Marcus 37 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Lost for words this time Cav. Absolutely stunning. As everybody else is saying cant believe that it's 2mm. As for the red stripe 37 your right they wouldn't have been that faded in the period your modelling. I came across this gem of a picture today and its taken in 1988, what is unbelievable is its location. Having followed 37's for years I was quite embarrassed that I didn't know this had occurred. Only came across it by chance looking for photos of Black 5 5305. Check the link below: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mike_sargent/5812933598/in/set-72157626916984484 After some more investigating it got even better: http://deanopics.smugmug.com/Trains/37501-37699/23175293_T7fB5M#!i=1826815018&k=ZZwfj2t So looks as if I've got an excuse to get my red striped 37 chipped up to run on Kyle of Lochwilliam. Might even have ago at weathering it with your step by step guide. Look forward to further instalments. Marcus 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Hi Cav, that bridge is a credit to your modelling skills there my Friend, patience is always rewarded. Happy Modelling Craig. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Ben Posted January 25, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 25, 2014 Hi Cav, Loved the photo with the stock posed in place. As others have said, the homogeneity of the finish across bridge, loco and stock is a joy. It's your call of course, but as to stock, I'd keep focus on the inspiration that's driving you; once the layout is up and running and you've enjoyed watching your 37s and 47s sweeping through the scene maybe then, to keep things fresh, you might fancy adding a 60 with a rake of Tiphook KFAs and moving things forward a couple of years... just because you can! Talking of which, have you any thoughts for the ICI hoppers that I remember seeing with pairs of 37s? Would they be needed for your layout? cheers Ben A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimleygrid Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Hi Cav, now it would not be fair on your superb bridges to deny them the right to allow a class 60 to pass over. Come on, they are lovely models and it would only be right to stretch your period slightly to allow one on Millers Dale. You know it makes sense!...... Only joking with you Cav, at the end of the day it is your layout. Anything would look superb running on it, and will. Keep up the good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Yes Ben for now Ill stick with the late 80s stock. As for the ICIs they were routed north from peak forest whereas Millers Dale is to the south. The wagons would have to be scratch built in any case if I wanted to model them. Maybe something I look at later in the day once the core stock is sorted out. The NGS roadstone hoppers are more important at the mo. Hopefully I can offload my OO class 85 to pay for a rake. Anyway yesterday at Ponty I bought these. Very nice but will slow progress on the weathering as I will now need to fit these to it prior to finishing. I have one for 688 too these are very fine indeed. Top stuff. Edited January 26, 2014 by RBE 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
georgeT Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Morning Cav, Just been looking at the 37/56s on your workbench, and what an excellent job you have made on them, l'm now thinking that l might just go back to modelling them myself, cracking job with the N gauge, never knew you could do so much with things so tiny, l take my hat of to your sir, well done.. George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonas Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Thanks again for the step by step guide to the 37 bogie mod - I did mine yesterday and its made a big improvement to the look of the loco, it somehow looks heavier! Cheers pal. Edited January 26, 2014 by jonas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted January 27, 2014 Author Share Posted January 27, 2014 Morning Cav, Just been looking at the 37/56s on your workbench, and what an excellent job you have made on them, l'm now thinking that l might just go back to modelling them myself, cracking job with the N gauge, never knew you could do so much with things so tiny, l take my hat of to your sir, well done.. George Wow George they are a while back! Cheers for the thumbs up though. Im really enjoying the N now though and to be honest I think it will be a long while before I tackle 4mm again. Thanks again for the step by step guide to the 37 bogie mod - I did mine yesterday and its made a big improvement to the look of the loco, it somehow looks heavier! Cheers pal. Glad you managed to get it done. It dones make a massive difference which you dont really expect. The locos do look heavier, you have any pics? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonas Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 No pics yet but will try and grab one later if I remember! N gauge really is the scale for innovation at the moment, as well as the 2mm crew and their stunning work. I think its the emphasis on layout rather than just locomotive, or stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted January 28, 2014 Author Share Posted January 28, 2014 I agree. It really seems to be where its at at the mo. As Ive said though I think there is still the mindset that its not as detailled or realistic as larger scales which is poppycock given the new models available. There is absolutely no reason why an N layout cannot be appraoched as you would a larger scale one only with the benefit of having room to breath. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 37 Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 Hi Cav After seeing George Ts post I popped over to your work bench for a look. That was a fantastic job you did on those Vitrains 37's. A lot of people slate them but you have showed what can be achieved. Superb bit of work. Master of all scales. Regards Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanStock Posted January 28, 2014 Share Posted January 28, 2014 I agree. It really seems to be where its at at the mo. As Ive said though I think there is still the mindset that its not as detailled or realistic as larger scales which is poppycock given the new models available. There is absolutely no reason why an N layout cannot be appraoched as you would a larger scale one only with the benefit of having room to breath. True. I think it is long-overdue that there should be a general debate on how to move the scale forwards. