N Gauge Class 390 Pendolino (post Kickstarter) with Rapido

[ruggedpeak]

On a totally separate point have I missed a ban on modeling vehicles which have been involved in a fatal accident. I have had a Farish City of Glasgow and a Hornby Spitfire which where the main causes of the Harrow and Lewisham crashes. Or is it to avoid potential legal claims?

Or may be just common decency given this fatal incident occured as recently as 2007? UPDATE - Ben has answered as I was typing. I'm with Ben. The relatives of the deceased may still be coming to terms with it, unlike those incidents which were a very long time ago. And renumbering isn't difficult for those who need to have that train for whatever reason.

 

As far as I am aware it's the first time anyone has offered customers the chance to democratically choose the models that are produced, and none of us really know what to expect.  If I am honest I am surprised that the majority of the posts today have seemed a little negative - I find myself wondering whether people prefer, in reality, the benevolent dictatorship which chooses models and offers them as a fait accompli!

 

I'm afraid offering too much choice will be received negatively. That's life, a lesson I learnt when I had my own business and tried to be helpful/offer choice. It bites you on the backside. Business needs to be a benevolent dictatorship or it quickly gets out of control. Democracy and business are not easy bedfellows. Steve Jobs didn't become massively successful by letting his customers have a vote, he gave them what he wanted, and charged extra for often inferior kit that looked shiny! (not suggesting this is a model to follow)

 

Offering choice after the fact gets the "If I'd known I wouldn't have....." statements as above. This is despite the fact that some of those making them hadn't actually thought about it or raised it until you offered them the choice. Had you just sent a randomly numbered Pendolino they'd have been as happy as larry.....

Edited April 30, 2015 by ruggedpeak

[jjb1970]

I'd avoid the Grayrigg Pendolino. There is no law against it, but there are plenty of other examples to model without that baggage I think.

[Revolution Mike]

Given that this is the first time people have had to stump up money for a mainstream RTR model before knowing which units are to modeled then yes you may get some negative responces when some arbitary restrictions are in place. I would not have gone for the second (nine car) unit if I had known that I would be limited to only those which have not been lengthend. A simple answer is that all permutations of number/length/name should be on the voting list. If you don't want to do the same model as both a 9 and 11 car set then the highest voting version is considered. If you get the same four units topping both lists then you may have to reconsider

 

Hi Bomag

 

As Ben said, the alternative would have been that Ben and I just picked the units rather than let purchasers have a say. We accept that whatever mechanism is picked there will always be someone disappointed as we are not producing every single name and number - let's face it even giving people a choice will stay leave people voting for sets not produced.

 

The decision was far from arbritary - it was an attempt to come up with something practical.  Going for every permutation is not practical! Include all the 8-car units, 9-car and 11-car plus variations of name and you soon end up with a very long voting list. As my maths teacher told me, I'm not great at permutations and combinations but I can think of at least 34 x 8-car sets, 53 x 9-car sets (all the 8-car sets were upgraded to 9), 4 x 11-car sets which were only ever 11-car sets and a further 31 x 11-car sets (upgraded from 9-car sets), then at least 10 alternative names - so already 132 possibilities and that is before any vinyls etc.

 

Cheers, Mike

[Jim Martin]

I think it's a touch dramatic to be talking about negativity based on a tiny handful of posts. As I said, the "rules", for want of a better term, are a bit of a disappointment for me because I can't vote for either of my favourite names (Liverpool and Birmingham being well out ahead of Manchester, in truth); and probably for some other people with 9-car sets for the same reason, but I dare say I'll get over it. In fact, I already have: I've decided which one to vote for and I'll do it in the next few days.

 

Besides, like another event which I gather is taking place next month, the possible permutations of votes are fiendishly complex and might be beyond prediction. Maybe the "9-car conservatives" will coalesce around the three "City" options available to them (Wolverhampton, Lichfield and Bangor) while the "Virgin tendency" vote is spread across their 13 choices. Maybe we'll end up with all three cities and "101 Squadron"; who knows?

