RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2014 Some nice release announced by Hornby. I just hope that the duplication doesn't end up harming the hobby by resulting in nobody making enough sales out of certain models to make a good return. On the under-current in some threads, who is to know who duplicated who and if a company (any company) has already invested a lot of effort into a project then it can be a fine line between cutting losses or pressing on and hoping their version wins out. A year ago I'd have said that the alternatives would have more chance of being better models, however Hornby have started to recover from their nadir and now I think there is at least a chance Hornby might produce the better model. Of course I have no way of knowing whether they will come up trumps but neither do sceptics have any way of knowing they'll be worse than the competition, we will have to wait and see. Personally, and this is just a personal opinion, I'll probably stick with the generally available models (Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan etc) for the simple reason that I've increasingly gone back to buying models in actual shops and find that mail order isn't the bargain it once was whilst the pleasures of visiting real model shops remains. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cctransuk Posted November 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2014 Personally, and this is just a personal opinion, I'll probably stick with the generally available models (Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan etc) for the simple reason that I've increasingly gone back to buying models in actual shops and find that mail order isn't the bargain it once was whilst the pleasures of visiting real model shops remains. If you read the Hornby Exeter thread, you may wish to ponder whether you will have the option to purchase Hornby's models from 'real model shops' in future. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2014 If Hornby do go direct sales only then I'll cross that bridge when I get to it and probably end up hoping Bachmann, Heljan and others available through regular channels make what I want. I'm not saying I don't buy via mail order, but if a physical shop is competitive then I like to see what I am buying and enjoy shopping. And I really do not like pre-order which is the increasing norm, I do not deny the advantages of the pre-order system, and whether or not it is officially recognised the hobby is pretty much a pre-order one but I like to see what I am buying and do not like committing to buy something that won't appear for months and which I haven't seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spannerman Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 To duplicate one model by a smaller competitor could possibly be seen as a coincidence, but to produce 3 duplicates does seem (to my cynical mind at least) to suggest that Hornby are trying to stamp on the competition. Personally my issue is that Hornby can't seem to deliver on their current product commitments but still want to stifle competition. Nik Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted November 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2014 I'm getting confused. The infamous Adams Radial is coming from Oxford Rail and Hornby. Who else has put their hat in the ring on this one and did no one at any point think to say "no point coming round and measuring it mate, xx has beaten you to it". What a shambles.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammy Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 What's wrong with some healthy competition it's not like this is the first duplicate is it. Hornby, Bachmann, helijan and V-trains have done a class 47. Hornby and Bachmann have done both a 66 and a peppercorn and A4's. Hornby and helijan have done a 58. Bachmann and Hornby have done 08 shunters even wagons and coaches are duplicated. We all seem to moan that so and so do this and wish someone else would. Wait to see what looks the better then buy it we now have 2 big company's and at least half a dozen smaller company's producing and model shops commissioning we have never had it so good bring it on and good luck to them all. Imagine putting this logic into car buying I'm sorry Mr Ford but your Focus is a small family hatchback like a VW Golf you shouldn't be making something the same (in contexts that there both hatch backs) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 22, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 22, 2014 I think there are two issues, the size of the market (how many family hatchbacks are sold in a year) and the fact that the duplication appears to be in niche models. The bread and butter models such as classes 37, 47 will always be sellers and popular as for railways of a certain era they will always be the back bone and most important subjects. Once you get into more niche subjects it is a smaller market with lower volumes. Hence less able to support the sort of duplication that can be done with a class 47 for example. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 So, when do we expect Hornby to go bankrupt, due to the losses from duplicating other manufacturers' products and nobody wanting to buy them? Probably the day after they announce a range of engines for the North East and Scotland... which people do want.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammy Posted November 22, 2014 Share Posted November 22, 2014 Ok probberly a poor example but look at tornado 3 different colours 3 versions of it and by 2 company's we should embrace competition it's better for us modellers more choice it was investable that once the mainstream had been produced the obscure would be duplicated by manufacturers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
