Ask Dave

[norman]

Given all the work done by DJ on at least the J94, why would he want to just give them up?

 

Roy

I am referring to the O gauge versions and I have not seen any progress to date so I was just wondering whether there is a time frame for production or will these two projects remain parked for a long time maybe.  In which case it would be useful if some one else were to take them on and bring them to fruition.

 

Norman

[Paul.Uni]

IIRC Dave has said previously that the profits of the OO gauge J94/Austerity 0-6-0ST would fund the first wave of N gauge models. The profits of which would fund the first wave of O gauge models.

Edited December 13, 2016 by Paul.Uni

[Roy Langridge]

The Implication is that not much progress has been made on them, despite previous assurances.

The statement was that Dave should give them up? Why? I bet a lot of research for at least the J94 carries over, why should he abandon that?

 

Roy

[Roy Langridge]

The Implication is that not much progress has been made on them, despite previous assurances.

 

Repeating yourself does not make the comment any more sensible - I was quite capable of reading it the first time. These are DJ models, Dave's investment and he can take as long as he needs - nobody has paid a penny for them. When they are ready people can buy them or not. I would suggest that there are a significant number of other models announced long before these by other manufacturers that are no further advanced.

 

If Ford announced a new car was being developed and a while later it was not out, would you expect them to hand it all over to a rival? Of course not, that would not be a sensible thing to say.

 

As for progress: http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=422 seems to indicate that they are further advanced than the Class 74s, which nobody if suggesting get handed over.

 

I have decided that for many on this forum, patience was in short supply the day they were taken out the tooling and packed in their red / blue / whatever coloured box.

 

Roy

Edited December 14, 2016 by Roy Langridge

[norman]

Repeating yourself does not make the comment any more sensible - I was quite capable of reading it the first time. These are DJ models, Dave's investment and he can take as long as he needs - nobody has paid a penny for them. When they are ready people can buy them or not. I would suggest that there are a significant number of other models announced long before these by other manufacturers that are no further advanced.

 

If Ford announced a new car was being developed and a while later it was not out, would you expect them to hand it all over to a rival? Of course not, that would not be a sensible thing to say.

 

As for progress: http://djmodels.co.uk/?page_id=422 seems to indicate that they are further advanced than the Class 74s, which nobody if suggesting get handed over.

 

I have decided that for many on this forum, patience was in short supply the day they were taken out the tooling and packed in their red / blue / whatever coloured box.

 

Roy

Well Roy

When a new model is announced it is sensible to expect some idea of the time frame and now after many months there is no indication of progress.  Comparing railway modelling with the auto industry is rather strange especially when you consider that timing of new car models is carefully controlled and rather quite precise.  Having worked in the auto industry for  quite a few years time to market is an almost god like discipline.

Norman 

[kandc_au]

Unfortunately Norman, you are comparing chalk and cheese!

On the whole the motor industry has a VERY vested interest in having the vehicle produced at a set time. AND they do an awful lot themselves or use dedicated suppliers.

In the model railway industry you are at the beck and call of the producers in China.

Even Hornby has issues and they are supposedly one of the biggest in model railways....but there again if they are going the way of limited runs that will go against them in the longer term as it is time and money to have machines not producing when they are changing dies.

 

Khris

[Roy Langridge]

Well Roy

When a new model is announced it is sensible to expect some idea of the time frame and now after many months there is no indication of progress.  Comparing railway modelling with the auto industry is rather strange especially when you consider that timing of new car models is carefully controlled and rather quite precise.  Having worked in the auto industry for  quite a few years time to market is an almost god like discipline.

Norman 

 

I give up, is the simple concept that Dave has intellectual property, in which he has invested time and money, that nobody should be asking him to just give up lost on so many people? The car example was just that, an example, in another industry and I am sorry, Ford do show prototypes at the likes of the motor shows that take many years to come to fruition. Do they release progress reports? Do they heck.

 

I feel very sorry for Dave having to cope with some people's expectations and their lack of understanding of business.

 

Roy

Edited December 14, 2016 by Roy Langridge

[Les1952]

Just a thought - with a similar gestation period, do I hear suggestions that Bachmann give up on the Farish J72?

 

Or, for that matter, was't the Farish Ivatt 2MT the subject of a gestation period of getting on for six years?  Nobody suggested that they give that one up to someone else.....

 

Les

[PhilH]

For some reason when trawling through certain posts on threads like this I'm reminded of a line in a song by Queen...

 

'I want it all, I want it all, I want it all and I want it now'

 

Wonder why?

