Pencarrow: nothing to see, move along please.

[2ManySpams]

Found a date for the photo - it's August 1960.

 

The locos in the whole photo are both T9s, so goods yard definitely in use.

[Indomitable026]

I've had answer back on this already.

 

There's a suggestion that ithe rail may be sprung against the nose and that wheel flanges might have forced it open in the trailing direction.

 

Another one to trow in the mix.

[2ManySpams]

Enough chairs for Christmas:

 

That will do on the turnout timber front:

 

 

All nicely cleaned up.

[Indomitable026]

Ok this is a small extract from an August 1960 photo of Padstow. As I'm building track at the moment the turnout caught my eye.

 

tmp_18616-rps20161126_1303091178458206.jpg

 

Anyone spot what's strange about it?

Spams,

 

We've had further debate on this today. If you look at the very corner edge of the wing rail, it's polished. This supports the idea that it's sprung and forced open by vehicle flanges. The wheels polishing the end of the wing rail as they force them open.

 

So our consensus is that one side of the crossing is conventional, the other side has a wing rail that is sprung against the nose. This providing a smooth ride for the 'normal' setting.

 

Super rare by all accounts.

[2ManySpams]

Spams,

We've had further debate on this today. If you look at the very corner edge of the wing rail, it's polished. This supports the idea that it's sprung and forced open by vehicle flanges. The wheels polishing the end of the wing rail as they force them open.

So our consensus is that one side of the crossing is conventional, the other side has a wing rail that is sprung against the nose. This providing a smooth ride for the 'normal' setting.

Super rare by all accounts.

Very interesting. Looking through other Padstow photos I've got a sneaking suspicion that there may have been more than one installation. Think I can spot another in the yard by the fish sheds.

 

Would be interesting to model. You'd have to get the springing and stock weight just right.

 

Can't see the options in Templot to draw it up. Would be an interesting one for Martin!

[Dmudriver]

Spams,

 

We've had further debate on this today. If you look at the very corner edge of the wing rail, it's polished. This supports the idea that it's sprung and forced open by vehicle flanges. The wheels polishing the end of the wing rail as they force them open.

 

So our consensus is that one side of the crossing is conventional, the other side has a wing rail that is sprung against the nose. This providing a smooth ride for the 'normal' setting.

 

Super rare by all accounts.

Doesn't this mean it can only be used in the trailing direction?  Or is there some method of reversing that's not visible?  If not, the switch blade must be sprung, too?

 

Rod

[Indomitable026]

Doesn't this mean it can only be used in the trailing direction?  Or is there some method of reversing that's not visible?  If not, the switch blade must be sprung, too?

 

Rod

 

I don't know, this is so unique

 

I don't think its relevant how the switches are set up. It may be that you can force through the crossing in the forward direction as well, as there is a check rail to keep things right - but I'm guessing.

[Dmudriver]

I don't know, this is so unique

 

I don't think its relevant how the switches are set up. It may be that you can force through the crossing in the forward direction as well, as there is a check rail to keep things right - but I'm guessing.

Looking again at the photo. there is certainly equipment at the blades ends to move them: on that basis, your guess could well be correct.  I would imagine a very low speed restriction, too.  As you say, so unique.

 

Rod

[St Enodoc]

Spams,

 

We've had further debate on this today. If you look at the very corner edge of the wing rail, it's polished. This supports the idea that it's sprung and forced open by vehicle flanges. The wheels polishing the end of the wing rail as they force them open.

 

So our consensus is that one side of the crossing is conventional, the other side has a wing rail that is sprung against the nose. This providing a smooth ride for the 'normal' setting.

 

Super rare by all accounts.

I believe that there is/was a similar arrangement at Baker Street Junction on the Metropolitan, where the wing rails were biased for the Circle Line route and opened by the flanges of trains passing to or from (both directions?) the Aylesbury route.

[Donw]

Stationmaster seemed to think the wing rails were deliberately moved and that he had seen one or two similar.

Alan Brackenborough has two trailing crossovers on his garden layout which are weighted to hold them over. In normal running the trains push the blades over lifting the weight. However reversing the trains cross to the other line. They work well except when someone unthinkingly tries to reverse a train halfway past the crossover the rear half stays on the one line while the front half runs across the crossover you can end up with a coach with its two bogies on opposite lines. Taking the train forward will sort it out.

 

Don

[martin_wynne]

Ok  this is a small extract from an August 1960 photo of Padstow. As I'm building track at the moment the turnout caught my eye.

 

Anyone spot what's strange about it?

 

It's a spring crossing. The wing rail is forced open by the wheel flanges -- because of this it is very important that the check rail is correctly positioned and well maintained.

 

Here are the words and music from BRT3:

 

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Edited November 29, 2016 by martin_wynne

[N15class]

So how does it work running the other way?

[martin_wynne]

So how does it work running the other way?

