Hornby's Warley Announcements.

[phil gollin]

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Duplication

 

What is most depressing about the duplication of the Adams Radial is that it has been popular for years (if not decades - ref. Triang-Wrenn) and near the top of the polls in recent years,  ANYONE could have done one, but they just waited too long.

 

Looking at recent polls I can see that a similar situation will come about next year with (at least) the BR Standard Class 2MT 2-6-0 and S-15    -   when that happens will there be much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth, or will people just say "we told you so" ?

 

So whilst I hate duplication for having manufacturers miss out on profits due to sales being spread over more than one, I welcome it as a means of manufacturers actually doing what modellers want.

 

 

Manufacturers' on-line sales

 

Here I really am loathe to support the manufacturers.  They may well sell their major items on-line, locomotives, coaches and trucks, but items such as track and scenic items won't be attractive due to postage costs and the fact that they are more suited to a personal browsing experience.   IF the manufacturers kill off the local model shop then their overall sales will suffer and the few newcomers that we do have coming into the hobby will dwindle more.

 

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[Purley Oaks]

They should measure up the one at the riverside museum next time they're at model rail Scotland. The museum is within walking distance on the show.

Hornby didn't turn up last year...

[DJM Dave]

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Duplication

 

What is most depressing about the duplication of the Adams Radial is that it has been popular for years (if not decades - ref. Triang-Wrenn) and near the top of the polls in recent years,  ANYONE could have done one, but they just waited too long.

 

Looking at recent polls I can see that a similar situation will come about next year with (at least) the BR Standard Class 2MT 2-6-0 and S-15    -   when that happens will there be much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth, or will people just say "we told you so" ?

 

So whilst I hate duplication for having manufacturers miss out on profits due to sales being spread over more than one, I welcome it as a means of manufacturers actually doing what modellers want.

 

 

Manufacturers' on-line sales

 

Here I really am loathe to support the manufacturers.  They may well sell their major items on-line, locomotives, coaches and trucks, but items such as track and scenic items won't be attractive due to postage costs and the fact that they are more suited to a personal browsing experience.   IF the manufacturers kill off the local model shop then their overall sales will suffer and the few newcomers that we do have coming into the hobby will dwindle more.

 

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I must admit I am guilty of taking 'expressions of interest' for models via my web site (direct sales by another name) but mine are at full retail. I will never discount my stock unless it's sitting around for 6-12 months or so.

 

However I will NEVER short change my stockists, or not supply in preference to selling directly myself and therfore gaining higher markup.

*Not that I'm saying any of the manufacturers do this you understand.*

 

Also I will never reduce to clear items at a price that is less than I have charged stockists higher for previously if the stock is still plentiful in the shops. (*Same caveat here)

 

Nor will I sell at shows at such a price that it undercuts my stockists around the country, making their job ( making a living) more problematical. (*Save caveat here)

 

I WILL always support any stockist of DJModels products, as they are my lifeblood as much as you, the buying public, are theirs.

This symbiotic relationship is in danger and as the owner of DJModels Ltd I won't countenance this thought process with my own product.

 

I've always said, and the Hornby director who Video'd my presentation at the recent BRMweb live show should know my opinion, that an owner or CEO of a model railway company should not be 'just another CEO' brought in to do a job. They should be model railway men, who know that business, and that its transient, and that above all you cannot afford to b g er the modeller around.

To not mentally 'own' the business in hand and eat, live and sleep model trains and be able to empathise with the modeller in most respects is folly. ( *same caveat here*)

 

Phew, got this far? Well done as I'm done now. Lol

Cheers

Dave

[Legend]

Even having the physical prototype of the Hornby radial is no guarantee of production. Remember the Hornby class 17? Or loco drive dean goods?

Yes but in fairness they were never announced and we only know about them from Pat Hammonds books. This one is announced. True , though , the B17 which appeared in a Hornby display case once took a long long time to appear. It really does depend if Hornby have secured manufacturing capacity. Oxford could still get there's first. In this case I suspect first out will capture the lions share of sales. Unless they make something horrendous bloomer, like installing traction tyres!

[miles73128]

.

