Landslip at Hatfield & Stainforth

[Mallard60022]

Immingham is totally geared up for coal, ore, oil and aggregate import and cars! I learnt that on GBRJ's with Portillo.The operation is huge and I don't think Hull has anything like that set up as well as not being deep water.

P @ 36E

[Gwiwer]

The diversion shown above by eastwestdivide seems the best idea. Farm land has in the past been sold for the tips. The existing slipping tip is best abandoned and left to its own devices.

 

I am reminded on Penmanshiel Tunnel.  The urgency was greater to establish a new alignment as there was no feasible long-term diversion in that case but the circumstances of having a major traffic route totally blocked and with the possibility that it could never safely be reopened weighed heavy in the decision to seek compulsory land purchase to cut a new alignment.

 

While to the best of our knowledge no-one has been fatally injured and entombed at Hatfield, unlike Penmanshiel, there may be merit in seeking a new alignment now with compulsory purchase powers used if necessary.  That could potentially be open and running in three months (though six might be a better bet) whereas the tip may not stabilise for a year or more and then there remains no guarantee it will not move again under similar conditions.

[JeffP]

If my experience of living in this area is anything to go by, DO NOT expect much to happen quickly, if ever.

 

It may sound like sour grapes to some, but so long as Hull isn't badly effected, and the steelworks can still operate, well, the rest of us can go and whistle.

 

We have been whistling for some time now..........

[ForestPines]

I think the port does not have the deep water berths as at Immingham.

 

Plus it's a fair bit further upstream on a hard-to-navigate, busy river, that already has a lot of pressure on its compulsary pilotage service.

[jonhall]

How about manning the north bank 24hrs and running freight through the to Hull Docks and out via Selby with traffic diverted from Immingham? The Docks Branch is good for 22 trains in and out a day since its upgrade but this capacity is never used.

 

This would take pressure off the south bank while Hatfield is still out of action.

 

Who owns Hull docks and Immingham docks? If its the same company then maybe (noting others comments on wharf capacity/capability) but you need to remember that if Immingham is a different company you are asking them to give their business to a competitor for the convenience of the railway, and if I were in Immingham's shoes I'd tell you where to go, and give my custom to the railways competitor (i.e. the M18). There will be numerous reasons why Immingham has the traffic it has, but fairly high up will be the great road an rail conectivity with central England - I imagine their management will be piling on the pressure to sort it out soon.

 

Jon

[James]

I don't "need to remember" anything. A friend who works for Freightliner told about this possibilty - Hull can take coal and the Docks Brnach can take up to 22 trains in and out a day and normally isn't used to its full potential. Both ports are owned by ABP and occasionally extra coal has come via Hull, we can tell and all of a sudden our breaks disappear. Both Hull and Immingham have similar motorway links -

 

Companies involved are the same, cover a third shift on the Hull - Selby line and you can even run through the night. The problem is that at Wrawby/Barnetby they're turning trains round to send via Brigg, this obviously is using up capacity so being able to divert trains clearly has benefits for all involved.

 

Jon, "you need to remember that" I do work in the area and talk to people involved with the running and planning of local operations.

[eastwestdivide]

Network Rail now saying "it will take 16 to 18 weeks to complete, approximately until the end of June":

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/News-Releases/7373/Rail-recovery-work-at-Hatfield-Stainforth

and they've added more pictures at:

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/Gallery?SubjectID=653

[Mallard60022]

So Hull is viable. That is good news and should take some pressure off the 'south bank' if implemented. So, is Barnetby busy, busy just now then?

P @ 36E

[James]

I believe so - again information passed on by friends who know signallers on the south bank. I need to pop across to see what's happening there I think!

[JeffP]

So Hull is viable. That is good news and should take some pressure off the 'south bank' if implemented. So, is Barnetby busy, busy just now then?

P @ 36E

 

 

HOW viable though?

Can it take the size of ship that Immingham does? Both coal and ore are landed at Immingham from deep water, no need to enter any dock.

Does it have the unloading facilities for both coal and ore?

Does it have rapid loading facilities for both?

 

And if any had to go by road, to talk of Hull docks having the same motorway links as Immingham is laughable. At Immingham, you leave the port straight onto a dual carriageway which they have agreed to upgrade further. You have less than a mile of single carriageway to negotiate to the A180, same applies as above, and it's all in the countryside.

 

At Hull you need to cross the entire water-frontage of the city to reach a decent road, and it can take well over an hour at peak times to get from the docks to the end of the Clive Sullivan Way.

I can just imagine the citizens of Hull being chuffed to bits with hundreds more lorries on THAT route carrying coal and ore, definitely NOT clean cargoes, ask the villagers round here when coal came in via the Trent ports and onto lorries during the miners' strike..

