a regular basis, it may not have prevented a slip but people would have been forwarned and action could have been taken earlier to minimise the effects.

 

(My emphasis)

[t-b-g]

It's not just the modern way. It's how it often used to be done too - ask the Gloucester 8) Quite a few of our coal tips are a) higher than the Netherlands and B) have bases that are 2-300 years old and predate any record keeping or real understanding of the problem.

 

I think it's also a bit early to be assuming that the problem was solely modern or entirely the fault of the current mine owners, time (and the high court) will no doubt eventually figure it all out. As to their insurers - it may depend how much insurance they carry. If its not an unlimited policy the insurer may not be too worried, but the council may have a very large problem on its books if the mine owner goes bust as a result.

 

Alan

 

My comments were not so much about the specifics of the problem at Stainforth but more about the general state of land drainage in the area, which may have contributed to the problem as the land on the far side of the line to the colliery has been waterlogged for many years. My father in law worked for Yorkshire Water and part of his job was as to be one of a gang of 20 who spent all summer long clearing drainage ditches from new growth. The work is just not done now and what do you know, the area suffers from frequent flooding. Perhaps it is a coincidence but my father in law doesn't think so and he had 40 years experience at the blunt end.

 

I am really not assuming anything, just commenting on a posting regarding the lack of drainage planning on the tip.

 

The area he worked in is actually below sea level, so it doesn't take a genius to work out that drainage may be a problem if it is neglected. Hatfield Colliery is probably at pretty much the same sort of altitude.

 

This colliery is less than 100 years old and I class that as modern compared to when the land drainage schemes were being put in place.

 

I pass Stainforth station regularly as one of my daughters works a couple of hundred yards from troublesome slag heap and I give her a lift 3 days a week. The whole area is run down, uncared for and suffering from vandalism. There seem to be "travellers" caravans and tethered horses and ponies all over the place. I would think that even the idea of leaving anything on site overnight would give anybody working there nightmares! Access isn't easy either as you have the dodgy pit tip on one side and the railway line and lagoons on the other. It will be a very challenging task to sort it out and I wish those involved the very best in their task.

[t-b-g]

I sent the pictures, especially the aerial shots, to my FiL who is a retired mining surveyor and used to work the pits around Doncaster & Barnsley area, his words were that incidents like this don't happen overnight, the problem should have been seen in the inspections that should have been carried out on a regular basis, it may not have prevented a slip but people would have been forwarned and action could have been taken earlier to minimise the effects.

 

(My emphasis)

 

Spot on! I worked briefly in a coking works 30 plus years ago and regular inspections were carried out all over the plant. Even while I was there for a few months, decisions were made that it was expensive to carry out regular checks and to maintain the plant and that it would save money if we just waited until something broke and then fixed it. There were places on site that were deathtraps, such as rotten mesh walkways to the top of the coal conveyor belt towers but getting anybody to spend money to fix them was impossible, so you had to walk up with your feet wide apart on the main runners.

 

That plant is closed now but a friend of mine who has worked in the same factory for 40 years has had exactly the same done there and as a maintainence engineer he just waits for things to break.

 

Was Hatfield Colliery the same? I have no idea but with previous owners having gone down financially I would guess that money wasn't exactly flowing for routine maintainence work. 

 

If politicians are to get involved, it is those sorts of things they ought to be asking about. Who inspected the tip, how often and what is in their reports?

Edited February 15, 2013 by t-b-g

[stadman]

Looks like some kind of route learning schedule to me, but I can't tell if it's Northern or TPX

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O60601/2013/02/15/advanced

 

Logically TPX will have to have a few crews trained on at least one diversionary route, as any units working the wrong side of the gap will need to cycle back to base for maintainence at some point...

Empty stock move as said on schedule. Would expect a route learning unit to carry a "Z" in the code rather than "G"

Saying that the schedule also says VSTP, so amended rather than WTT.

Kev S

[stadman]

Never seen a slip like that before.

Covering or undermining tracks yes but to heave them like that.

[buffalo]

Never seen a slip like that before.

Covering or undermining tracks yes but to heave them like that.

Somewhat OT, but how about the Folkestone Warren slip in 1915? See the second photo on this page and a diagram here.

 

Nick

Edited February 15, 2013 by buffalo

[Glorious NSE]

I sent the pictures, especially the aerial shots, to my FiL who is a retired mining surveyor and used to work the pits around Doncaster & Barnsley area, his words were that incidents like this don't happen overnight, the problem should have been seen in the inspections that should have been carried out on a regular basis, it may not have prevented a slip but people would have been forwarned and action could have been taken earlier to minimise the effects.

