Dave F more photos added 21 June from 1947 to 1955ish

[melmerby]

7288- that wouldn't be a chocolate and cream Hawkesworth, would it?

Some were produced in GWR livery for a short time under BR but without GWR insignia, as well as the few already built pre-nationalisation.

 

Keith

[DaveF]

No. 7289; the E4 has class 'A' lamps.

 

It is possible but unlikely that an E4 would be used on an express working at this time.

 

It is more likely that the loco is working as station pilot/shunter, which would carry two lamps front and rear,one red lamp and one white lamp, arranged over the buffers.  In a black and white photo it is just about impossible to differentiate between this and the express headcode.  

 

When Dad made any notes at all about photos he took it was at the time he took them, so the caption is likely to be correct.  His usual error was to forget which was up and down!!

 

David

[cctransuk]

Cambridge O7 WD 77450 up goods c1948 JVol7276.jpg

Cambridge O7 WD 77450 up goods c1948 JVol7276

77450 is missing from the 1949 ABC Combined Volume, and a bit of Googling lists it as a Cowloon - Canton Railway loco.

 

Was it exported after the 1948 photo, or is the photograph actually 77453 or 77458 - both of which are listed as being allocated to the ER in 1949?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited June 4, 2013 by cctransuk

[dagrizz]

Dave,

 

photo 7203 of 10001 at Brighton is dated c1952. 10001 moved to the SR in April 1953 but probably didn't receive the smaller BR emblem until May 1954 - prior to this it had the larger emblem.

 

Oddly though, the 6P5F power classification (painted just above the loco number) was supposedly added at the same time as the smaller emblem but I can't see it on that photo.

 

Graham

[stewartingram]

No. 7289; the E4 has class 'A' lamps.

Headlamps are appropriate for a station pilot duty - either 'loco assisting train' or alternate red/white. Common sight at Cambridge.

 

Stewart

Edited June 4, 2013 by stewartingram

[DaveF]

77450 is missing from the 1949 ABC Combined Volume, and a bit of Googling lists it as a Cowloon - Canton Railway loco.

 

Was it exported after the 1948 photo, or is the photograph actually 77453 or 77458 - both of which are listed as being allocated to the ER in 1949?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

John,

 

Having had a look at a very much enlarged copy of the original scan it appaears that part of the number is obscured by a bolt  or rivet on the bufferbeam.  I would say it could be 77458, especially as only a little later, in 1950, it was shedded at March.

I've altered the caption (and Dad's notes).

 

Dave,

 

photo 7203 of 10001 at Brighton is dated c1952. 10001 moved to the SR in April 1953 but probably didn't receive the smaller BR emblem until May 1954 - prior to this it had the larger emblem.

 

Oddly though, the 6P5F power classification (painted just above the loco number) was supposedly added at the same time as the smaller emblem but I can't see it on that photo.

 

Graham

 

Graham,

 

Many thanks for that.

 

I hadn't realised that we had had a family holiday in Brighton as late as 1954, as the only time Dad went there was for holidays.  I've amended the caption.

 

David

Edited June 4, 2013 by DaveF

[Oldddudders]

Can I just say how much I admire DaveF's attitude? I mean, he busts a gut to display these unique photos  - and we tell him the captions are off! Wonderful thread all round.

[DaveF]

This afternoon's batch, a bit earlier than usual - the sun's out so I want to go back into the garden.  Once again a mix of places and quality!

 

Please do keep the caption corrections and additions coming, it's much better if the captions are right for anyone who is doing historical research or modelling a specific year.  By the way "c" in front of the year means I know it could be at least a year either way. 

 

 

Sandy A4 60007 Sir Nigel Gresley down ex pass c1949 JVol7297

 

 

Huntingdon A2 up goods c1948 JVol7298

 

 

Hitchin A3 up ex pass c1948 JVol7300

 

 

Hitchin A1 60114 W P Allen down Flying Scotsman with dynamometer car c1948 JVol7301

Does anyone have more information about why the dynamometer car was attached?

 

 

Nottingham Victoria 2P 40420 pass Nottingham to Northampton c1949 JVol7302

 

 

Edwalton Jubilee 45607 Fiji up ex pass c1948 JVol7304

 

 

Cambridge B17 61619 Welbeck Abbbey from a different image c1948 JVol7305.

 

 

Market Harborough down ex pass c1951 JVol7306

 

David

 

 

[jwealleans]

Was the dynamometer car being used in relation to the locomotive exchanges? Either gathering data on 'native' loco performance or maybe as simple as being positioned? It did go onto the WR as part of the exchanges, did it not?

[DaveF]

This evening most of the photos are from the ex LMS.