 

The check rail pulls the wheelset across, opening the wing rail. That's why it is so important for the check rail to be in good repair.

 

(Railway wheels are fixed at a set distance apart on the axle -- if you pull one sideways it moves the other).

 

Martin.

[2ManySpams]

Many thanks Martin, very informative.

 

Any idea which timber forms the pivot point - is it the Y? Also what is denoted by the block under the rails midway between timbers X and A?

 

I wonder if it would could be made to work in 7mm or is it asking for trouble?

[Simond]

I'd guess it's asking for entertainment....

[Indomitable026]

Many thanks Martin, very informative.

Any idea which timber forms the pivot point - is it the Y? Also what is denoted by the block under the rails midway between timbers X and A?

I wonder if it would could be made to work in 7mm or is it asking for trouble?

Make it, make it!

[Donw]

Many thanks Martin, very informative.

 

Any idea which timber forms the pivot point - is it the Y? Also what is denoted by the block under the rails midway between timbers X and A?

 

I wonder if it would could be made to work in 7mm or is it asking for trouble?

 

I note that is says not normally used in a facing position. I believe one could work in the trailing direction in 0 although I would suggest using a small weight rather than a spring, However in the facing direction I would think it would be trouble  trying to use the diverging route. In a trailing direction the flare on the wing rail will act as a lead in to force the wing rail open. In the facing direction I suspect the flange of the wheels will strike the wingrail where it is closed. Unless the wagon is heavily weighted I suspect the pull from the check rail on the other wheel of each set will tend to lift the wheel set over the wingrail. THe dynamics of the situation will not scale down well.

No doubt someone could get one to work using well weighted stock carefully chosen but not with 100% reliability.

 

Don

[BG John]

Wouldn't it be best to cheat a bit, and motorise it so it opens when the turnout is set for the siding? Or be really clever and use an infra red detector to switch it when a wheel approaches.

[John R Smith]

I'm amazed that you could shunt over this without problems, seeing as this is the lead for the goods shed. And why here, at Padstow, in particular?

 

John

[martin_wynne]

Many thanks Martin, very informative.

 

Any idea which timber forms the pivot point - is it the Y? Also what is denoted by the block under the rails midway between timbers X and A?

 

I wonder if it would could be made to work in 7mm or is it asking for trouble?

 

Hi Chris,

 

The wing rail isn't pivoted, it flexes open. The drawing shows a spacer block bolted between the rails on the Y timber as the last fixing. The remaining length is free under control of the springs, which are the other items shown in the diagram. (Flat-bottom versions dispense with the springs, FB rail is stiff enough to spring back by itself).

 

For overscale model flangeways you may want to move the spacer block one timber back.

 

It could possibly be made to work in 7mm if all your stock using the siding or crossover is heavy enough. But perhaps not 100% reliably. The way to model it might be drive it with a hidden solenoid. You could control that from a sensor in the track as vehicles approach. Fun to do, but I'm not sure many would notice without being told.

 

edit: BG John got there before me!

 

Spring crossings are no longer used, because of the extra maintenance attention needed on the check rail. Motor-driven swing-nose crossings are sometimes used instead on high-speed junctions.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

Edited November 29, 2016 by martin_wynne

[Stubby47]

Could it be made to work from just changing the point ? If the blade was pivoted, and made to be in the closed position( rather than properly like most points) then moving the tie bar across would move the wing in the opposite direction, opening up the diverging path.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Stubby47

[martin_wynne]

Could it be made to work from just changing the point. If the blade was pivoted, and made to be in the closed position( rather than properly like most points) then moving the tie bar across would move the wing in the opposite direction, opening up the diverging path.

 

That was Wrenn and Welkut "Universal" fibre-based pointwork in the 1950s. Nothing new under the sun.

 

linked from: http://www.wrennrailways.org.uk/Track/PointB.jpg

http://www.wrennrailways.org.uk

Edited November 29, 2016 by martin_wynne

[Stephen Freeman]

That was Wrenn and Welkut "Universal" fibre-based pointwork in the 1950s. Nothing new under the sun.

 

linked from: http://www.wrennrailways.org.uk/Track/PointB.jpg

http://www.wrennrailways.org.uk

I remember them well, unfortunately. Possibly the most unreliable things ever made, though our experience was with the 2 rail version.

[John R Smith]

I remember them well, unfortunately. Possibly the most unreliable things ever made, though our experience was with the 2 rail version.

 

 

Hear, hear. They were crap. I had them on my 00 layout in the early 1960s.

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

I remember them well, unfortunately. Possibly the most unreliable things ever made, though our experience was with the 2 rail version.

 

I think I might actually have couple stashed away somewhere although I think I 'converted' them from 3 rail to 2 rail. (why bother to do that - simples, it was cheaper than buying a Streamline point if you already ahead a Wrenn 'universal' one in use)  BTW the Welkut ones were much better.