Hattons announce 14xx / 48xx / 58xx

[Mike Riley]

Frankly, I'd rather have SE Finecast go back through K's catalogue!  I don't want another disappointment like the non-pre-war 4800. I was very upset (!)

 

In a welcome sign that traditional kits are alive and well, SE Finecast has announced a new whitemetal /nickel silver chassis kit of the 517 0-4-2T: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/117704-south-eastern-finecast-gwr-517-0-4-2t/. 

 

More typical of branch services that the 4800 until at least the mid-1930s, it is, for me, the solution to the gap Hatton's have left by not tooling the 4800 for its 'as built' condition. 

 

Without needing to master full-on etched brass kit construction, here is a good route to an accurate GW branch line locomotive for the pre-war modeller.  I'm afraid that, thanks to the compromises on the RTR tooling suite versus the flexibility of the Finecast kit, my money will be going to Finecast not Hattons for my branch passenger engines. 

 

But surely it is easier to remove the bunker side steps on the Hatton model than build a whitemetal kit?

[Edwardian]

But surely it is easier to remove the bunker side steps on the Hatton model than build a whitemetal kit?

It would have been easy enough to tool for that option in the first place.

 

517s have more character

[The Stationmaster]

It would have been easy enough to tool for that option in the first place.

 

517s have more character

 

And more variations than Dean Goods times ten, or more.

[Edwardian]

And more variations than Dean Goods times ten, or more.

 

Which is why it favours a kit.

 

The 4800, on the other hand, requires merely a version with a different step and no bunker steps.  Think of how many variations Hattons had on their Beyer Garretts?

 

I won't buy a Hattons 4800 to back-date mainly because I am so annoyed (!).  I hate the fact that on some pretext or other they are peddling versions in both pre-1934 and shirtbutton liveries to capture the ignorant, lazy or unwary who might want a nominally 1930s layout, having denied them the proper tooling. That smacks of cynicism and I won't reward it with a sale.

 

Apologies, it is a personal thing, but whereas some releases are bound to disappoint some of us some of the time, the decision to exclude the 4800's 'as built' condition struck me as a particularly poor one.

 

On the other hand, I imagine the war-time and onward modeller has much to be pleased with, lucky them, and I wish them well with it.

[brian777999]

I have not read the whole thread but I have a question :

 

 Does this model have traction tyres ?

Edited December 10, 2016 by brian777999

[cctransuk]

...... who might want a nominally 1930s layout, having denied them the proper tooling. That smacks of cynicism and I won't reward it with a sale.

 

...... the decision to exclude the 4800's 'as built' condition struck me as a particularly poor one.

 

 

We keep coming back to this, don't we?

 

The decision, I strongly suspect, came down to "Do we really want to invest in an extra set of expensive tool slides, and thus raise the price of all of the models, in order to satisfy a small minority group of pre-grouping modellers who will probably not purchase in total even our minimum run of that particular variant, so that we end up selling them off at a discount? Modifying our later period model to as-built condition would be, after all, a very simple task".

 

You won't buy on principle; they won't oblige you for sound financial reasons.

 

I'm afraid I know who I side with!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[gwrrob]

Specification:

 

RP25 wheel profiles

6 Pin DCC Socket

Provision for DCC sound speaker in coal bunker

Chemically blackened wheels

Separately fitted and blackened handrails

NEM pockets with tension lock couplings

5 pole motor, capable of similar running qualities to DJ Models Austerity or better

Fully detailed and painted cab interior

Vacuum brake pipes fitted to bufferbeams - additional bufferbeam detailing pipes included with model for customer to fit

Separately fitted etched brass cabside numberplates (as per King class)

Separately fitted BR smokebox door numberplate & shedplate (where applicable)

Provision of Auto-working gear (or lack of) where applicable to specific model

Correct details for individual model - Top Feed, Bunker Steps, Whistle Guard

Separately supplied and fitted headlamps (as per King class)

Electrical pickup on all six wheels

Prototypical gap between frames with cosmetic inside motion

Separately fitted smokebox door handle/dart

Variation of top-feed and non-top feed fitted boilers

Cab window glazing

Seperately fitted (and removable) cabside doors

Correct fitment of ATC equipment and whistle guard per model

 

No mention of traction tyres.

[The Stationmaster]

Anybody wanna buy an assembled K's body - in good condition and nicely put together many years ago by an old pal who has subsequently become well know for his venture into model railway journalism.  Original chassis parts included but no wheels so definitely no traction tyres but the brass bits might be good for something (DCC bus bars?).  No smokebox door (fortunately) and no motor (even more fortunately).  

 

Suit wealthy enthusiast interested in resuscitation of ancient whitemetal structures. 

[brian777999]

gwrrob : Thanks for that. I now see the phrase ''electrical pickups on all six wheels'' so I think we can rule out any traction tyres. Now we just have to wait

[Fat Lieutenant]

We keep coming back to this, don't we?

 

The decision, I strongly suspect, came down to "Do we really want to invest in an extra set of expensive tool slides, and thus raise the price of all of the models, in order to satisfy a small minority group of pre-grouping modellers who will probably not purchase in total even our minimum run of that particular variant, so that we end up selling them off at a discount? Modifying our later period model to as-built condition would be, after all, a very simple task".