 

Huntingdon A1 60118 up ex pass c1948 JVol7307

 

 

NottiNgham Mansfield Junction Fairburn 4MTT 42680 Nottingham to Mansfield c1950 JVol7308

 

 

Trent 2P 40458 up pass c1950 JVol7309

 

 

Edwalton 4F 44158 up pass c1950 JVol7310

 

 

Trent Fairburn 4MTT 42184 up pass c1950 JVol7311

 

 

Nottingham Victoria A3 up ex pass c1949 JVol7312

 

 

Rugby Jubilee up ex pas c1950 JVol7313

 

 

Nottingham Midland Tilbury Tank Nottingham to Worksop c1950 JVol7314

 

David

[The Lurker]

I'm interested by the references to Nottingham Victoria to Northampton trains (7302 et al). What route did these run by? If I understand things correctly Nottingham Victoria is a Great Central line station. Did the trains make their way from there on to the MML and via Market Harborough and on to Castle Station - or did they take another route off the GC later?  The services are clearly LMR motive power.

[Tequila Sunrise]

They ran south out of Victoria and turned left at Weekday Cross onto the GNR line to Grantham, almost to Bingham, turned right through Bingham Road, then down the LNWR&GNR joint line through Melton Mowbray

 

It was originally a L&NWR service, running into Nottingham London Road

Edited June 5, 2013 by Tequila Sunrise

[The Lurker]

_{Thanks - and thece to Syston I presume, and then Leicester, Mkt Har?  Although I lived in Northampton for 10 years most of the lines in the area had long been taken up and with it a myriad cross country services}

[Tequila Sunrise]

_{Thanks - and thece to Syston I presume, and then Leicester, Mkt Har?  Although I lived in Northampton for 10 years most of the lines in the area had long been taken up and with it a myriad cross country services}

No, they never ran on MR metals at all. They used the station on the LNWR/GE Joint Line at Melton (long disappeared), then down south to Welham Junction and onto LNWR metals through Market Harborough, where there were additional platforms on the west side of the station for LNWR trains, now also long gone. Then on LNWR metals more or less due south to Northampton.

[DaveF]

This afternoon's are a little later than usual, the sun was out today so I decided to have a drive inland in Northumberland.  For those who know the area I went to Otterburn and Rothbury, coming back along a nice single track lane with three fords.  Once off the A696  to Otterburn some roads were quite busy - at least one car every five minutes, others were very quiet - I saw one car in half an hour on the way back.

 

Now for the photos.  These are from Nottingham and Rugby again.  

 

Rugby Rebuilt Patriot class up ex pass c1950 JVol7315

 

 

Rugby Class 5 45418 up pass c1950 JVol7316

 

 

Rugby Stanier 4MTT 42585 le 1950 JVol7317

 

 

Nottingham Loco 2P 40553 c1953 JVol7320

 

 

Nottingham Goods South B1 up ex pass c1953 JVol7321

 

 

Rugby troughs Unrebuilt Royal Scot down ex pass c1950 JVol7323

 

 

Rugby Jubilee class 45636 Uganda up goods JVol7324

 

 

 

Nottingham Victoria O4 up coal c1952 JVol7326

 

David

Edited to amend loco number and name

David

Edited June 6, 2013 by DaveF

[Armchair Modeller]

Apologies for hijacking the thread, but here is a map of the route from Nottingham Victoria to Northampton. I would imagine a few people would find the route puzzling but in reality it was moderately direct. It just didn't go through any big places en-route. Based on very old maps, well out of copyright.

 

[DaveF]

Once again this evening we'll visit Grantham and then spend some time looking around the Nottingham area.

 

Nottingham Victoria K2 up ex pass c1953 JVol7327

 

 

Grantham C12 ecs c1952 JVol7333

 

 

Grantham Barrowby Road O2 down iron ore c1952 JVol7334

 

 

Trent Lane Junction East Midlands Gas Board shunter c1950 JVol7335

 

 

Nottingham Victoria J1 65009 l e and N2 69550 up pass c1950JVol7340

 

 

Grantham A4 60015 Quicksilver c1951 JVol7341

 

 

Nottingham Midland Fowler 4MTT 42373 up goods c1952 JVol7343

 

 

New Basford B1 61168 down pass c1951 JVol7345

 

 

David

 

 

[DaveF]

DaveF,

 

I am wondering if you father ever ventured down to photograph the GNR & LNWR joint line?

 

For those who are interested, more information on the GNR & LNWR joint line can be found here: http://www.meltonmowbray.steamrailways.com/index.php

 

I haven't found any black and white photos. There are a few colour ones taken many years after closure.  I think the train service was too sparse for him to bother with it, as he had to do all his traveling by train in those days so he wouldn't have got many photos and in the early fifties he was usually only free on Saturday afternooons and Sundays like most working people.  His weekday photos were usually taken in lunch breaks or when travelling for a business reason.