 

Jim

[Revolution Mike]

I quite fancy 101 Squadron myself! Blenheims, Wellingtons, Lancasters, Canberras and Vulcans - a fine set of aircraft befitting a bomber squadron (now a tanker squadron).

 

Cheers, Mike

[Only-Me]

Where's the voting page gone? It was there earlier i was aiming to cast "Mission Accomplished" at Midnight after all how long has this idea been about

[Bomag]

Hi Bomag

 

As Ben said, the alternative would have been that Ben and I just picked the units rather than let purchasers have a say. We accept that whatever mechanism is picked there will always be someone disappointed as we are not producing every single name and number - let's face it even giving people a choice will stay leave people voting for sets not produced.

 

The decision was far from arbritary - it was an attempt to come up with something practical.  Going for every permutation is not practical! Include all the 8-car units, 9-car and 11-car plus variations of name and you soon end up with a very long voting list. As my maths teacher told me, I'm not great at permutations and combinations but I can think of at least 34 x 8-car sets, 53 x 9-car sets (all the 8-car sets were upgraded to 9), 4 x 11-car sets which were only ever 11-car sets and a further 31 x 11-car sets (upgraded from 9-car sets), then at least 10 alternative names - so already 132 possibilities and that is before any vinyls etc.

 

Cheers, Mike

 

It proably would have been better to say which units were being made as it would have been a clear choice - if there was not a version I liked I need not have paid for a model. You have missed the point is that limiting choices to only the units in thier current condition is an arbitary descision which should have been indicated at the time you were asking for preorders.

 

Also your maths needs revising - on the assupmtion that apart from 103 there will be no special liveries the only diiference are the set number and name. Therefore driving cars for a set numberd 390005 will be the same for both 8 and 9 car versions. Taking out the the seven exluded for livery, 033 and 003 we are left with 46 3900xx and 31 3901xx options on set number. Although there are online voting systems that can handle this just, the issue can be simpliy resolved by including a three or four 9 car options which are now 11 car or re-named - if they don't get votes then at least people were given the choice.

[Revolution Ben]

Hello Bomag,

 

If you're at all disappointed then I am really sorry - we want this process to be a positive one for all our supporters.

 

But as I explained above, this decision was not arbirtrary - it was taken for practical reasons of seeking to minimise possibilities for confusion further down the line and only when we looked at the actual practicalities of the process - which was well after we asked people to support us! I can assure you we did not have the minutiae of these aspects of this planned out last December!

 

Also, it was always made clear that there would be 10 different numbersets, and that these would be chosen democratically by our supporters, but none (except for the Poppy Pendolino) was ever specified. Even now none of us knows which numbers will actually be produced.

 

So as I understand it, what you are saying is that you are disappointed you aren't getting the chance to vote for everything, even though you have always been prepared to go with whatever models are selected?

 

However, this is a learning process for me and if it's the case that people would rather know up front which models are being produced, instead of being given a choice further down the line, then we will do that with future projects.

 

Incidentally, while we could not afford the licencing for any of the film related liveries, on offer we do have the Alstom and Business "specials." Of course, that's not to say they will be produced - just that they can be voted for.

 

The full line up is:

 

Standard livery for most of the units on offer:

 

 

390103 Poppy Pendolino with donation to Royal British Legion:

 

 

390104 to celebrate Virgin partnership with Alstom the Pendolino's manufacturers:

 

 

390151 recently branded with "Business is Great Britain" vinyls featuring union flag on each power car along with lettering below the windows:

 

 

Please note these drawings are purely illustrative and are not the actual livery artwork.

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

Edited May 1, 2015 by Ben A

[roundhouse]

Ben

 

I am sure that whilst some will not be happy I am sure that many will be. I will certainly be happy with any livery but I will no doubt go for a standard liveried one and happy with any number. If enough people want to renumber a set then I am sure that the small decal producers will happily do a decal sheet but accepted that not every one is happy doing their own renumbering.