 

Duplication

 

What is most depressing about the duplication of the Adams Radial is that it has been popular for years (if not decades - ref. Triang-Wrenn) and near the top of the polls in recent years,  ANYONE could have done one, but they just waited too long.

 

Looking at recent polls I can see that a similar situation will come about next year with (at least) the BR Standard Class 2MT 2-6-0 and S-15    -   when that happens will there be much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth, or will people just say "we told you so" ?

 

So whilst I hate duplication for having manufacturers miss out on profits due to sales being spread over more than one, I welcome it as a means of manufacturers actually doing what modellers want.

 

 

Manufacturers' on-line sales

 

Here I really am loathe to support the manufacturers.  They may well sell their major items on-line, locomotives, coaches and trucks, but items such as track and scenic items won't be attractive due to postage costs and the fact that they are more suited to a personal browsing experience.   IF the manufacturers kill off the local model shop then their overall sales will suffer and the few newcomers that we do have coming into the hobby will dwindle more.

 

I don't disagree with your point about browsing for smaller items, but it wont be the manufactures that "kill off" model shops. It will be the Market..........

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[Mad McCann]

While the Jones Goods and her other 'Fab Four' sisters are a picturesque proposition, it's not what the ScR modeller truly needsWhere are the McIntosh 0-6-0s and tanks, Pickersgill 4-4-0s, the big S (J37) type 0-6-0s that were ScR bread and butter types right up to 1963 and 1967 in the case of the latter? CR designs were especially migratory and were found in all corners of Scotland bar East Lothian, Berwickshire and Roxburghshire.NB types wandered as far as Ayr and Dumfries latterly so their application is pretty universal by comparison for example, the divisions of the Southern.

[stewartingram]

Dare I say Hornby might bring out the Adams Radial in East Kent Railway and/or War Department liveries ???

 

From the Bluebell's website: http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/pics/adams_tank.html

 

"This particular loco though had been sold to the military during the first World War, and in 1919 was sold on to the privately run East Kent Railway. In 1946 it was bought by the Southern and overhauled to provide relief for the other two Lyme Regis engines, and the three operated the branch until 1960"

 

Maybe another reason for Hornby being interested in this loco, it had a very varied life, had a Kentish connection, and served in some way with the military during WW1 - all ticking boxes for inclusion in its range.

Hornby rep quoted the following to me:

 

Hoping to deliver in early 2016; doing the 3x BR variants for the moment.

 

Stewart

[Bernard Lamb]

While the Jones Goods and her other 'Fab Four' sisters are a picturesque proposition, it's not what the ScR modeller truly needs

But that does not seem to be what drives the market.

Very few modellers "need" a Beatie Well Tank or a P2 to go to opposite ends of the spectrum.

Collectors rule OK.

Bernard

[Guest Belgian]

Will need to think carefully about this, I will certainly buy at least one radial from each manufacturer, but who will get an order for the 3rd?

And will either have a dedicated place to fit sound?

Hornby's detailed specification on its website shows that a speaker will be able to be fitted in the bunker.

 

JE

[Legend]

While the Jones Goods and her other 'Fab Four' sisters are a picturesque proposition, it's not what the ScR modeller truly needsWhere are the McIntosh 0-6-0s and tanks, Pickersgill 4-4-0s, the big S (J37) type 0-6-0s that were ScR bread and butter types right up to 1963 and 1967 in the case of the latter? CR designs were especially migratory and were found in all corners of Scotland bar East Lothian, Berwickshire and Roxburghshire.NB types wandered as far as Ayr and Dumfries latterly so their application is pretty universal by comparison for example, the divisions of the Southern.

Completely agree. I'd love a Caley Jumbo ,and one I keep on banging on about a Caley 812. Just think of it in lovely Caley Blue, black, LMS black, BR early and late crest. It does look like there is a trend to model preserved locos , so an 812 fits that. It's also had exposure in the Severn Valley. railway. But alas , instead it appears we are getting 2 Adams Radials and unbelievably for me two class 71s. Surely very geographically limited. I'm surprised that this could support 1 model let alone 2

 

There's got to be a market for Jones a Goods , Glen, Gordon Highlander. We really need a MacKernows

[The Stationmaster]

But that does not seem to be what drives the market.