[norman]

Unfortunately Norman, you are comparing chalk and cheese!

On the whole the motor industry has a VERY vested interest in having the vehicle produced at a set time. AND they do an awful lot themselves or use dedicated suppliers.

In the model railway industry you are at the beck and call of the producers in China.

Even Hornby has issues and they are supposedly one of the biggest in model railways....but there again if they are going the way of limited runs that will go against them in the longer term as it is time and money to have machines not producing when they are changing dies.

 

Khris

I think my comments are being misunderstood and all I have asked is has there been any progress and what is the expected date for release.  I think that's entirely reasonable and can't understand why Dave would not want to keep potential customers informed.

Norman

[Roy Langridge]

I think my comments are being misunderstood and all I have asked is has there been any progress and what is the expected date for release.  I think that's entirely reasonable and can't understand why Dave would not want to keep potential customers informed.

Norman

 

Sorry but no that is not all that you said. You seem to have carefully forgotten the "Maybe one of the new boys on the block would wish to take these over or even perhaps Heljan or Bachmann?" part which has got people backs up as it is uncalled for, unnecessary and unreasonable.

 

Roy

[Mod4]

Please can we refrain from post that can be perceived as being personal it really does mess up my diodes...

[Horsetan]

For some reason when trawling through certain posts on threads like this I'm reminded of a line in a song by Queen...

 

'I want it all, I want it all, I want it all and I want it now'

 

Wonder why?

It's been like this ever since British RTR went to China. Mind you, the industry has stoked it with all the hype over "announcements", CAD scans, teaser photos and "pre-order" facilities. It's all very reminiscent of the 1980s Beaujolais Run, when people competed in fast cars to bring in the first bottle of the new vintage each year.

 

It's interesting - and logical - that the Queen song runs through your head. Conversely, each time an "announcement" is made, I get the following earworm:

 

Edited December 14, 2016 by Horsetan

[south_tyne]

Just a thought - with a similar gestation period, do I hear suggestions that Bachmann give up on the Farish J72?

 

Or, for that matter, was't the Farish Ivatt 2MT the subject of a gestation period of getting on for six years? Nobody suggested that they give that one up to someone else.....

 

Les

Whilst I agree Les and I am fully suportive of Dave and his hard work, it is probably useful to have a broad indication of timescales. To me it wouldn't matter if it was 1 year or 3 until the 7mm scale stuff comes on stream (I'm patient!!) but it might give others some comfort. It could help with budget planning etc.

 

As I say, the timescales don't really concern me but very broad indications of a year for releas (whether 2018 or 2028!!!) might placate some people.

 

I'm fully behind Dave and everything he is doing and will support him all the way, particularly through this difficult patch. His honesty, customer service and approach to his business can only be commended.

 

Ultimately it's his livelihood but our toy trains!!

Edited December 14, 2016 by south_tyne

[Dungrange]

I think that it is reasonable as a potential purchaser to have a desire for knowing a potential release date.  However, against that if Dave were to say on here that model X will be ready in early 2018, I'm sure that there would be many on this forum claiming on 1st January 2018 that they were 'promised' the model now - where is it?

 

Ultimately there are many business reasons why a model release date may be unknown.  In Dave's case, as a small supplier, he will have to carefully manage cash flow whereby the profits from the first model are reinvested in the tooling for the second model and research and development of the third model.  In turn the profits from that second model will fund further tooling and so on.  As such, giving a release date for a tenth model would need Dave to estimate how quickly all earlier models are going to sell out and also final R&D, CAD and tooling costs for each model.  How long will each of the models already announced take to sell out?  I doubt that Dave knows the answer to that one.  He hopes relatively quickly, but can't be sure.  Then there will be delays in arranging production slots in the Chinese factories.  I doubt that Dave will want to commit to a particular production slot without knowing that he has the cash flow to pay for the next batch of models.

 

Therefore, whilst its probably fair to expect a manufacturer to be able to confirm a potential release date when the tooling is complete and a first Engineering Prototype produced, until then, I think buyers just have to accept that it's not likely to hit the shops in 2017 and they will just have to wait.  If you know where a model is in 'the queue' then you can make your own judgement as to how many months / years before a model is released.  I think that Dave has indicated on here previously what he sees as an order of priority, which was generally 00 models, followed by N models followed by 0 models.

[south_tyne]

I think that it is reasonable as a potential purchaser to have a desire for knowing a potential release date. However, against that if Dave were to say on here that model X will be ready in early 2018, I'm sure that there would be many on this forum claiming on 1st January 2018 that they were 'promised' the model now - where is it?