159220 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I could be wrong, but I saw a Network Rail Class 31 on display, numbered 31285...which I think is different from the last release 31233... (I didnt ask as anyone from Hornby was surrounded by crowds) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I think we can rule out an AC electric following the announcement of the class 71, Hornby seem to announce 1 diesel and electric model with the rest steam outline. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium gc4946 Posted November 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2014 Dare I say Hornby might bring out the Adams Radial in East Kent Railway and/or War Department liveries ??? From the Bluebell's website: http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/adams_tank.html "This particular loco though had been sold to the military during the first World War, and in 1919 was sold on to the privately run East Kent Railway. In 1946 it was bought by the Southern and overhauled to provide relief for the other two Lyme Regis engines, and the three operated the branch until 1960" Maybe another reason for Hornby being interested in this loco, it had a very varied life, had a Kentish connection, and served in some way with the military during WW1 - all ticking boxes for inclusion in its range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsp3970 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Honestly I was hoping for an early AC electric, not DC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purley Oaks Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Well the Scottish Region is pretty much missing ALL of it's freight engines, never mind the fast ones! Agee with the need for more Midland and start on Scottish prototypes, Plenty to go at.:Midland Johnson 0-4-4T, Deeley 0-4-0T, LNWR Cauliflower, L&Y Aspinal 0-6-0, CR 812 0-6-0 & NBR J36 for starters. All these were in the mid range of the recent wish list. Some great opportunities for pre-grouping liveries as well. For something Scottish, I would have thought the Jones Goods is a no-brainer, especially in its striking pre-grouping Highland Railway yellow ochre livery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr chapman Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Even having the physical prototype of the Hornby radial is no guarantee of production. Remember the Hornby class 17? Or loco drive dean goods? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 With regards to duplication the phrase "This town aint big enough for the both of us" springs to mind given the shrinking model railway market! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 Honestly I was hoping for an early AC electric, not DC. Well, it does have a coathanger on the roof, so you could pretend? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2014 On duplication, it isn't that manufacturers should not be free to produce whatever they want, nor that all duplication is bad. The manufacturers are perfectly free to duplicate, whether this is accidental (which I perhaps naively believe is true in most cases) or whether it is some commercial decision to attack rivals (much less true than generally assumed I think for the simple reason it is a hugely expensive tactic with a poor rate of return). And there are certain models which will easily support duplication and models which manufacturers will see as essential if they want to offer a total range (eg. Mk.1 coaches, some locomotives) and so everybody gains. What worries me is not that I question all duplication and I certainly have no urge to try and regulate the model market with some central committee making decisions on who makes what. However we are now seeing duplication of some rather niche models, I believe one manufacturer can make a nice return on a release, but two? I'll be happy to be proved wrong but my fear is that this is a good example of the old adage that we should be careful of what we wish for. We wil not be the winners if this accelerates some sort of shake out or sucks up the new development funding and burns suppliers to the point it restricts future projects. My concern is what this could do to the hobby but to be clear if manufacturers press on then that is there right and personally I do believe this duplication is more accidental than nefarious. Another concern I have with the way the market is moving is that it almost feels that the market will be full of niche models but there will be no bread and butter models of the trains that will form the bulk of sales. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 If you read the Hornby Exeter thread, you may wish to ponder whether you will have the option to purchase Hornby's models from 'real model shops' in future. Regards, John Isherwood. My take on this is that I would think that Hornby might increasingly separate the Railroad and 'Mainstream' or 'Enthusiast and Collector' versions, pushing the Railroad models through the retailers and withdrawing the Mainstream ones from hobby shops and selling them exclusively through their direct sales website. By doing that they can control the selling price of the far-more-expensive-to-produce and far-shorter-production run Mainstream items, as well as getting a much bigger margin on the latter. This might actually benefit enthusiasts as Hornby would have the incentive to produce more of the latter and in more variety whilst producing simple one-variety Railroad models which they can keep on re-running for years as they did before becoming a 'scale-model' manufacturer at the beginning of this century. Railroad can be a good cash-cow and underpin the better models. Sadly, any sympathy for the poor old traditional model shops will have little effect on what has to be the future of manufacturers in the age of the internet and direct selling. 'Twas ever thus, just look back at how the supermarkets killed of most small shopkeepers - but things continue to evolve, so even the supermarkets are feeling the cold winds of change now: maybe the future for the more laterally-thinking model shops such as Kernow will actually be quite rosy. JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted November 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 23, 2014 My take on this is that I would think that Hornby might increasingly separate the Railroad and 'Mainstream' or 'Enthusiast and Collector' versions, pushing the Railroad models through the retailers and withdrawing Sadly, any sympathy for the poor old traditional model shops will have little effect on what has to be the future of manufacturers in the age of the internet and direct selling. 