 

And since most of it is Scunthorpe-bound, there's the bridge tolls to add to every load....

[James]

The roads are very similar - a dual carriage way for several miles before you reach the motorway proper. However...

And since most of it is Scunthorpe-bound, there's the bridge tolls to add to every load....

Jeff, I think you're missed the point - a rail freight company want to run extra coal trains via Hull on a short term basis. It avoids the need to route trains via the Brigg line leaving more space for the Scunthorpe trains to turn round before heading via Brigg.

 

Incidentally, extra ships of coal heading to Hull is exactly what happens late summer when the power stations are stock piling ready for the autumn/winter.

Edited March 1, 2013 by James

[6Y99]

The traffic that is wantng to be moved is for the Aire Valley and Trent Valley Power Stations all the Scunthorpe traffic (Coal and Iron Ore) is being being moved as booked the problems are occuring with the power station traffic not all of it will switch to the North Bank but small ammount of it will and the smaller ships will be sent to Hull instead of Immingham or thats the plan the FOC's have been told of anyway infact it is already happening there is an extra train already leaving Hull Coal Terminal at 2016 for Rugeley and GBRF are loading an West Burton train over night. As James say's the line is good for 22 trains a day and to be honest its about time it was used to its capcity as well and with the American coal producers slashing the price of coal mined in the USA and the our power generators buying it up like there is no tomorrow I would say all the Ports that handle coal will be busy with this additional tonnages.

[scorpion]

the ore is going to scunthorpe, the line is not blocked, why ship it to hull?

[6Y99]

Right the Scunthorpe Traffic coal and Iron Ore is not going to Hull that traffic is running as normal its power station coal that is cuasing the porblems

[James]

the ore is going to scunthorpe, the line is not blocked, why ship it to hull?

a rail freight company want to run extra coal trains via Hull on a short term basis. It avoids the need to route trains via the Brigg line leaving more space for the Scunthorpe trains to turn round before heading via Brigg.

 

Incidentally, extra ships of coal heading to Hull is exactly what happens late summer when the power stations are stock piling ready for the autumn/winter.

The traffic that is wantng to be moved is for the Aire Valley and Trent Valley Power Stations all the Scunthorpe traffic (Coal and Iron Ore) is being being moved as booked the problems are occuring with the power station traffic not all of it will switch to the North Bank but small ammount of it will and the smaller ships will be sent to Hull instead of Immingham or thats the plan the FOC's have been told of anyway infact it is already happening there is an extra train already leaving Hull Coal Terminal at 2016 for Rugeley and GBRF are loading an West Burton train over night. As James say's the line is good for 22 trains a day and to be honest its about time it was used to its capcity as well and with the American coal producers slashing the price of coal mined in the USA and the our power generators buying it up like there is no tomorrow I would say all the Ports that handle coal will be busy with this additional tonnages.

[jonhall]

I don't "need to remember" anything. A friend who works for Freightliner told about this possibilty - Hull can take coal and the Docks Brnach can take up to 22 trains in and out a day and normally isn't used to its full potential. Both ports are owned by ABP and occasionally extra coal has come via Hull, we can tell and all of a sudden our breaks disappear. Both Hull and Immingham have similar motorway links -

 

Companies involved are the same, cover a third shift on the Hull - Selby line and you can even run through the night. The problem is that at Wrawby/Barnetby they're turning trains round to send via Brigg, this obviously is using up capacity so being able to divert trains clearly has benefits for all involved.

 

Jon, "you need to remember that" I do work in the area and talk to people involved with the running and planning of local operations.

 

Sorry James, that didn't come out quite as I intended, what I was driving at was that (as is often the case on enthusiasts forums) this thread felt to me that we were forgetting that the railway isn't being run for the railways (or enthusiasts) benefit, but for the customer's - in this case even ABP isn't the ulitmate customer - its  just another transport supplier and will be in competition with every other port in the UK.

 

ABP will want to remain competitive and I'd have to presume that the 'base' load was going via Immingham because thats where lowest cost/highest profit/best service equilibrium is and just because Hull is nearby dosn't automatically make it the next most suitable port for the traffic (although in this particular case it's use as an extra 'peak demand' coal port implies that it is). I seem to recall a flow of coal trains suddenly appearing over the Settle-Carlisle line coming from a coal import dock (in Scotland somewhere? ) because that was the cheapest route when everything was considered - now in that case 'the railway' got the benefit of a larger ton-mileage so presumably did well out of it.