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to be happening (much) inside the NGS. One would hope it wouldn't result in the splits seen previously in the 4mm world, but even then, for all that they caused ructions they did a great deal to improve overall modelling standards. There are some approaches which are somewhat different in 2mm, for example the effect of colour, which tends to be far too saturated on most models. I also suggest that r-t-r rolling stock is always going to feature more heavily in 2mm due to its size - but there's much that can be done to stop it looking toy-like. And I certainly agree that N is *the* scale if you're more interested in 'railway in the landscape'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure what is meant by debating how to move it forward. I think that the only thing holding it back is preconcieved ideas that N (or 2mm looking from the outside in) is inherently less detailled due to its size and as such only suitable for an impression of a railway in a landscape for people who like to run long trains. This is not the case. It seems in fact to me that a lot of those that model N (not all) almost embrace this mentality and see it as an excuse to seemingly not have to worry about putting as much detail into the layout. How often do you hear this was omitted because in this scale its hard to see. Hence the toy like appearance and often unmodified rtr stock that is all too often seen. There has to be some kind of mental overhaul of the modelling masses to get N to the status it deserves I feel and the new levels of standards the manufacturers are shipping out stock wise does help but peoples mindset is where the issues lie. I was speaking to a chap at Pontefract last weekend with Brian Hanson and he was saying how he'd been speaking to someone who had commented that he shouldnt bother with 2mm scale detailling items because there was no call for it. This is the attitude we are up against as N gauge modellers. As far as the modelling is concerned an N gauge layout and its stock should be approached in no less a way as their bigger cousins and the techniques are 100% transferrable. Smaller doesnt mean an excuse to model badly. I think some of the new n gauge layouts being done on here such as par, horseley fields and hopefully Millers Dale if I can be so bold will help to show what can be done in the smaller scale. I agree Ian that colour is key with modelling i general and anything that is of scale size needs its colour muted slightly to avoid the look of a toy. Anyway I am hoping to get started on my 37 roof grilles later to show why Brian does need to keep producing detailing parts for N! Edited January 30, 2014 by RBE 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Cracking stuff Cav, without trying to repeat the other comments, which is difficult because they're bang on, it's the consistency across the bridge and rolling stock that really brings it together and shows where N gauge/2mm can really paint the bigger picture that the bigger scales can't. Oh, and I'll be stealing that 37 bogie mod... I agree 100% with you on the detail point in your last post, the comment about there being no call for N detailing parts completely astounds me! Now we have models that are fundamentally the right shape, surely the demand is greater than ever, and the market will only grow as more items become available! I might just take my oval of test track, a 66 and some pre grouping 5 plankers to an exhibition and call it the Great Western Mainline and see how it goes down if that's people's attitude to N... jo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Alister_G Posted January 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) Hi Cav, knowing how easy it is to miss things here on RMWeb, due to the sheer number of threads, I wonder if you've come across this thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/47161-settle-carlisle-n-gauge-1979-1983/ An example of modelling in N which illustrates you point very nicely that just because it's N doesn't mean you have to compromise on detail. Edited January 30, 2014 by acg_mr 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SouthernBlue80s Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Lovely stuff - great detail and colour Glad I stumbled accross this one I should model N, as I have limited room - But I struggle with my butter fingers to get it right with 00 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted January 30, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 30, 2014 I should model N, as I have limited room - But I struggle with my butter fingers to get it right with 00 The smallest part you can deal with is still physically the same size in all scales! Just the larger scales need even more detailing. There have been plenty of N gauge modellers over the years who have shown that good levels of detail are just as possible in N. Cheers, Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanStock Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 (edited) I'm not sure what is meant by debating how to move it forward. I think that the only thing holding it back is preconcieved ideas that N (or 2mm looking from the outside in) is inherently less detailled due to its size and as such only suitable for an impression of a railway in a landscape for people who like to run long trains. This is not the case. It seems in fact to me that a lot of those that model N (not all) almost embrace this mentality and see it as an excuse to seemingly not have to worry about putting as much detail into the layout. How often do you hear this was omitted because in this scale its hard to see. Hence the toy like appearance and often unmodified rtr stock that is all too often seen. There has to be some kind of mental overhaul of the modelling masses to get N to the status it deserves I feel and the new levels of standards the manufacturers are shipping out stock wise does help but peoples mindset is where the issues lie. I was speaking to a chap at Pontefract last weekend with Brian Hanson and he was saying how he'd been speaking to someone who had commented that he shouldnt bother with 2mm scale detailling items because there was no call for it. This is the attitude we are up against as N gauge modellers. As far as the modelling is concerned an N gauge layout and its stock should be approached in no less a way as their bigger cousins and the techniques are 100% transferrable. Smaller doesnt mean an excuse to model badly. I think some of the new n gauge layouts being done on here such as par, horseley fields and hopefully Millers Dale if I can be so bold will help to show what can be