 

You won't buy on principle; they won't oblige you for sound financial reasons.

 

I'm afraid I know who I side with!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

While I cannot match Edwardian's rage, I don't buy this "just be grateful for whatever you get" bilge that is a common theme here.

 

I don't say your post counts among them, but it comes close to it.

 

By the way, though the phrase "You won't buy on principle; they won't oblige you for sound financial reasons" sounds kinda neat, it does not logically mean anything.  Should he buy something he doesn't want?  Or do you mean a manufacturer won't make product B because he didn't want product A?  

 

Someone said, probably in reference to this and/or Oxford's execrable Dean, that the problem with any RTR release is that, absent inadvertent duplication, its introduction generally guarantees no other RTR manufacturer will touch the subject for a generation.  So that means no chance of a pre-war 4800 for a generation.  Sorry not to be pleased about that.

 

So, as I understand it, there are more WR than GW modellers these days, but, there is still plenty of life in the GW branch line genre if layouts such as Much Murkle and Hintock and the rest are anything to go by.  So, Hattons turned its back on the pre-war GW branch line modeller, and in the process, made a pre-war 4800 a dud proposition for anyone else. 

 

Edwardian says that's a bad call.  I say it lets a whole bunch of folk down.  Do you expect them to be happy with that?  To reward Hattons' decision with sales?

 

He says he'd rather build a kit.  Can't fault him for that.

[cctransuk]

While I cannot match Edwardian's rage, I don't buy this "just be grateful for whatever you get" bilge that is a common theme here.

 

I don't say your post counts among them, but it comes close to it.

 

By the way, though the phrase "You won't buy on principle; they won't oblige you for sound financial reasons" sounds kinda neat, it does not logically mean anything.  Should he buy something he doesn't want?  Or do you mean a manufacturer won't make product B because he didn't want product A?

 

Sorry, I can't let that pass.

 

" .... bilge ..."; what EXACTLY in my post warrants that riposte? Please spell out in detail where my conjecture as to Hattons' motives is, (and I quote the definition of the word), " nonsense; rubbish".

 

Do you contend that the cost of an extra mould slide would not increase costs?

 

Do you contend that the full minimum run of an as-built 48XX would sell out?

 

What about "You won't buy on principle; they won't oblige you for sound financial reasons....."  "does not logically mean anything?" It is a plain statement of fact.

 

Do you contend that Edwardian is NOT refusing to buy on principle? He quite clearly states that this IS the case.

 

Do you contend that Hattons are NOT declining to produce an as-built 48XX "for sound financial reasons"? Perhaps you believe that they are refusing to service a market, which you maintain exists, as a personal affront to Edwardian, yourself and other modellers of the pre-Grouping GWR?

 

I only post when I have thoroughly thought through the issue in question, and then only make statements based on facts and logic. The least you can do is to support your insults and insinuations with some degree of rational argument.

 

I base my assessment of the relative markets for pre-grouping GWR, post-grouping GWR and BR(WR) on over sixteen years of producing transfers, and the enquiries that I receive in consequence.

 

As a final point, please could you detail precisely what changes will need to be made to the Hattons model, in order to accurately represent the as-built condition. That may help us to better understand the over-riding need for that particular model to be produced?

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited December 10, 2016 by cctransuk

[olivegreen]

We keep coming back to this, don't we?

 

The decision, I strongly suspect, came down to "Do we really want to invest in an extra set of expensive tool slides, and thus raise the price of all of the models, in order to satisfy a small minority group of pre-grouping modellers who will probably not purchase in total even our minimum run of that particular variant, so that we end up selling them off at a discount? Modifying our later period model to as-built condition would be, after all, a very simple task".

 

You won't buy on principle; they won't oblige you for sound financial reasons.

 

I'm afraid I know who I side with!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

 

The voice of reason among the neurotic drivel that is being written here !  

 

Edited to add that John Isherwood's last post (which arrived while I was writing mine) serves even more to underline my comment above.

Edited December 10, 2016 by olivegreen

[cctransuk]

The voice of reason among the neurotic drivel that is being written here !  

 

Thank you - I do sometimes get the impression that all of the manufacturers have got a personal grudge against certain of our fellow members !

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Edwardian]

Still, pity there isn't a pre-war or as built 4800.

 

Bit of a missed opportunity there.

[Miss Prism]

Apologies for the incorrect terminology I used earlier - when referred to 'otherwise as delivered' I meant the locos were still in 'Great Western' livery when steps were fitted, not that they were fresh out of the shops, as it were.

 

4825, 4871, 5808 and 5814 remained in pre-1942 livery after the bunker steps were fitted and the footplate steps were apertured?

 

[cctransuk]

Still, pity there isn't a pre-war or as built 4800.

 

Bit of a missed opportunity there.

 

I agree - the opportunity for you and all your pre-grouping GWR fellow modellers to approach Hattons immediately following their announcement of the14XX / 48XX, in order to commission the extra tool slide and a short production run of the as-built model.

