lochlongside Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Oh dear the 2015 speculation - Ironic isn't - the week that Hornby find a significant chunk of their future wish list (also known as the 2015 production plan) has been duplicated and that they are only losing half the money they did last year their share price rises significantly - there must be a takeover in the offing (someone's got to start the rumour) - it cannot be sales as my 2013 orders are being cancelled left right and centre - and not by me !! Perhaps someone with a track record will take them over and bring my existing personal Hornby order list (not wishlist !!) for 2013/4 into the realms of reality before I am too old to pay off the credit card. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FNM600 Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Given that today Hornby's range is truly international, isn't time to have a coherent scale which everybody knows it is 1.87 or 3.5mm/ft. Incidentally it was invented in UK as half O ie. half of 7mm or 1.43 ! Can't you learn from one of your costituents (Rivarossi for Italian outline at 1:80) on how to reform to the correct scale? Worldwide sales would benefit to the benefit of cash flow and long term profits too! There are overseas people interested in British models too if it weren't for the scale. Wouldn't this compensate for the conservatism of the British modellers and initial poor HO sales in UK ? Frankly I have been bitten the hard way back in the 70 when living in UK when I purchased coarse overscale Triang examples. (promtly resold off). Then at the time I bought the Trix (your small competitors at the time) Mk1 3.8mm coaches which happened to be compatible with overscale Rivarossi stock and were better built than the Triang ones. Otherwise the odd Hornby tinplate to go with the bakelite RR Le626/R (example in your museum in Margate) which was rather overscale like your old contemporary hardware! It is decades since it has been possible to fit motors in 1:87 British outline models. Back in the 70s Fleischmann did it with a STD German mechanism on their British Waship or V200/220 ! Think about your tiny art. HR2080 and HR2072! The little shunter! So your company can shrink to HO! Now with the centenary of the Great War it will be fashionable to model such wartime transportation with all the British trains ferried across the Channel working alongside Continental trains. Young generation like don't know but photos about this fashinate! Think of all the ROD stock! Then in the WWII all the WDs and the little photographed (wartime problems) LNER and LMS coaches (relatively unscathed from air raids in Scotland to replace locally damaged stock) to repatriate the war veterans from liberated Europe. Yes! even hauled by your Hornby FS E432... (art. HR2242) towards the Alps but they look daft together due to scale mismatch. NEM362 pockets at least facilitate couplings conversions if fitted. For more recent times read the posts on rmweb to about the problems in recreating a lot of crosschannel trains and so on! Otherwise one has to resort second hand Como made RR of the old 1:80 but it is still not very coherent in scale! Tooling is expensive but try on popular wise choices to maximize returns. Why don't you start selling your HR 2475 repained in SR and BR colours for example! Then try well known models such as the Flying Scotsman, Deltic, Austerity class, Robinson's ROD. With the Deltic's bogies you can have class 37 and 50 plus the Portuguese EE exports. Try the BR class 83 useful for Polish EU06 too, a major class there! I understand Vitrains is having a go at the channel class 92 (dilemma on scale: HO, OO or both!) After all if you can model weird little known local engines such as the E.326 and the 3phase E431 (the Italian equivalent of class 76 or 35) you can risk on better known classes. Being big firm you could try both scales for both markets, GB and overseas... but in the... long term wean British modellers to HO. After all they are all made in China which is HO (see your competitors Bachmann!) unlike Vitrains ! Surely not all British modellers are Eurosceptic! Mk1 coaches are well known abroad thanks to Harry Potter's train, but suitable for the Deltic and Flying Scotsman too. Many types, but built like Meccano with STD components as we know! Also for the 4-CEP and 4-BEP and MLV which were probably ther only British train used by tourist before cheap airlines. So are std framed 10ft framed wagons. So with wagon with Y25 bogies and UIC suspensions for more recent times. Also what about popular models for youngsters to wean them on HO and away from grandad's OO!? Here some links: http://www.british-ho.com/ http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/LBHO-Home.htm with honest comments on the range and pit falls. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/british-ho/files/BAOR%20trains/about LNER and LMS trains on the continent. (BAOR) Not a joke! Regards Rivarossi's 1:80. It got challenged for good by the very well made 1:87 E.626 filling a serious gap in their FS range (yes HR2494!?) made by Roco. If only Rivarossi and Fleischmann in the 70s chose a better known originals in more popular eras plus better sales network! They decided to keep standard and go for other markets unlike Lima looking only for easy £££ at all costs. On the positive side: your ex-Triang International series 6 track is now de-facto the European standard SetTrack for Europe replacing a multitude of strange incompatible geometries! It is now the Rivarossi, Lima, ecc. track in EU spirit! Strange for me grown up starting on a Lima set from father Christmas and then being a "Rivarossista" broght up on RD20 RC80 ecc. but I do welcome the series 6 track as a positive development. Lets see this on the rolling stock side too! Sorry for long letter. but I hope it is clear in contents. Thank for your attention, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2014 Given that today Hornby's range is truly international, isn't time to have a coherent scale which everybody knows it is 1.87 or 3.5mm/ft. Incidentally it was invented in UK as half O ie. half of 7mm or 1.43 ! Can't you learn from one of your costituents (Rivarossi for Italian outline at 1:80) on how to reform to the correct scale? Worldwide sales would benefit to the benefit of cash flow and long term profits too! There are overseas people interested in British models too if it weren't for the scale. Wouldn't this compensate for the conservatism of the British modellers and initial poor HO sales in UK ? Frankly I have been bitten the hard way back in the 70 when living in UK when I purchased coarse overscale Triang examples. (promtly resold off). Then at the time I bought the Trix (your small competitors at the time) Mk1 3.8mm coaches which happened to be compatible with overscale Rivarossi stock and were better built than the Triang ones. Otherwise the odd Hornby tinplate to go with the bakelite RR Le626/R (example in your museum in Margate) which was rather overscale like your old contemporary hardware! It is decades since it has been possible to fit motors in 1:87 British outline models. Back in the 70s Fleischmann did it with a STD German mechanism on their British Waship or V200/220 ! Think about your tiny art. HR2080 and HR2072! The little shunter! So your company can shrink to HO! Now with the centenary of the Great War it will be fashionable to model such wartime transportation with all the British trains ferried across the Channel working alongside Continental trains. Young generation like don't know but photos about this fashinate! Think of all the ROD stock! Then in the WWII all the WDs and the little photographed (wartime problems) LNER and LMS coaches (relatively unscathed from air raids in Scotland to replace locally damaged stock) to repatriate the war veterans from liberated Europe. Yes! even hauled by your Hornby FS E432... (art. HR2242) towards the Alps but they look daft together due to scale mismatch. NEM362 pockets at least facilitate couplings conversions if fitted. For more recent times read the posts on rmweb to about the problems in recreating a lot of crosschannel trains and so on! Otherwise one has to resort second hand Como made RR of the old 1:80 but it is still not very coherent in scale! Tooling is expensive but try on popular wise choices to maximize returns. Why don't you start selling your HR 2475 repained in SR and BR colours for example! Then try well known models such as the Flying Scotsman, Deltic, Austerity class, Robinson's ROD. With the Deltic's bogies you can have class 37 and 50 plus the Portuguese EE exports. Try the BR class 83 useful for Polish EU06 too, a major class there! I understand Vitrains is having a go at the channel class 92 (dilemma on scale: HO, OO or both!) After all if you can model weird little known local engines such as the E.326 and the 3phase E431 (the Italian equivalent of class 76 or 35) you can risk on better known classes. Being big firm you could try both scales for both markets, GB and overseas... but in the... long term wean British modellers to HO. After all they are all made in China which is HO (see your competitors Bachmann!) unlike Vitrains ! Surely not all British modellers are Eurosceptic! Mk1 coaches are well known abroad thanks to Harry Potter's train, but suitable for the Deltic and Flying Scotsman too. Many types, but built like Meccano with STD components as we know! Also for the 4-CEP and 4-BEP and MLV which were probably ther only British train used by tourist before cheap airlines. So are std framed 10ft framed wagons. So with wagon with Y25 bogies and UIC suspensions for more recent times. Also what about popular models for youngsters to wean them on HO and away from grandad's OO!? Here some links: http://www.british-ho.com/ http://www.limabritishho.co.uk/LBHO-Home.htm with honest comments on the range and pit falls. https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/british-ho/files/BAOR%20trains/ about LNER and LMS trains on the continent. Not a joke! Regards Rivarossi's 1:80. It got challenged for good by the very well made 1:87 E.626 filling a serious gap in their FS range (yes HR2494!?) made by Roco. If only Rivarossi and Fleischmann in the 70s chose a better known originals in more popular eras plus better sales network! They decided to keep standard and go for other markets unlike Lima looking only for easy £££ at all costs. On the positive side: your ex-Triang International series 6 track is now de-facto the European standard SetTrack for Europe replacing a multitude of strange incompatible geometries! It is now the Rivarossi, Lima, ecc. track in EU spirit! Strange for me grown up starting on a Lima set from father Christmas and then being a "Rivarossista" broght up on RD20 RC80 ecc. but I do welcome the series 6 track as a positive development. Lets see this on the rolling stock side too! Sorry for long letter. but I hope it is clear in contents. Thank for your attention, So basically you are suggesting that after, what, 60 odd years, hundreds of thousands of products, Hornby should change their scale completely to 1:87 as oppose to 1:76? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2014 The adherence to 1/76 has nothing to do with a little englander or eurosceptic culture (although certainly there are elements of this in society at large) but the simple fact that existing modellers have made a huge investment in 1/76, the existing catalogue of 1/76 items is vast and it'd take decades and suppliers willing to invest immense amounts to get anywhere near the existing catalogue. Certainly a common scale would be much better, but the time to for a switch has passed in my opinion. Up to the late 90's British outline models trailed European and Japanese models (btw, Japan is not HO either yet they seem to be happy enough with their compromise scale) significantly in terms of motors, detail, paint finish and general quality, that is no longer the case. Whereas 20 years ago a company like Roco could have made a British HO model that would have made competing British outline OO look primitive and decidedly third class that is no longer the case. And despite the advantages of a common scale the UK is still an island in more ways than one, again that is not a little englander statement but recognition that despite the Channel Tunnel there is not really that much cross over in terms of modelling between the UK and the rest of Europe in terms of shared running. Obviously there is a big UK interest in overseas trains and modelling but it is almost invariably a parallel interest and not an attempt to make a joint layout. On scale it is not as simple as HO is best either, for some modellers the closeness of OO to the standard 1/72 scale used by plastic kit and figure hobbies and older 1/76 kits and figures opens up huge cross over potential such as for Bachmann's announced narrow gauge models. Clearly OO is visibly compromised in terms of track gauge but personally if the UK hobby was to change then a range of ready made P4 track and models designed for quick conversion to P4 would make more sense than trying to go to 1/87 now. Just my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Downendian Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 Strong hints that Hornby maybe announcing a Q6 next month made in the DJM Q6 thread by Dave Jones http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/88268-oo-gauge-raven-q6-0-8-0-steam-locomotive/?p=1678191 Neil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2014 Oh goody oh yes let it be another double up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Which ones had a different boiler size? The majority of large prairies used the standard number 2 boiler. There was a batch known as the 3150 that carried the larger no 4 (as the mogul) 3150-3190 In addition 3173, 3156, 3181, 3155 and 3179 were rebuilt with 5' 3" wheels and renumbered into a new 31xx class becoming 3100-3104. More were to follow but by 1939 there were other priorities. The original 31xx series had been renumbered 51xx with some new builds to fill in gaps -(told you it was complex) In addition some no 2 boilered 51xx were then rebuilt into 81xx series with smaller 5' 6" wheels. 5100, 5123, 5118, 5145, 5124, 5126, 5120, 5116, 5133, 5115 becoming 8100-8109 again wartime issues preventing any more conversions. Note the original prototype number 99, became 3100, then 5100 then 8100. Four different numbers for one engine! Any potential manufacturer has some serious research to conduct. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2014 I didn't know that there was a physical size difference between boilers. Knew of different pressure and wheel suzes Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 So basically you are suggesting that after, what, 60 odd years, hundreds of thousands of products, Hornby should change their scale completely to 1:87 as oppose to 1:76? Yes, He is. I thought the old myth that we are all desperately longing to buy r-t-r HO models of British prototypes had been given a decent burial by Heljan who, having failed to generate sufficient interest to justify producing a mere 750 Class 37s, made the sensible commercial decision and embraced 1:76 for their UK outline models. Lot of people have lots of models in OO and don't have any inclination to start afresh - those that do usually move up to O Gauge. I'm afraid the idea of British (r-t-r) HO reminds me of the 'local' who, asked for directions to a rather obscure village, replied "Well, if I were goin' there, I wouldn't start from 'ere". In any case, does the discrepancy in scale matter a jot unless one wishes to model a location where the UK and Continental railway systems meet? John Edited to rmove echo in para 3! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2014 It's a ridiculous idea to even think of changing scale now. Only the die hard purists actually get so worked up over the whole scale idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 Yes, He is. I thought the old myth that we are all desperately longing to buy r-t-r HO models of British prototypes had been given a decent burial by Heljan who, having failed to generate sufficient interest to justify producing a mere 750 Class 37s, made the sensible commercial decision and embraced 1:76 for their UK outline models. Lot of people have lots of models in OO and don't have any inclination to start afresh - those that do usually move up to O Gauge. I'm afraid the idea of British (r-t-r) HO reminds me of the 'local' who, asked for directions to a rather obscure village, replied "Well, if I were goin' there, I wouldn't start from 'ere". In any case, does the discrepancy in scale matter a jot unless one wishes to model a location where the UK and Continental railway systems meet? John Mind you, it's just occurred to me that if Hornby (just Hornby) did it commencing with their (alleged) 2015 releases, it might solve a lot of other problems! John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 It's a ridiculous idea to even think of changing scale now. Only the die hard purists actually get so worked up over the whole scale idea. Or people who want to use a large wooden spoon to stir some thing other than the Christmas pudding. The forthcoming J15 pottering round the Hainault Loop prior to D day with a string of H0 US wagons in tow would be a fun variation on a shunting plank. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Well lets all adopt the Euro, scrap all our RHD cars and drive on the right, drink only clear lager and eat sausages and snails and chips with mayo on top. Good idea about a ready made EM or P4 track system, perhaps EM would be better. Manufacturers could make new stock "easy" to convert. I wouldn't bother though, I'm too much into OO and a lot of my stuff is the "crap" from the 60's > 90's. This duplication thing is a worry (not to me). So many often requested locos to go for, yet we have duplication of some small classes of locos announced. Not a good thing in the current & on going financial climate. Our hobby is probably at its Zenith. As to Hornby, get a new man in at the top who understands both running a business AND model railways. Good luck to them. Brit15 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 Oh goody oh yes let it be another double up A 47xx, then...... Seriously, though, if Hornby don't come up with at least one reasonably popular loco, unique to them, for 2015 (even if it means revising their schedule a bit) it will look more than a little ridiculous IMHO. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 26, 2014 I would prefer Hornby did the 47xx anyway, given Heljans track record with the Garratt. I will await the release of their LNER O2 2-8-0 before passing judgement on their 2-8-0 chassis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 The duplications are very frustrating. In an ideal world the manufacturers would get round a table at the beginning of each year and duke it out as to who is to produce what. Like a nationalised 'British Model Railway Corporation'.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 Given that today Hornby's range is truly international, isn't time to have a coherent scale which everybody knows it is 1.87 or 3.5mm/ft. Incidentally it was invented in UK as half O ie. half of 7mm or 1.43 ! No thanks! Can't you learn from one of your costituents (Rivarossi for Italian outline at 1:80) on how to reform to the correct scale? Don't want to, thanks! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 Thank for your attention, You are most welcome! Seriously - this debate has been had on here, more than once, and the overwhelming view is that we in the UK, and our esteemed ex-pat bretheren wish to stay with 4mm scale. I don't doubt the sincerity or logic of your argument as viewed from your own point of view, but it simply won't happen for the UK domestic model railway market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold toboldlygo Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 Here could be the surprise announcement - a set of Rail Enthusiast Figures, featuring Andy Y amongst others... (With all the time Andy Y spends with manufacturers, it makes you wonder if he hasn't been subjected to a 3-D Scan (or two) ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 Given that today Hornby's range is truly international, It isn't. Hornby's portfolio is international, but each brand - Hornby, Jouef, Electrotren etc - has its own scale, according to the principal country in which it is offered. Any move away from 1:76 in the UK would be Hornby's doom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Duplication is a pain. But until the law changes, then this is something we'll need to live with and watch who gets to the finish line with a release first. Shame is ultimately it could hurt the suppliers, and the trade in more than simply a bought loco, but affected livilhoods Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karhedron Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Not that long ago, we were complaining about Bachmann/Farish announcing that they would be producing models and then not releasing them for years (N Gauge Ivatt in particular). If announcing well in advance is considered a land-grab and leaving it later runs the risk of duplication, what other options are left? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted November 26, 2014 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 26, 2014 Like a nationalised 'British Model Railway Corporation'.... Maybe such an organisation could allocate prototypes to the manufacturers using the wish list Top 50 and the procedures of the FA Cup Draw. e.g. Number Three (the air smoothed Merchant Navy) will be produced by (rattle, rattle) the winners of the replay for the Adams Radial. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Like a nationalised 'British Model Railway Corporation'.... Imagine how long the anual wagon would have to be to get all that on the side.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Imagine how long the anual wagon would have to be to get all that on the side.... They'd need the old Triang "Brick" bogie wagon. Do Hornby still carry a version? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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