done in the smaller scale. I agree Ian that colour is key with modelling i general and anything that is of scale size needs its colour muted slightly to avoid the look of a toy. Anyway I am hoping to get started on my 37 roof grilles later to show why Brian does need to keep producing detailing parts for N! Oh I don't mean a formal conversation. They normally end in tears anyway! What I meant was more the sort of on-going questioning of all those false assumptions about 2mm that still endure. The best way to challenge them is to produce brilliant models - but there are also some specific issues that need to be tackled - track standards is a good example. I also don't think we've fully solved the coupling problem either - I don't find the Dapols that great. I think things like colouring and landscape techniques are worthy of further exploration - some of those larger scale techniques have yet to come fully across, and some are different anyway, for example is static grass useable and worth it in N? Or are there better ways? There still seems to be a big unexplored area in terms of *how* we scale things down. One beef of mine is that many N gaugers still try to cram too much in - a misunderstanding of the spatial advantages we have, IMHO. In particular, the gains that can be had by *not* compressing distances. The incorrect proportions between the length and width of many models is more glaring than many realise. Or at least it is when you start avoiding doing it and see the benefits - which *is* a realistic proposition in 2mm. I think a greater realisation of how things scale to 2mm would help - one still sees things that are more grossly over scale in 2mm than in the larger scales - for obvious reasons, but it could do with tackling as an issue. Then there is the lack of awareness of anything that even vaguely resembles real railway practice seen on many models - probably a consequence of the toy mentality again... I could go on! All I really meant was something equivalent to the discussion that has gradually moved standards higher in the larger scales, but the majority seem content not to have it. Edited January 30, 2014 by IanStock 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porco Rosso Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think the idea that N gauge/2mm is best for modern image will take a long time to make its mark. Many modellers who would otherwise build really good 2mm layouts are already heavily committed to 4 or 7mm scale. They probably made that decision when N gauge was mainly crude Poole Farish stuff. The guy making Birmingham New Street is probably the ultimate example. He started years ago and won't be finished for a long while yet. After all that commitment, he is unlikely to change scales, even though the N gauge stuff now available would make building the project in 2mm scale quite a practicable idea. Give it 10 years and things will have changed. A new generation of modellers will have come into the hobby, only knowing the higher quality N gauge models now available. There will also be a lot more modern image N and 2FS layouts on the circuit to influence them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanStock Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 I think the idea that N gauge/2mm is best for modern image will take a long time to make its mark. Many modellers who would otherwise build really good 2mm layouts are already heavily committed to 4 or 7mm scale. They probably made that decision when N gauge was mainly crude Poole Farish stuff. The guy making Birmingham New Street is probably the ultimate example. He started years ago and won't be finished for a long while yet. After all that commitment, he is unlikely to change scales, even though the N gauge stuff now available would make building the project in 2mm scale quite a practicable idea. Give it 10 years and things will have changed. A new generation of modellers will have come into the hobby, only knowing the higher quality N gauge models now available. There will also be a lot more modern image N and 2FS layouts on the circuit to influence them. Interesting take on it - I can see your reasoning. Perhaps what is beginning to happen is the dawning of a realisation that has been driven by the improvement in manufactured standards. Maybe it has just taken time to seep into the collective consciousness. But that's perhaps all the more reason why the determined/curious few could drive standards forward now, if it's possible. That's how 4 and 7mm advanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimleygrid Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Hi Cav, I wish you had told me about how good N gauge was before as it would have saved me a lot of space modelling Boxenby!.... I found this on YouTube and thought of your 37s on PCAs at Millers Dale: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornish trains jez Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Totally agree Mickey. This thread should be kept for the dedication to the progression of Cav's excellent Millers Dale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanStock Posted January 30, 2014 Share Posted January 30, 2014 Totally agree Mickey. This thread should be kept for the dedication to the progression of Cav's excellent Millers Dale. Absolutely fine by me - certainly no wish here to steal Cavs' thunder. In fact he and I had discussed whether there was any appetite for such a discussion, so we were kind of testing the water. If there is, then let's get it going - elsewhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted January 30, 2014 Author Share Posted January 30, 2014 I dont consider it stealing thunder. Keeps the topic up there while I proceed at pedestrian pace!! Haha. Nice work on starting the new topic Mickey. I wasnt sure where to start one TBH. Great video btw Alex. Interesting RfD 31 too. Dont remember many of those! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 37 Posted January 31, 2014 Share Posted January 31, 2014 I dont consider it stealing thunder. Keeps the topic up there while I proceed at pedestrian pace!! Haha. Nice work on starting the new topic Mickey. I wasnt sure where to start one TBH. Great video btw Alex. Interesting RfD 31 too. Dont remember many of those! Nothing wrong with pedestrian pace mate, your doing a splendid job. As for the 31 there was only the one and I believe it had the unofficial name "Phoenix" if I recall. Had it on a ballast job one night many years ago when I was just a spotty youth LOL. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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