Very few modellers "need" a Beatie Well Tank or a P2 to go to opposite ends of the spectrum.

Collectors rule OK.

Bernard

There are of course many different species of 'collector' and what does seem to have been prevalent in r-t-r land is the species 'that looks nice so I'll have one, and run it under Rule 1'.  So many of these models will no doubt run but in totally unsuited scenarios.  However if that helps roll the pitch for those who want to run them in a more or less relevant scenario who are we to complain should we happen to want such a loco or whatever?

 

The only question in my my mind is about the robustness of the 'that looks nice' market - will it be kllled by price or will it survive as the economy improves, or will it be swamped by over many offerings?  I think that what will happen is that many folk will still buy in this market for the same continuing reason - but as a result they will not buy something else.  And the decider in many ways might be the reason for not buying that 'something else' - fed up with waiting for it, too expensive, unable to get one, poor review of it or whatever; those are most likely I think to be the reasons.  And don't forget that 'the something else' will more than likely be something completely different from the thing which is purchased and that someone might buy a completely out of (model) time and place Pre-Group engine 'because it looks lovely' while they get fed-up with waiting for the loco they really need for their layout's mixed traffic work.

 

Meanwhile the 'hardened collector' market undoubtedly exists but I bet for most areas of model railway collecting the number involved very, very rarely exceeds 4 figures and often is much smaller.  And that is completely at odds with - for example - the number of P2s Hornby would appear to have sold or the number of well tanks Kernow have sold.  I think you can forget collectors - many of the niche model purchases are an interesting form of impluse buyer in which people buy what appeals to them but are prepared to wait for it (to some extent).

[Deltic]

GA stands for General Arrangement, and is a guide to how the completed unit will look. This may need a number of sub assemblies to achieve the finished complete article, and these will be made up from detailed drawings.  What is sometimes forgotten is that using a jig to build a locomotive (or train, lorry, bus, car, aircraft) is a fairly recent innovation.  The artisan would be given bar, sheet material and directed to manufacture said product.  The only concession to duplication be the use of moulded/pressed items.  If you run a laser scanner or tape measure over say any of the preserved Deltic's you will come back with subtle differences. When it comes to ship build you can even find that ship spaces are different sizes between ships of the same Class built at the same time by the same individuals.

 

On the subject of duplication it should be borne in mind that some companies conduct virtually all their design work BEFORE making any announcement about a forth-coming release, whereas some will announce that they INTEND to make XYZ before an item is more than a glint in their collective eye. There will always be the chance of duplication, and if you look to the plastic kit market it shows that it is not uncommon - even in the same scale - it is then up to the consumer to decide.

[Ravenser]

Slightly off topic, but it appears that the J15 is now only 3-4 months away , and the K1 similarly close, with the D16/3 3 months behind, and the Adams Radial officially 3 months behind that . Although someone is reporting off record comments from a Hornby rep that they hope to get the Radial out for early 2016. That sounds like an insider allowing for slippage

 

The LMS suburbans looked crisp and are presumably  good EPs .

 

I get the impression Hornby have been forced to announce what they are working on for 2015 early by others' announcements : I don't recall Hornby showing test-shot models so openly before. Despite what is being suggested in some comments I simply don't believe there is any question of Hornby copying others' models or making spoiler announcements here. The only way they could turn up at Warley with an EP of an Adams Radial is if they had been working on one for some considerable time (it didn't look like a 3D scan of a whitemetal kit - far too crisp) - the absence of an EP for the 71 is in marked contrast and signals  that the 71 is at a much earlier stage than either the Radial or the King. (It isn't being flagged as for pre-order)

 

However , the simple fact is that Hornby have prominently displayed an EP of a Radial at the biggest show in the country, and we have a pretty good idea what they are going to offer, with CAD also being displayed on their site. They have announced a price. Oxford Diecast have promised they will produce an EP in 3-4 months , but until they do, their model is still dazzlingly- sold brochureware.  Hornby have a substantial track record in OO steam, and we can at least answer one point - the Radial will have separate smoke box darts , not moulded (I didn't check whether there were any moulded hand rails...) . Mechanically Hornby are at least as good as anyone else. We have no idea what standard of detail or mechanism Oxford will deliver  