[bmthtrains - David]

Ben, welcome to the world of customer service - which basically means facing a barrage of unrealistic expectations. You'll only generally hear the negatives about anything, so you just have to quietly absorb the grumbles, and remember the silent majority is perfectly happy or couldn't care less...

 

David

[alibuchan]

It's the same as happens with Dapol the few unhappy ones shout loudest and the ones that are happy don't say anything!

 

I will be voting for the 2 numbers that I want (both standard livery) but I don't really care if they don't come through at the top, I'm just happy I'm getting a pendo!

 

Keep up the good work there are way more happy people than not!

 

Alistair

[Stu from EGDL]

Hi Gang;

 

Voted for my chosen sets, 390103, 390104 (nice Alsthom livery) and 390130.

 

Later;

Stu from EGDL

[ruggedpeak]

Voted.

 

Nice bit of interactivity.

[acko22]

While there are people upset about the choices, I think they should remember a simple fact.....

 

YOU ARE GETTING A SAY!!! At the bare minimum that's a good thing you may not get the exact set you want may that be the City of Manchester in 11 Car or a 9 Car Virgin Pioneer, but at least WE are as a community getting a say!!!

Plus you will still get a Pendolino that's the main thing, Ben and Mike have put the effort in for us to get a model which WE have wanted and other manufactures weren't willing to produce for us!!

Edited May 1, 2015 by acko22

[Stu from EGDL]

While there are people upset about the choices, I think they should remember a simple fact.....

 

YOU ARE GETTING A SAY!!! At the bare minimum that's a good thing you may not get the exact set you want may that be the City of Manchester in 11 Car or a 9 Car Virgin Pioneer, but at least WE are as a community getting a say!!!

Plus you will still get a Pendolino that's the main thing, Ben and Mike have put the effort in for us to get a model which WE have wanted and other manufactures weren't willing to produce for us!!

Well said Acko!!!

 

Stu from EGDL.

[ruggedpeak]

It's that bl88dy Russell Brand again, telling people not to vote!

 

 

Of course his latest book is called "Revolution", spooky or what!

[Revolution Mike]

Hello folks

 

We've had over 100 votes today so I will put the live results on the website tomorrow.  There is a lot more of a spread in voting than I expected.

 

Early front runners: Virgin Pioneer, Alstom Pendolino and 101 Squadron followed by Virgin Ambassador (Business is Great livery).

 

Cheers, Mike

[Bomag]

Hello Bomag,

 

If you're at all disappointed then I am really sorry - we want this process to be a positive one for all our supporters.

 

But as I explained above, this decision was not arbirtrary - it was taken for practical reasons of seeking to minimise possibilities for confusion further down the line and only when we looked at the actual practicalities of the process - which was well after we asked people to support us! I can assure you we did not have the minutiae of these aspects of this planned out last December!

 

Also, it was always made clear that there would be 10 different numbersets, and that these would be chosen democratically by our supporters, but none (except for the Poppy Pendolino) was ever specified. Even now none of us knows which numbers will actually be produced.

 

So as I understand it, what you are saying is that you are disappointed you aren't getting the chance to vote for everything, even though you have always been prepared to go with whatever models are selected?

 

However, this is a learning process for me and if it's the case that people would rather know up front which models are being produced, instead of being given a choice further down the line, then we will do that with future projects.

 

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

 

You may be identifying a different meaning of arbitrary than I am.  Nothing in your factors you have listed should exclude offering a 9 car 390010 named the commonwealth games 2002, 390045 Virgin Valiant etc as one of your options.  When I ordered a 9 car set I assumed that that I the odds were 10/51 for any single unit to be chosen and since I would be happy with about 60% of the name options for a 9 car set and OK with half the rest the chances of only having a choice of something I didn't particularly want is less than 10%. Given you are only doing current options and a 60/40 split I have an 85.7% of being lumbered with something I don't want. Being an engineer I did bother to estimate the risks on name number - on what was said at the point of ordering a 10% risk was acceptable.  Consider this, if this was a model of an A4 would you think it odd if the only options were the final livery and final names? (and of course not having 4469 as an option)

Edited May 2, 2015 by Bomag

[Bomag]

YOU ARE GETTING A SAY!!! At the bare minimum that's a good thing ...

