Pencarrow: nothing to see, move along please.

[N15class]

It's all looking very nice. It looks most impressive.

[N15class]

Just for you Rob:

 

tmp_17044-rps20161122_225522963973777.jpg

Fancy the foreigner getting first go.

[2ManySpams]

Fancy the foreigner getting first go.

 

Don't worry Peter, the O2 was first...

[2ManySpams]

It's all looking very nice. It looks most impressive.

 

Thanks Peter, I'm glad I didn't stick with the original 2.8m long layout design and am now going for the 4m long one. You think you have acres of space until the track starts going on and you add a few bits of stock.

 

I'm pleased how it's progressing though.

[N15class]

Now that's worrying. My Bodmin is only 6m plus fiddleyard long. Laid out on the floor it looks ok. Maybe I need to look again. Glad to hear the O2 was first.

[2ManySpams]

Now that's worrying. My Bodmin is only 6m plus fiddleyard long. Laid out on the floor it looks ok. Maybe I need to look again. Glad to hear the O2 was first.

 

There's only 3m in the above photos Pete, your boards are twice as long. The fourth board has yet to be made.

[Siberian Snooper]

The 1366 looks good, have you finished it yet? or does it still need some bits and pieces?

[Worsdell forever]

Spams visited Peterborough when BCB was there, he took Spams Junior who spent quite some time running Felton Lane.

[2ManySpams]

Spams visited Peterborough when BCB was there, he took Spams Junior who spent quite some time running Felton Lane.

 

I'd forgotten that.

[The Stationmaster]

Clearest shot I've seen so far... This example was at Boscarne so might be WR:

 

tmp_8679-rps20161121_193229-1355808846.jpg

 

That is the back (obviously) of  standard SR (by Westinghouse) ground disc signal with a  red 'arm'.  Model Signals.com item no. GS02 in 7mm scale (not sure if that is a kit or non-working casting), they do a Stevens 'drop flap' as item GS01.  Other 'net sources suggest that GS02 is actually an MSE kit which can be made as a working model.

[gwrrob]

Just for you Rob:

 

tmp_17044-rps20161122_225522963973777.jpg

I do like your limited edition chimney.

[The Stationmaster]

Right, these are small extracts for research and discussion purposes from photos in the SpamTowers library. Some appear to be sleeper mounted and others sunk into the ground. 

 

These are Bodmin:

 

Bodmin1.jpg

 

Bodmin3.jpg

 

Bodmin4.jpg

 

Bodmin6.jpg

 

Bodmin8.jpg

 

Bodmin2.jpg

 

Bodmin5.jpg

 

Bodmin7.jpg

 

Wadebridge:

 

Wadebridge1.jpg

 

Wadebridge2.jpg

 

Wadebridge3.jpg

 

Boscarne:

 

Boscarne1.jpg

 

Boscarne2.jpg

 

Tresarrett (not a ground signal but a clear view of a hand thrown turnout):

 

Tresarrett1.jpg

 

Several - if not all - of those on extended sleepers are mounted that way for the way the detectors are arranged (and very interesting way of connecting them to the detector, never seen or seen a pic of one of those but it looks as if the whole arrangement probably came from the Chippenham catalogue.  The one on a plate on concrete beds at Wadebridge might be a WR job, very much the standard Western way of doing things; but maybe Exmouth Jcn also made concrete beds too?

[2ManySpams]

I've mentioned previously that I'm going to wire the layout so that it can be used for either DC or DCC.

 

In DC it will be wired for two controller cab control with sections. 

 

In DCC it will have all the sections switched out via a clever master switch wiring scheme designed by Geoff.

 

My thoughts on where to install the section breaks for the DC version is below, have I missed anything obvious?:

 

[2ManySpams]

Geoff's wiring diagram to enable DC to DCC switching: Bottom switch is the master switch between DC and DCC, Top switch is replicated per section - so that's 10 then.

 

Lots of wires but maximum flexibility:

 

 

Thanks Geoff.

[Simond]

Chris

 

When I converted Ken Stansfield's Swanage to DCC, I left a couple of siding ends switchable, in order to be able to isolate a non-DCC-fitted loco.

 

This was handy for two reasons, firstly, DCC was very new and many of the group's locos were not chipped, and secondly, whilst the Lenz controllers we were using were able to run a DC loco on channel 00, you could only run one at a time, and it whistled horribly - and I believe that the motor gets quite hot if not running, but whistling, as it cannot generate the back EMF that limits the current.

 

Consequently, being able to turn them off was an advantage.

 

The fact that you're considering non-DCC operation suggests this might be worth a thought.(if your DCC controllers will run non-chipped locos)

 

Best

Simon

[Simond]

Chris, Geoff,

 

It might be simpler to have one cab switchable to DCC/DC, and the other DC only. The switchable cab can be connected via a dpdt. When running DCC simply turn all sections to the DCC cab.

 

I'm not suggesting that you run both simultaneously, but you can avoid the 4-pole switches - simpler and will save more than the price of a pint!

 

Hth

Simon

[Mark Forrest]

When I built Foundry Lane it was wired for DC, with a couple of isolation sections. When I went over to DCC, I simply made up a plug and socket to connect the track output from the DCC to the relevant two pins of the 5 pin controller socket. To changeover, I just unplugged one and plugged the other in; or at least I would have done were it not for the fact that once I'd started using DCC, I saw no reason to switch back to DC!

[Simond]

Mark

 

I have tried the approach you describe and can confirm it to work just fine.

 

Similarly, I have neither need nor desire to use DC again - section switching is a PITA, forcing you to drive the layout, rather than a loco.