Jon

[James]

Sorry James, that didn't come out quite as I intended

No worries Jon

 

I think these are quite special circumstances - as a short term arrangement it's certainly viable. The key thing is the end user (the power stations in this case) receiving their fuel on time. Many of the coal trains from Hull use the Goole - Donny line but these have been switiched to running via Selby or the single line beyond Goole via Hensall. So we've been adapting as to what we do - and I've not wrong routed anything yet!

[eastwestdivide]

Back on the ground at Hatfield... your roving reporter has been roving again.

 

I've just been over there again this morning, and there's a lot more activity than my last visit, including a dozer working part of the slipped heap, various bods in high-vis looking at things, a new access point (steps) to the track, and a railborne trolley thing in H&S station, with staff attending to it. Also notices up showing the temporary closure of bridleway rights of way.

Photos to follow later when I get a chance, unless someone beats me to it.

 

Also of interest, the rails are rusty in Hatfield & Stainforth station, apart from a run-round loop on the north side. This appears to be for the trains which are taking colliery waste (I think) to build earthworks for the Doncaster North Chord.

Further round, by the site of the old Thorpe Marsh power station, on the freight-only line linking H&S to Adwick, only the westbound track is shiny, and the new siding on the power station site (S side of the line) was occupied by a top-and-tailed materials train (EWS 66s).

So using my best rusty rail detective abilities, it looks like these materials trains come from the Doncaster direction via Kirk Sandall to Hatfield, reverse in the loop there, and run west to Thorpe Marsh, then after unloading continue west via Adwick to wherever they started.

Was Maltby mentioned as a source for colliery waste for the new chord?

 

Down by Joan Croft crossings, there's the beginnings of groundworks for the Doncaster North Chord, including what looks like the beginnings of a haul road (from Thorpe Marsh?) across the lane by the level crossing, but no actual construction out of the ground yet.

Edited March 1, 2013 by eastwestdivide

[scorpion]

could this explain the DRS top and tail spoil wagons that have been going up the Hatfield line recently

[eastwestdivide]

could this explain the DRS top and tail spoil wagons that have been going up the Hatfield line recently

Could be, but today's were definitely EWS 66s. Maybe there's more than one source for the material, or else the DRS is something else entirely.

The odd thing was that two tracks in the loop at H&S were shiny, but the train was top and tail, which you'd have thought would only need one track. That's assuming it's actually a loop - need to check that.

[Richard E]

The work has been going on at Shaftholme/Joan Croft junctions for a month or two now although all that can be seen are a few cuts in the topsoil and the start of some access tracks to the ECML. This is mainly in the triangle bounded by Joan Croft Lane to the north, the ECML to the east and the line to Knottingley to the west. https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=53.583487,-1.105156&spn=0.029451,0.064201&t=h&z=14

 

On the east side of Joan Croft crossing the road has gained a lot of width in the form of some large concrete pads that appear to virtually double its size. On the western side little can be done due to the cottages adjoining the ECML. Looks like one that will develop slowly at first.

[eastwestdivide]

Right, back again after a quick bit of photo processing, all taken this morning, 1 March:

 

Something going on at Thorne Jn

 

The landslip across the tracks, showing some sort of machinery on site (the green arm to the left), plus evidence of tree felling. Plus a wider view showing a removed section of track

 

Those electricity lines again

 

This dozer was working on the heap

 

Anyone know what this is? Gas monitoring? It was on the waste tip the other side of the line to the colliery, not the only one.

 

The station, with rail-mounted excavator in front of (or on) a trolley thing, plus the shiny rails in the loop (N side)

 

And the top and tailed materials train in Thorpe Marsh

 

[eastwestdivide]

One last pic for now, a comparison between my photos of 18 Feb and 1 March:

[The Stationmaster]

No worries Jon

 

I think these are quite special circumstances - as a short term arrangement it's certainly viable. The key thing is the end user (the power stations in this case) receiving their fuel on time. Many of the coal trains from Hull use the Goole - Donny line but these have been switiched to running via Selby or the single line beyond Goole via Hensall. So we've been adapting as to what we do - and I've not wrong routed anything yet!

Point of interest here - the coal belongs to the power generators - they specify which port it is to go to, they decide which supplies they want brought forward and when and from where to where.  Obviously they are advised by 'the railway' when a particular route is going to be problematic (as if they hadn't noticed) but the decision rests with them - not with the rail operators or ports.

 

And keep pulling the right levers James.

[newbryford]

 I seem to recall a flow of coal trains suddenly appearing over the Settle-Carlisle line coming from a coal import dock (in Scotland somewhere? )

Jon

 

Probably Hunterston Import Terminal. Then again, it could've been a short-term flow from the Ayrshire opencast sites.

 

Cheers,

Mick