 

I am with Churchill on the position of democracy as being overrated (with tongue firmly in his cheek). I would have preferred a set list of options given the relocation of the scoring area ( aka goalposts). Anybody want to swap a 9 car order for an 11 car (with appropriate additional wodge)? 

[acko22]

Bomag,

 

If you wanted to have every single number and name to choose from the selection process would be impossible.

Ben and Mike have taken the most financially viable solution.

You say the is a 85.7% chance of you getting lumbered with something you don't want????

Your getting a Pendolino!!! If the name / number are the be all and end all of your selection then not been funny but you must be upset very often by anyone who produces RTR models.

While like everyone I would love to see certain names make the cut, some may most wont but the fact we at least got some input it's a rare and positive approach.

No matter what names and numbers make the cut I am sure that 99 out of 100 people will be more than happy what ever the number they have.

 

Sadly you seem to be the odd 1 who wont be happy unless you get exactly what you want. Which you wont get from any RTR maker, if you really have to have that very specific name / number the resources and people are out there to get that as long as you are willing to pay the extra

[Multiple identity account]

Bomag please remember that whatever you say isn't gold......So far it's literally only you who feels upset with this. No one else has a problem so please learn to accept it. I think what Revolution has done is actually the better option.
 

You don't like don't go on about it. It's a place to discuss. I don't think your are good at discussing. I think getting an N gauge Pendolino wasn't enough for you (you're the hard to please kind)



Ben and Mike..You'll didn't tell me about your latest "N gauge complain box" Was the project crowd funded?

Edited May 2, 2015 by JBM

[ruggedpeak]

You may be identifying a different meaning of arbitrary than I am.  Nothing in your factors you have listed should exclude offering a 9 car 390010 named the commonwealth games 2002, 390045 Virgin Valiant etc as one of your options.  When I ordered a 9 car set I assumed that that I the odds were 10/51 for any single unit to be chosen and since I would be happy with about 60% of the name options for a 9 car set and OK with half the rest the chances of only having a choice of something I didn't particularly want is less than 10%. Given you are only doing current options and a 60/40 split I have an 85.7% of being lumbered with something I don't want. Being an engineer I did bother to estimate the risks on name number - on what was said at the point of ordering a 10% risk was acceptable.  Consider this, if this was a model of an A4 would you think it odd if the only options were the final livery and final names? (and of course not having 4469 as an option)

 

So as an engineer you arbitrarily decide on a different meaning of a word but don't define it. You then make a large and pretty fundamental assumption, waltz off into some alleged 'risk' calculations that are not entirely clear, before coming to the conclusion that you are almost certainly going to be unhappy.

 

Given that you only have a 14.3% chance of being happy, ask Revolution to transfer your 9 car order to me (I assume it's just one and at the Kickstarter pricing) and refund you, and I'll pay the deposit so that none of us have to suffer any longer. If its DCC version then hopefully Revolution can alter the order to DC.

 

Or just be pleased that we are getting N gauge Pendo's with a manufacturer who is willing to be innovative and look at new ways of pleasing their customers by offering additional choice.

[Jim Martin]

Well, I just voted for 390011 City of Lichfield

[woodenhead]

Cripes!!

 

I can barely focus on my iPad today, I can never read what numbers are on my N gauge locomotives unless I get very close.

 

Surely livery and the model itself is more important than the number, plus if the number you do want is only available in 11 cars then sell the spares, there will be people out there who will be also be buying 9 cars with a particular number but wanted an 11 car really.

 

At least there is a Pendolino to buy, 8 months ago there wasn't that option.

[Revolution Mike]

I've added the "live" results chart - apologies that it a. takes up so much space (I can't find a way to remove some of the whitespace it creates) and b. that the numbers / names are so small on the x-axis, you can the details of each number by hovering over the bar on the chart.

 

Cheers, Mike