Hattons announce 14xx / 48xx / 58xx

[cctransuk]

I think you might be missing the point John. The 'niche' modellers to whom you refer just get on with it and make the ashpan or whatever. Niche armchair critics who don't make anything are another matter entirely, and most of the ones I see are on high traffic sites.

 

You are entirely correct - how remiss of me to fail to make that distinction !

 

Those who 'do' do so quietly; those who 'don't' make a great song and dance about how someone else should have done it for them.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Fat Lieutenant]

I came back on to apologise for being "abrasive", but am sorry to note the passive-aggressive sniping at the critics has managed to continue even in my absence.

 

I could say that, in tone, I took my cue from these gentlemen and their dismissive attitude to other members.  But that would be to make excuses.  Honestly, if I have offended, I apologise. I could have put things differently.  I guess I should have realised, as a new boy, that we are all equal here, but some are more equal than others, and that there would be pro-manufacturer slant to the site that ultimately determines what we can, or cannot, get away with saying.

 

I don't know why Andy Y thinks he's met me.  Unless he served, I doubt it. On the other hand, I experienced a certain deja vu over how these sorts of topics get moderated, so may be that's it.

 

So, I will try to put things less aggressively.  Will others extend that courtesy in return?  Well, I guess that's up to them.

 

Moving on, there is IMH[umble]O a tendency to confuse what I believe are two distinct points:

 

1. What some here believe we should all be able to do if we are to call ourselves "modellers", rather than the "box shakers" referred to with a certain contempt, and

 

2. What others here believe should be expected of a modern RTR release.

 

Put simply, our ability to correct certain issues with an RTR model (e.g. build an ash-pan or clip some handrails) is really beside the point if these are matters that the customer could reasonably have expected the manufacturer to get right on a modern-spec RTR product.  

 

I think this was amply illustrated self-defeating question - how hard can it be to add an ash-pan to this model?

 

Well sure, for the guys who measured it on the prototype and who produced a CAD that included it, how hard should it have been?

 

When there are mistakes like this, it is fair to point them out.  It is hard not to sound negative in doing so.  To seek to dismiss all this as some kind of irritating high-pitch background noise is not necessary and doesn't (IMHO) do this site any favours.

 

It is still a great looking little model.  Perhaps some of us could have said that more often.  If I am tempted to buy one, I will have to make some changes.  But, thanks to the well-informed contributors here, at least I will know what changes to make.  They added something informed, constructive and useful to the debate.

 

Does that mean the manufacturer shouldn't have paid more attention and got certain issues right in the first place?   I think it should, but I don't want to go to war over it.  I apologise for my part in the grumpiness on this topic, but if people with legitimate points are routinely dismissed as white noise creators, it's going to be hard to keep this cheerful!

[Edwardian]

I came back on to apologise for being "abrasive", but am sorry to note the passive-aggressive sniping at the critics has managed to continue even in my absence.

 

I could say that, in tone, I took my cue from these gentlemen and their dismissive attitude to other members.  But that would be to make excuses.  Honestly, if I have offended, I apologise. I could have put things differently.  I guess I should have realised, as a new boy, that we are all equal here, but some are more equal than others, and that there would be pro-manufacturer slant to the site that ultimately determines what we can, or cannot, get away with saying.

 

I don't know why Andy Y thinks he's met me.  Unless he served, I doubt it. On the other hand, I experienced a certain deja vu over how these sorts of topics get moderated, so may be that's it.

 

So, I will try to put things less aggressively.  Will others extend that courtesy in return?  Well, I guess that's up to them.

 

Moving on, there is IMH[umble]O a tendency to confuse what I believe are two distinct points:

 

1. What some here believe we should all be able to do if we are to call ourselves "modellers", rather than the "box shakers" referred to with a certain contempt, and

 

2. What others here believe should be expected of a modern RTR release.

 

Put simply, our ability to correct certain issues with an RTR model (e.g. build an ash-pan or clip some handrails) is really beside the point if these are matters that the customer could reasonably have expected the manufacturer to get right on a modern-spec RTR product.  