 

As it is contended in some circles that such a version would be a financially beneficial opportunity for Hattons, surely it would be a dead cert. for a private commission, utilising most of Hatton's tooling for the later version? Crowd-funding is all the rage - time to get in on the act!

 

Too late now for the 48XX, but a definite opportunity for the pre-groupers next time a 'nearly right' product is announced; I look forward to reading of just such an initiative in the not too distant future.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited December 10, 2016 by cctransuk

[Edwardian]

4825, 4871, 5808 and 5814 remained in pre-1942 livery after the bunker steps were fitted and the footplate steps were apertured?

 

This may or may not be so.  I think it behoves Hattons to demonstrate accuracy by publishing reliably dated photographs.  It may be that there are matches to the number/livery combinations.  If so, I would not have expected them to be suitable for pre-War.  Rather, I expect they would be examples of the class that got the mods without a repaint.

[Mad Carew Too]

While I wouldn't have used an inflammatory word like "bilge", most of the unattractive language here, I have begun to notice, tends to travel to, not from, those not uncritically overjoyed by whatever the RTR manufacturers hand down from, as it were, on high.

 

It is also noticeable how people here clearly feel they have licence to indulge in some of the choicer language and in a kind of low-level bullying, when it's pro-manufacturer.

 

Well, I would say that, wouldn't I, because I agree that it is a shame that we do not have the tooling to match the pre-war liveries. There are, as Fat Lieutenant observed, a reasonable number of pre-war GW branch line or branch junction layouts around, so "as built" is hardly an obscure choice for this prototype.  There is, perhaps, a touch of opportunism in selling the later condition body in early liveries, even if, for a handful of cases, this might have been prototypical. 

 

It is undoubtedly a missed opportunity.

[Steamport Southport]

I don't understand the references to pre grouping seeing as they weren't built until 1932.  

 

 

Jason

[NHY 581]

I struggle to comprehend how bad tempered this thread has become.

 

It's not a question of world peace. It's about a toy. If Edwardian laments the fact that the original version is not being produced, so be it. Whether or not I agree with the sentiment expressed , I respect his view.

 

As yet I have no intention to purchase one of these. However, I am increasingly drawn to Westèrn region and I have a soft spot for these having owned an Airfix example many years ago. Following some aspects of the O2 from Kernow which I struggle with though, I am reserving judgement on these.

 

Come on now people. We are all grown ups. Respect and consideration never harmed anyone and we are discussing a toy train here.

 

 

Take a breath.

 

Rob.

[cctransuk]

I struggle to comprehend how bad tempered this thread has become.

 

It's not a question of world peace. It's about a toy. If Edwardian laments the fact that the original version is not being produced, so be it. Whether or not I agree with the sentiment expressed , I respect his view.

 

As yet I have no intention to purchase one of these. However, I am increasingly drawn to Westèrn region and I have a soft spot for these having owned an Airfix example many years ago. Following some aspects of the O2 from Kernow which I struggle with though, I am reserving judgement on these.

 

Come on now people. We are all grown ups. Respect and consideration never harmed anyone and we are discussing a toy train here.

 

 

Take a breath.

 

Rob.

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

However, we are all abundantly aware of Edwardian's view on this subject but, as I said earlier, at his instigation "We keep coming back to this, dont we?"

 

If he feels the need to keep making his point, others feel free to keep pointing out the flaws in his argument.

 

I think that we'd all sooner that his viewpoint be 'taken as read'.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited December 10, 2016 by cctransuk

[Porcy Mane]

Take a breath.

 

However, we are all abundantly aware of Edwardian's view on this subject but, as I said earlier, at his instigation "We keep coming back to this, dont we?"

 

Shallow breather?

 

P

[NHY 581]

Ah!!! The classic last word ploy......

[jonathan3005]

It's safe guys you can come out now its over the thread can resume in peace and harmony, as there is no official date other than between December and January and it is looking less likely of December does anyone expect them in January or are we looking February before we get our hands on them. Cannot wait for mine the first loco i will own of "The Great Way Around". Oh did i say that out loud, I meant to say the GWR.  

[tomparryharry]

I'm truly sorry that my post has caused such cross words to be posted on here, and I apologise without reservation. 

 

For me, I'm pleased that this particular model will give the effect of a 48xx tank, and will, for most cases, look the part. I don't model P4, so my standards are already compromised. I'm after effect, so I know it will be better than the older offerings of K's, and Airfix, etc. I wouldn't mind a 517, so that's a crowdfunding exercise in waiting.

 

I sometimes read other peoples posts avidly: They provide me with much information, and sometimes, humour. I'm saddened to see the stress that a model locomotive can bring, and I recall the type & style of posts that accompanied the Hornby 42xx announcement. I know, I participated.

 

Having ordered a locomotive, it brings me to another problem. I now need the correct autocoaches for the Penygraig branch, along with the Rhymney Railway trailers. Then, there's the Taff Vale cars, converted from steam railcars......

 

I would have said "Merry Christmas", but it's anything but merry.

 

so,

 

December.

 

Ian.