 

Ultimately there are many business reasons why a model release date may be unknown. In Dave's case, as a small supplier, he will have to carefully manage cash flow whereby the profits from the first model are reinvested in the tooling for the second model and research and development of the third model. In turn the profits from that second model will fund further tooling and so on. As such, giving a release date for a tenth model would need Dave to estimate how quickly all earlier models are going to sell out and also final R&D, CAD and tooling costs for each model. How long will each of the models already announced take to sell out? I doubt that Dave knows the answer to that one. He hopes relatively quickly, but can't be sure. Then there will be delays in arranging production slots in the Chinese factories. I doubt that Dave will want to commit to a particular production slot without knowing that he has the cash flow to pay for the next batch of models.

 

Therefore, whilst its probably fair to expect a manufacturer to be able to confirm a potential release date when the tooling is complete and a first Engineering Prototype produced, until then, I think buyers just have to accept that it's not likely to hit the shops in 2017 and they will just have to wait. If you know where a model is in 'the queue' then you can make your own judgement as to how many months / years before a model is released. I think that Dave has indicated on here previously what he sees as an order of priority, which was generally 00 models, followed by N models followed by 0 models.

I completely agree with that, I was just trying to offer some constructive thoughts to mitigateany flak. However as I said, it is Dave's livelihood, just out toys.

[Ryde-on-time]

The Implication is that not much progress has been made on them, despite previous assurances.

 

To me, Dave has always been very clear about the progress on his various projects. You keep repeating the same sentence which is pretty  meaningless. Perhaps you could link directly to where you feel Dave has lied or exaggerated about progress on his models ?

[Roy Langridge]

The Implication is that not much progress has been made on them, despite previous assurances.

 

 

That is the thrid time you have said that. I give up.

 

Roy

[Porcy Mane]

The Implication is that not much progress has been made on them, despite previous assurances.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Porcy Mane

[Budgie]

Is there some sort of bozo bin that one can put people into so one doesn't see their posts?

 

Edit.

Ignore that; I've found it. It's in Edit Profile -> My Settings -> "Ignore" preferences.

 

I have put Doddy into my list of ignored members, because there is obviously no point in reading his messages if they are all going to be the same.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Budgie

[Clearwater]

Given all the work done by DJ on at least the J94, why would he want to just give them up?

Roy

Whilst I agree it's Dave's Intellectual Property and he shouldn't give them up, the option is open to him to sell the design to date to another party if they can make him an offer that is sufficiently financially attractive. Whilst Dave has a business plan of recycling cash flow from one project to the next, if I were him, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of selling developed models to others. That may help bridge another cash flow gap and advance another project.

 

To be clear, I'm not suggesting Dave either should, or indeed wants, it is a route potentially open to him and is emphatically not "giving up" his designs, of course, he may value those designs at a higher price than another production company is prepared to pay...

 

David

[grahame]

That is the thrid time you have said that. I give up.

 

 

The rapping craze had a penchant for thrice repeated phrases . . . . that didn't catch on either.

 

G.

[south_tyne]

Some of the recent posts make me laugh, others sadly make me dispair. Ultimately everyone wants the same thing, that is a high quality product. I for one have absolutely no doubt that this is what Dave will deliver in time. The projects he has already brought to the market show he has exacting standards and that every item will be worth the wait.

 

Support for Dave is the best approach. The "I want it now" attitude that is increasingly apparent in our hobby is so frustrating... I am absolutely certain Dave will prove the doubters wrong.

[PaulCheffus]

Some of the recent posts make me laugh, others sadly make me dispair. Ultimately everyone wants the same thing, that is a high quality product. I for one have absolutely no doubt that this is what Dave will deliver in time. The projects he has already brought to the market show he has exacting standards and that every item will be worth the wait.

 

Support for Dave is the best approach. The "I want it now" attitude that is increasingly apparent in our hobby is so frustrating... I am absolutely certain Dave will prove the doubters wrong.

 

Hi

 

Not just this hobby.

 

I am a member of a car forum and people on there are complaining about the 12 or more week wait for their cars. They've obviously never had to wait for a Bachmann/Hornby/DJM/etc product. :-)

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[south_tyne]

Hi

 

Not just this hobby.

 

I am a member of a car forum and people on there are complaining about the 12 or more week wait for their cars. They've obviously never had to wait for a Bachmann/Hornby/DJM/etc product. :-)

 

Cheers

 

Paul

 

Welcome to the 21st Century I suppose... instant gratification or else