 

I think this was amply illustrated self-defeating question - how hard can it be to add an ash-pan to this model?

 

Well sure, for the guys who measured it on the prototype and who produced a CAD that included it, how hard should it have been?

 

When there are mistakes like this, it is fair to point them out.  It is hard not to sound negative in doing so.  To seek to dismiss all this as some kind of irritating high-pitch background noise is not necessary and doesn't (IMHO) do this site any favours.

 

It is still a great looking little model.  Perhaps some of us could have said that more often.  If I am tempted to buy one, I will have to make some changes.  But, thanks to the well-informed contributors here, at least I will know what changes to make.  They added something informed, constructive and useful to the debate.

 

Does that mean the manufacturer shouldn't have paid more attention and got certain issues right in the first place?   I think it should, but I don't want to go to war over it.  I apologise for my part in the grumpiness on this topic, but if people with legitimate points are routinely dismissed as white noise creators, it's going to be hard to keep this cheerful!

 

I think that's fair comment.

 

My survival tips would include:

 

- Keep calm. Don't get provoked, because you know the side on which the mailed fist will descend if you do!

 

- Try to be fair and balanced in all your assessments of a product.  Manufacturing is clearly not easy, so respect the task Manufacturers have.  

 

- Don't forget the positives, generally they outweigh the negatives and it's important to stress them.  In the case of one recent and notorious GW loco, this has proved uniquely difficult, but not so generally and not so with the 4800, which has many fine features and is a step up from the previous 14XX. 

 

-  Try to be constructive, i.e. assist a manufacturer to identify issues so that, maybe, they can be fixed.  For instance, once I realised that the latest pictures of the 4800 were of the production model, it was obvious that there was no point in pursuing the issues that had been identified.

 

- Stick at it.  Yes, you get shouted down (a lot, in my experience) and I don't enjoy it.  Eventually, more and more people will come to realise that you are a modeller with a serious point, rather than the spoilt box-shaker that others will try to make out that you are, and that you are not making a hobby out of running down the efforts of manufacturers.  I really don't enjoy finding fault.  If I see what I think is a problem, I hope that it will either prove not to be the case or that it will be picked up and cured. Above all, I am seeking to understand what I am getting in a RTR model to decide whether its for me.

 

Yes, you will still run a cropper.  There might be a grumpy coterie who will routinely take issue with even the most measured points, or make those passive aggressive sallies.  Not everyone will like you, or what you say.  Not everyone will respect you, or, even, be respectful and courteous.  When on the receiving end, you may wonder why, seemingly, you have to watch your step, whereas those who have a go at you, seemingly, do not.  But hang on in there. That is all part of the rough and tumble of life on the forum.

 

Keep calm, keep courteous, but don't let anyone bully you into silence.

 

Finally, and genuinely, well done to Hattons and DJM for getting this one off the stocks.  It's not perfect, and I hope the experience has a positive outcome in that the King will benefit from the experience of pushing out the 4800.  But it is a handsome model of a characterful prototype.  Both mechanically and cosmetically it is no doubt superior to what went before.  If I am tempted to one, I too, will make some changes and, so, the need to clip handrails or to fit something I had promised not to mention under the firebox would not put me off!    

[jjb1970]

I think that's fair comment.

 

My survival tips would include:

 

- Keep calm. Don't get provoked, because you know the side on which the mailed fist will descend if you do!

 

- Try to be fair and balanced in all your assessments of a product. Manufacturing is clearly not easy, so respect the task Manufacturers have.

 

- Don't forget the positives, generally they outweigh the negatives and it's important to stress them. In the case of one recent and notorious GW loco, this has proved uniquely difficult, but not so generally and not so with the 4800, which has many fine features and is a step up from the previous 14XX.

 

- Try to be constructive, i.e. assist a manufacturer to identify issues so that, maybe, they can be fixed. For instance, once I realised that the latest pictures of the 4800 were of the production model, it was obvious that there was no point in pursuing the issues that had been identified.