'Twas ever thus, just look back at how the supermarkets killed of most small shopkeepers - but things continue to evolve, so even the supermarkets are feeling the cold winds of change now: maybe the future for the more laterally-thinking model shops such as Kernow will actually be quite rosy. JE Sadly I think you are correct here. I think the hobby will increasingly move to a direct sales model, I also think it will increasingly move to a pre-order model reducing the freedom of consumers to actually make a decision as to whether the product is any good before making a committment to buy (for many models this has been the case for a while). The sad thing is that over the last year or so I've found that for many releases bricks and mortar shops have actually been remarkably competitive with the big mail order sellers. I saw this with plastic kits, people thought it was great to buy all their kits mail order and then whinged when they realised the local model shop closed and so there was no local source of paints, adhesives, scenic material and all those pocket money purcheses that are so essential to modelling. If we do move to a mail order direct sales model then the market will decide and if that is what the market wants then who am I to complain. And I'll admit to being a complete hypocrite as I do buy a lot mail order still (although oddly not British model trains anymore, but almost all of my books and all of my overseas model trains are bought mail order). One thing I would say is that as the point has been made on the Warely thread, I think we have to be consistent. I'd hate Hornby (or Bachmann, or Heljan, or Dapol etc etc) to restrict sales to their own on-line channel or even to their own retail store concessions and if they do so I'll not be quiet with my opinion. However there does seem to be a lack of consistency in that some are building up Kernow, Hattons etc into becoming the saviours of the hobby by offering models directly (and clearly there are very good commercial reasons for this, they can control retail price whilst also maximising their own cut) but castigating any suggestion that the big suppliers might follow. I do think that if it is good for one and support such policies by some suppliers then we have to accept that others can do the same if they wish. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 If you look at issue of duplication look no further than van manufacturing the basic vehicle with a different badge and a few customisations by the particular. " manufacturer" It appears to work however this is a high volume market with brand loyalty paying it's part too! Now if the model railway manufacturers worked together it would be in their interests as well as the end customer. Currently the less than a year old new models that are now selling at @ 40% + off the RRP at some of the well known larger traders demonstates over supply in some areas as well duplication of the same models! Would a good way forward.be for Bachmann and Hornby to form an alliance or even merge? This would make commercial sense a deliver reduction in staff and premises at a stroke. Surely this is better that letting Hornby battle against the odds with itheir current CEO and would provide continuity of supply with the elimination of duplication? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 For something Scottish, I would have thought the Jones Goods is a no-brainer, especially in its striking pre-grouping Highland Railway yellow ochre livery RTR versions of all the Scottish Four would surely sell well. Pretty, eye catching, pre grouping liveries which could be run on pre 1923 and BR era layouts plus various liveries for everything in between including BR colours for the Glen and the Sodjer. Regarding freight locos a J36 would be the logical place to start then a Caley Jumbo. The venerable NBR C class could be seen everywhere from Mallaig to Carlisle, and Berwick to Elgin. Not forgetting that the last two steam locos in ScR service in 1967 were two J36s - they outlasted all the big four classes as well as the BR standards! A decent brass kit of the J36 is available from PDK for those with the skills to build it, however the J35/Jumbo/812 class are out of production at DJH and if anyone can find a J37 kit for me I'll be their friend for life! Therefore, if you want to start on an authentic ScR layout and wish to feature goods traffic your options are limited to one kit and scratch building; passenger traffic requires more kit building where a D29/30/34 are available, however if you favour the old LMS (CR&HR lines) then a Pickergill 72 class is essential, and that's about as hard to find as the J37 kit. Still, I imagine we'll have to wait many more years before the big three notice that there was a railway system North of Newcastle and Carlisle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I'm getting confused. The infamous Adams Radial is coming from Oxford Rail and Hornby. Who else has put their hat in the ring on this one and did no one at any point think to say "no point coming round and measuring it mate, xx has beaten you to it". What a shambles.... Kernow were dropping red herrings for a few weeks saying they are doing a new Steam item and showing pictures of Radials. If there is a link between the Sream car and Radial, I do not see it. I think it's a safe bet that any plans Kernow had to make their own have been shelved but they also stock Oxford Diecast (and I have brought many of their military items), so maybe an exclusive Radial livery for them is possible.... We will see. The other rumoured player was Austrains (small Australian manufacturer) but rumours seem to sway between this and some Midland prototype. I suspect common sense will quickly see those plans for a radial dropped. As for Loco owners, they might have signed a confidentiality agreement. Or maybe many locos are measured by Manufacturers, as potential projects. I think Bachmann also measured the Radial and others while visiting Bluebell but that does not mean they will do one. Will need to think carefully about this, I will certainly buy at least one radial from each manufacturer, but who will get an order for the 3rd? And will either have a dedicated place to fit sound? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
talisman56 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 If the Hornby Radial sees the light of day then there's a chance that they may have Arnold do an 'N' gauge version... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottrains29 Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 For something Scottish, I would have thought the Jones Goods is a no-brainer, especially in its striking pre-grouping Highland Railway yellow ochre livery They should measure up the one at the riverside museum next time they're at model rail Scotland. The museum is within walking distance on the show. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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