 

David

[45568]

Hi David,

               With nit-picking gear on, I suggest, from the length of the nameplate, that the Jubilee in 7324 is 45606 Falkland Islands.

cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

[The Lurker]

Thanks to Armchair Modeller and P D & SWJR for the Nottingham-Northampton route. My attempts to follow dismantled railways on the current OS / Street Maps was flawed because I foolishly assumed that the lines connected at Melton!

[DaveF]

Hi David,

               With nit-picking gear on, I suggest, from the length of the nameplate, that the Jubilee in 7324 is 45606 Falkland Islands.

cheers from Oz,

Peter C.

 

Peter,

 

I've had a look at my original higher res. scan and think that you are right.  Also the shed plate is wrong for 45536, as it has only one number, which I hadn't noticed before.  If it isn't 45606 then it would be 45686, but looking at the nameplate I think your idea is best.

 

I've altered the caption.  Very many thanks.

 

David

[JeffP]

More evocative images.

 

What becomes clearer is that, despite what you read about the late fifties/early 60's, locos were NOT all kept in a pristine finish, even back in 1948/9.

[Chris Turnbull]

More evocative images.

 

What becomes clearer is that, despite what you read about the late fifties/early 60's, locos were NOT all kept in a pristine finish, even back in 1948/9.

Very much so.  My memories are of dirty black locos that hardly ever saw a cleaners rag if at all.  Even the (supposedly) green ones were generally filthy.  Often, the only part that was given a wipe was the number.  One exception was right at the end of steam when one side and the smokebox door was cleaned with an oily rag.  If you saw the wiped side the loco looked great, if you got the other it was a normal filthy steam locomotive.  Can't say I've ever seen that modelled but then it was a very brief period.

 

Chris Turnbull

[DaveF]

Looking at Dad's photos it there appears to be distinct differences in cleaning of locos, by area and date.

 

In 1947 (from relatively few photos) a lot of LNER locos in both the Nottingham and Cambridge areas were reasonably clean.   The green engines seem to be cleaner, possibly because they were new (e.g.B1s) or had recently been ex works (e.g. some B17s).  Remember that by the end of the war most locos were filthy and there was a big backlog of maintenance and few people available for cleaning.  I suspect the LNER was making an effort to "sort things out" as labour became a little easier to obtain.  There are too few LMS photos in 1947 to say much at all.  It surprises me just how many locos seem to have been repainted and/or relettered LNER in full instead of the wartime NE.

 

In 1948/9 again recently painted and new locos are quite clean, many others are very dirty.  However, as years pass from 1948/9 it does appear that some of the larger passenger engines get less clean.  Grantham always seemed to be able to get engine cleaners, so their express locos are often cleaner than most.  

 

In general the ex LMS locos seem to be dirtier than ex LNER.  In early BR days as I've said Grantham made an effort, Kings Cross seems to have done so for express locos, many Cambridge locos are quite clean.  New England locos seem to have been very grubby.

 

Nottingham 16A (the ex LMS shed) appears to have had a few clean locos.  Many of the locos seen at Rugby whatever the type and size seem not to have been cleaned very often.

 

However, despite not being very clean there are fewer locos with white stains, rust and so on than later on.

 

It is always tempting to think of those days as some halcyon time, I'm afraid my memories of the mid fifties onwards as a child born in 1949 are of the general dirt all around, not just on railways.  It was clear that many stations had not been painted in a very long time, much war damage had been poorly patched up, much roof glazing was still missing or painted black and so on.  If we want to see clean engines as the norm we need to go back to pre 1914, and even then some goods engines could be very dirty, and if you look at photos on the Midland Railway pre 1914 there were engines with damaged and dirty paint. 

 

The other thing I've noticed is just how many trains were hauled by the newest locos - A1s,  B1s and O1s in particular on the ex LNER and Ivatt and Fairburn locos on the ex LMS.  

 

It is also interesting to realise just how many locos were built, or at least ordered, by the "Big Four" in the years just after the war.

 

 

Edited to correct spelling

 

David

Edited June 6, 2013 by DaveF

[DaveF]

All this afternoon's batch are taken in and around Nottingham, only one is on the GC, the rest are all on Midland lines.

 

Nottingham Midland 2P 40504 l e c1953 JVol7347

 

 

Nottingham Goods South O1 up goods c1950JVol7349

 

 

Wilford Road Nottingham 2F up goods c1950 JVol7350

 

 

Nottingham Midland Jubilee Class 45657 Tyrwhitt up ex pass c1952 JVol7351

 

 

Nottingham Midland 2P 40548 down pass c1952 JVol7352

 

 

Wilford Road Nottingham 3FT 47433 l e c1949JVol7353

 

 

Stapleford and Sandiacre 8F down goods c1952 JVol7354

 

 

Wilford Road Nottingham Tilbury Tank up goods c1949 JVol7355

 

 

David