 

Competent judges will be able to say how accurate their efforts are - but unless there are obvious blunders there should be no reason not to buy the Hornby model

 

I'm sceptical whether the market can really support two rival models of a niche model like this. It seems to have coped with duplication of the Ivatt twins, but they had a vastly greater geographic spread. This seems to suggest that Oxford Diecast absolutely have to beat Hornby to market for their version to succeed, but Hornby at this point appear to be 4-9 months ahead of them in the race. Oxford will therefore be relying on Hornby having production problems preventing them getting the Radial out quickly

 

A general point is that the new regime at Hornby seem to be much more open about products in development . The GW heavy tanks and Star got to release without it being certain whether they had moulded handrails and smokebox darts. The situation at the Ricoh two months ago with test models of the year's new locos on open display , not even in a glass case , so you could see them from a few inches away is I think unprecedented from Hornby . We are therefore unlikely to get unwelcome surprises

 

And I really hope that nobody else - eg Oxford - is intending to duplicate the LMS suburbans everything revealed at Warley was either very close to release or something where duplication exists

[The Black Hat]

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Duplication

 

What is most depressing about the duplication of the Adams Radial is that it has been popular for years (if not decades - ref. Triang-Wrenn) and near the top of the polls in recent years,  ANYONE could have done one, but they just waited too long.

 

Looking at recent polls I can see that a similar situation will come about next year with (at least) the BR Standard Class 2MT 2-6-0 and S-15    -   when that happens will there be much wringing of hands and gnashing of teeth, or will people just say "we told you so" ?

 

So whilst I hate duplication for having manufacturers miss out on profits due to sales being spread over more than one, I welcome it as a means of manufacturers actually doing what modellers want.

 

 

Yes that might be true for some engines where you look at the range of engines produced for an area and then see what else can be done. Shop comissions are tending to be smaller, tank engines that pick off a novelty value. Kernow are the exception forging ahead (again with shop comissions) in this market by comissioning more models suited to their area. The Western suburban units are examples of a kind that saw local use but as they are a unit could also be popular for other areas, perhaps those modelling Scottish suburban too I think.

 

I think sometimes that a forthcoming model can be obvious about who is going to make it. The BR standard 2MT will more than likely be Bachmann with a top needed to go onto their dcc ready chassis for the Ivatt 2. I know thats not always the case as the BR standard 4 shows duplication can still be made, but in the case of smaller comissioned runs a shop would likely avoid this thinking its obvious where it will come from. I was surprised not to see it along with the class 90 in Bachmanns 25 year non-announcement as it would have been easy to add to headlines for the work needed compared with a new engine requring all new parts, even if it came with the caveat that it would take longer to produce than expected due to supply and manufacturing issues.

 

As regards duplication, its fine to think that manufacturers are doing what people want if your the recipent of two models of the same engine youd want. Others still see it as a waste of an opportunity to have modelled something else, equally popular (perhaps more so with repeat sales) but also more relavent and significant to the area they are from and the current range that is produced for it.

 

Manufacturers' on-line sales

 

Here I really am loathe to support the manufacturers. They may well sell their major items on-line, locomotives, coaches and trucks, but items such as track and scenic items won't be attractive due to postage costs and the fact that they are more suited to a personal browsing experience. IF the manufacturers kill off the local model shop then their overall sales will suffer and the few newcomers that we do have coming into the hobby will dwindle more.

 

I agree.

[jsp3970]

Well, it does have a coathanger on the roof, so you could pretend?

Nope, not even close. I grew up in LMR land so for me electric meant AC.

 

Also, on a personal side, I would love for someone to do an AL1, that way I could get some spares and finish off the four bodies I have sitting waiting their turn to be completed!

 

However guess all isn't lost. I have an MTK 71 so I can probably get the parts to finish that off, eventually!