 

Best

Simon

[Worsdell forever]

When I built Foundry Lane it was wired for DC, with a couple of isolation sections. When I went over to DCC, I simply made up a plug and socket to connect the track output from the DCC to the relevant two pins of the 5 pin controller socket. To changeover, I just unplugged one and plugged the other in; or at least I would have done were it not for the fact that once I'd started using DCC, I saw no reason to switch back to DC!

 

Did that with a couple of layouts and it worked fine, Greyscroft was later partially rewired and section switches removed, as Mark and Simon says (!) DC was then given up. It should be OK as long as the plugs and switches are up to the possible current draw of all those sound fitted MN & WC locos.

[2ManySpams]

There are three main reasons why I want to go the dual control route

 

1. Just about all the locos on Pencarrow will be kit built and, based on the 1366 experience and my abilities, this will take a fair few years to get through the building programme. I want to be able to thoroughly test each build on DC and eliminate any issues before installing the chip.

2. I don't want to preclude the option of running a visiting loco that isn't DCC fitted.

3. I want the DC option as a fall back should the DCC controller pack up. Whilst I'm not building Pencarrow as an exhibition layout  it will be exhibitable and I want to guard against the slim chance of DCC failure leaving the layout unusable.

 

I'm having a control panel anyway which will have the turnout and signal switches on, so adding 10 section breaks is no big issue.

 

In Geoff's diagram he's used 4PDT switches for the sections. If I'm understanding this correctly, two poles are to switch between DC cab controllers and the other two to switch between LEDs for the mimic board. I could do away with the LED switching and use 2PDT for simplicity but that seems daft.

 

So the only complication over and above conventional DC cab control is the 4PDT master switch. This seems a small price to pay for surety that everything can only be DC or DCC.

 

Oh  and I don't want to go down the route of have DCC Concepts style gizmos. I think these are great but they just take model railways down the 'non-user serviceable parts' road and make us reliant on the availability of replacement modules. If anything goes wrong with the layout I want to be able to fix it myself and, in the case of the DCC controller, have the DC fallback.

[Simond]

In view of point 2 above, if you have a DCC that will handle non-decoder-fitted locos, I'd stand by my original suggestion of having at least one "isolate-able" siding (or end thereof) in DCC mode

 

Can't disagree with your other preferences, if you want cab control & DC, it makes sense to have a mimic diagram, but it adds a fair chunk of work. I've chosen to go 110% DCC but this is a personal decision, of course. Even so, wiring is not trivial!

 

Best

Simon

[Geoff Cook]

In view of point 2 above, if you have a DCC that will handle non-decoder-fitted locos, I'd stand by my original suggestion of having at least one "isolate-able" siding (or end thereof) in DCC mode

 

Best

Simon

 

If you look at the diagram the top switch that handles the track section is a ON-OFF-ON so their can be total isolation of any section whether you are using DC or DCC

 

With regards running DC locos on a DCC system I thought that this was being phased out

 

It's to easy to mistakenly switch that section that's holding the DC loco on, and the first sign of trouble will be the loco letting the smoke out, when the layouts in DCC mode

 

Geoff

[Donw]

Chris I consider the wiring to be perfectly adequate. The single 4 pole switch to change between  DC and DCC has the benefit of being all or nothing relying on all sections to be switched to the same controller which can be changed makes it much easier to make a mistake.

Although I have used the option to run a DC loco as Loco 0 I would not advise it as 'normal'  practice. The loco is receiving all the time the DCC signal and when stationary loses the EMF to control the current. Isolating such a loco by a section switch is again too easy to switch in error. If you really need to park a DC loco while running on DCC I would suggest a special isolating section with a switch not used in normal running. With the cost of a coreless motor much better to be safe and take the loco off. Even with an isolating section another loco could bridge the isolation gaps and connect it through.

 

I note the two goods sidings top right of your diagram are not wired with isolation gaps and separate feeds to the sidings. This is fine operationally but if a sound equiped loco is parked there and the point switched against it any sounds such as a loco ticking over will cease. As I say no problem operationally but worth clarifying as you could end up searching for a problem if you were not aware.

 

One other thing I cannot remember what you are doing about the fy. Do remember that the locos have to be stopped from the DCC control. If stopped by disconnecting say a cassette when reconnected it will remember the speed and direction it was travelling in from before and promptly set off. I purposely tried and the memory had bee retained for a month so I assume it will be held until changed. Apart from that the beauty of DCC is the absence of the need to thick about section switches. Locos can be stopped anywhere and will not move because someone has thrown the wrong switch or forgotten it was there. Only a deliberate instruction will move the loco. It is of course possible if you had say two Well Tanks to get confused about which one you are trying to move and be issuing commands to the other.

 

Don

[Stubby47]

Will the DC/DCC switch be somewhere away from the main control board, such as in a lockable box under the layout ?

 

It might also be prudent (may be not if you know what you're doing) to have an indicator light on the control panel showing which mode is switched in.

 

I have to say that I consider driving via DC as being similar to a signal controlled environment - locos can only be moved when the correct signal / ground signal (equating to a section on the model even if not signalled) has been set. The ability to move any loco, anywhere that DCC provides quite frankly scares me - select the wrong loco address and something unseen can drive through points or off the end of a fy.

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

I have to say that I consider driving via DC as being similar to a signal controlled environment - locos can only be moved when the correct signal / ground signal (equating to a section on the model even if not signalled) has been set. The ability to move any loco, anywhere that DCC provides quite frankly scares me - select the wrong loco address and something unseen can drive through points or off the end of a fy.

 

JLTRT