 

(My emphasis)

Although there's some suggestions this was kicked off by underground movement which I'd guess is harder to predict I do agree - hence my qualifications on that post!

[Glorious NSE]

Never seen a slip like that before.

Covering or undermining tracks yes but to heave them like that.

Sorry I'm replying from my mobile so can't quickly look it up but google 'landslide blog' and look at the latest posts for one possible failure method. Edited February 15, 2013 by Glorious NSE

[Glorious NSE]

Empty stock move as said on schedule. Would expect a route learning unit to carry a "Z" in the code rather than "G"

Saying that the schedule also says VSTP, so amended rather than WTT.

Kev S

Not just a simple ECS move as it starts and ends at the same place plus covers the Brigg to Wrawby part (the bit least regularly used by passenger crews) twice in each direction...

[Richard E]

Apparently, according to my sources, the approach that will most likely be taken is to skim off part of the surface heave and spoil tip then pin the movement using piling. Once that stabilising action has been taken then the process of rebuilding the trackbed from scratch can take place. Looks like a long term project and very costly.

 

Costs will fall back on the mining company - incidentally Entero BV is owned ultimately by ING, a dutch bank. It now transpires that Entero only own 90% of the pit, the other 10% is owned by Hargreaves Ltd who also mine at Maltby. I just hope their insurance cover is adequate.

[James]

Empty stock move as said on schedule. Would expect a route learning unit to carry a "Z" in the code rather than "G"

 

In this area (so the same may apply south of the river) things which you might expect to be 'Z' run as xGxx - we've had a number of extra Golfs over the last few days.

[beast66606]

Not just a simple ECS move as it starts and ends at the same place plus covers the Brigg to Wrawby part (the bit least regularly used by passenger crews) twice in each direction...

 

It was caped anyway

[birdseyecircus]

Railnews is reporting that Network rail say the route may face indefinate closure which poses some interesting questions.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2013/02/15-colliery-slip-line-may-be.html

 

Paul

[Guest 838rapid]

Ties in with my previous post..

 

Posted Today, 12:52

I have just spoken to a Old work mate who is a Driver,and they have been informed that "their are to many Freights and its to slow to make it viable "

Edited February 15, 2013 by 838rapid

[Glorious NSE]

Railnews is reporting that Network rail say the route may face indefinate closure which poses some interesting questions.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2013/02/15-colliery-slip-line-may-be.html

 

Paul

 

I believe they mean 'indefinite' as in 'we don't know how long this will take' rather than 'forever' as it sometimes gets used...there's no way NR will accept a line this busy being shut permanently.

[Mallard60022]

BTW, Maltby is closed or is about to close.........Not much cash coming from from that direction then?

P

[Etched Pixels]

There will come a point where its quicker (and in overall costs in fines, to the bank and insurer) to simply give up and reroute the thing well clear of the mess. It could easily be a year or more otherwise.

[James]

Well, that's the north bank screwed for the weekend! Guess who's just granted a possession which has blocked the Selby line too?!

[6Y99]

If a train runs on the former Eastern Region it denotes that the train is internal special movement,Like F is on the western and P is on the Midland and so on and so on

[The Stationmaster]

If a train runs on the former Eastern Region it denotes that the train is internal special movement,Like F is on the western and P is on the Midland and so on and so on

When did that arrangement come in?

[Glorious NSE]

There will come a point where its quicker (and in overall costs in fines, to the bank and insurer) to simply give up and reroute the thing well clear of the mess. It could easily be a year or more otherwise.

Quite possibly - but a year isn't 'forever' and a deviation isn't a closure.

 

There is no chance of NR agreeing to a permanent closure IMHO

[SwissRailPassion]

Quite possibly - but a year isn't 'forever' and a deviation isn't a closure.

 

There is no chance of NR agreeing to a permanent closure IMHO

This is a difficult and evolving situation. The railway will be restored but how long it will take, and how to do it, is still unknown until things settle. Hence the word 'indefinite'.

 

Meanwhile the train planners will be having headaches trying to keep things moving.

 

50 freights a day are running via Brigg

Edited February 16, 2013 by SwissRailPassion

[Edwin_m]

I think realignment is out of the question.  To move a line sideways by a few tens of metres involves moving it over a length of many hundreds, unless a severe speed restriction is acceptable over reverse curves.  It would also require Transport and Works Act powers to go outside the existing railway boundary - a process which typically takes over a year although there may be a fast-track.