[Xerces Fobe2]

Another we'll know manufacturer at London Festival of Raulway Modelling was selling a number of their kits at prices lower than the traders at the same Show which were far from happy.

 

This whole issue is undermining the future of our hobby however the real problem is overall there has been a continual decline in the customer base with an increase in manufacturers. Just how popular is the toy train set these days with the up and coming generations and how many will become the modelers of the future not many I would guess?

 

Maybe the future will be all models 3D printed to order assuming that a paint process can be in incorporated and motors and other parts can be made in a similar manner. we are not there yet however it appears to be a logical progression. In this new World the manufactures may not exit as the use of smart software my well make if possible to scale drawings from prototypes for printing and we may all be able do this ourselves from home on our MAC/PC!

[wombatofludham]

Nope, not even close. I grew up in LMR land so for me electric meant AC.

 

Also, on a personal side, I would love for someone to do an AL1, that way I could get some spares and finish off the four bodies I have sitting waiting their turn to be completed!

 

However guess all isn't lost. I have an MTK 71 so I can probably get the parts to finish that off, eventually!

 

To be honest I never expected Hornby to do another AC given their view the only electrics worth doing to a high standard have a third rail.  It's annoying that they are doing a very niche electric loco in competition with DJM/Kernow, one with an even more restricted sphere of operation than any AC electric but we are where we are.

 

For me, I think two things have changed in the past 12 months regarding AC electrics: one, the announcement of the Bachmann Class 90 which shot down in flames the constant chorus of "no one likes electrics, they're sales death" parroted on this and other forums, if the 85 had been such a sales lemon Bachmann, who need to turn themselves around financially as they were reported as not having been making a profit last year, would not have committed a valuable investment and production slot to it when some other pretty collectable kettle could have been produced: secondly, the relatively high position of the Class 87 in the wish list shows that the tide is turning.  Whilst I think there is a crying need for an 86 as Heljan no longer produce theirs and the Hornby model is very dated, and the 86 is arguably the Class 47 of the AC electrics being still in service and the most numerous single class, I do think Bachmann's decision shows that at least one manufacturer considers AC electrics are worth investing in.

[Mike Storey]

, I do think Bachmann's decision shows that at least one manufacturer considers AC electrics are worth investing in.

 

Not until they have done a 2 HAP pleeeeze..... then I will shut up.

[Southernman46]

Oh no, there's the Bachmann announcements to come yet.........not sure I can take much more of this 

[melmerby]

Here is a better shot of the radial taken today:

 

 

and the 700 class:

 

 

Crosti:

 

 

The coaches:

 

 

King:

 

 

I hope these images are of more use!

You can see the King is far from a finished production sample.

 

Keith

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

When it comes to ship build you can even find that ship spaces are different sizes between ships of the same Class built at the same time by the same individuals.

 

 

Or even between either side of the same ship.

Take a close look at a Thames Barge or any thing of similar build.

Bernard

[melmerby]

On the subject of the Crosti 9F:

 

Did any of them have a double chimney?

 

There was a guy at the Hornby stand complaining "Hornby have got it wrong again"

I asked him why and he said "They had double chimneys"

I replied that as far as I could remember the front chimney was only for fire lighting and was always single.

He insisted some had double Chimneys  - he could remember them from his time at Wellingborough shed!

 

Was he right or wrong? or memory playing tricks?

 

Keith

[QuoitsPlayer]

The Crosti looks amazing cant believe its 'only' RailRoad 

 

Regarding the LMS coaches am I right in thinking this looks like a return to separatly fit roof vents? As opposed to moulded on 

[The Black Hat]

Quick check on google. "92023 Crosti 9F", has single chimney....

 

check by adding "double chimney" - no pictures seen with one.
check by adding "Wellingbrough" - again no pictures seen with one.

[melmerby]

The Crosti looks amazing cant believe its 'only' RailRoad 

 

Regarding the LMS coaches am I right in thinking this looks like a return to separatly fit roof vents? As opposed to moulded on 

Agree about the Crosti - it's got loads of detail and at this stage I assume it is a early production model.

 

Re the coaches: As these appear to be engineering prototypes I wouldn't personally assume one way or other.

 

Keith