 

- Stick at it. Yes, you get shouted down (a lot, in my experience) and I don't enjoy it. Eventually, more and more people will come to realise that you are a modeller with a serious point, rather than the spoilt box-shaker that others will try to make out that you are, and that you are not making a hobby out of running down the efforts of manufacturers. I really don't enjoy finding fault. If I see what I think is a problem, I hope that it will either prove not to be the case or that it will be picked up and cured. Above all, I am seeking to understand what I am getting in a RTR model to decide whether its for me.

 

Yes, you will still run a cropper. There might be a grumpy coterie who will routinely take issue with even the most measured points, or make those passive aggressive sallies. Not everyone will like you, or what you say. Not everyone will respect you, or, even, be respectful and courteous. When on the receiving end, you may wonder why, seemingly, you have to watch your step, whereas those who have a go at you, seemingly, do not. But hang on in there. That is all part of the rough and tumble of life on the forum.

 

Keep calm, keep courteous, but don't let anyone bully you into silence.

 

Finally, and genuinely, well done to Hattons and DJM for getting this one off the stocks. It's not perfect, and I hope the experience has a positive outcome in that the King will benefit from the experience of pushing out the 4800. But it is a handsome model of a characterful prototype. Both mechanically and cosmetically it is no doubt superior to what went before. If I am tempted to one, I too, will make some changes and, so, the need to clip handrails or to fit something I had promised not to mention under the firebox would not put me off!

Very well put.

 

I think tone is important, and a sense of perspective. If criticism is offered positively and constructively then any good supplier of goods or services should welcome it. If you can hear the hatchet being sharpened and it is clearly unbalanced criticism or grounded in ulterior motives then suppliers are perfectly entitled to just dismiss it.

 

I would say that a positive tone is a two way thing and that dismissing those who buy RTR as box openers and attacking constructive criticism offered in a positive and balanced way is not helpful.

 

Another point is consistency. I have no issue with those who micro-analyse models to the Nth degree in a positive and unbiased way. I also have no issue with those who are of the if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck then it's a duck variety (I'm of that view most of the time). What does annoy me is if a person is highly critical of a model from some vendors at the same time as being very defensive about other vendors.

[DavidB]

Eventually, more and more people will come to realise that you are a modeller with a serious point

I would like to hope that you are right, but I suspect that you may be disappointed. Over the years I have had to recognise that my interests within the hobby place me very much in a minority - for example, I get as exercised by models that are the wrong shape as you do about incorrect details. And yet the number of, say, highly detailed and beautifully made 7mm scale single unit Railcars with the wrong body profile, or the glowing comments about a forthcoming highly detailed 4mm SR electric with unprototypically flat cab sides, show that most people do not share my interest in whether these things are right or wrong. And I've just had to come to accept that. So I wish you well in your hope that realisation will dawn more widely - it may be a long time in coming.

 

As for the Hattons 0-4-2T, having spent many hours poring over plans and photos to help me dismantle and rebuild a badly built 1950s CCW white metal O gauge kit into a passable replica of the real thing, it looks like a little gem to me.

 

David

[gwrrob]

 it looks like a little gem to me.

 

David

 

Absolutely and despite the faults I think they will fly off the shelves very soon.

[Clearwater]

 

The problem with the gwr is there are so many *types* of Duck. Is he a 57xx, a64xx etc etc. It doesn't help that the illustrations of the prototype are so inconsistent. Absolute minefield

 

Hat, coat etc

[jjb1970]

The problem with the gwr is there are so many *types* of Duck. Is he a 57xx, a64xx etc etc. It doesn't help that the illustrations of the prototype are so inconsistent. Absolute minefield

 

Hat, coat etc

They all look the same when shredded and served with those rather good pancakes and hoysin sauce. That gives me an idea for lunch........

[Porcy Mane]

The problem with the gwr is there are so many *types* of Duck. Is he a 57xx, a64xx etc etc. It doesn't help that the illustrations of the prototype are so inconsistent. Absolute minefield

 

Hat, coat etc

 ... and even when given a second life there could still be considerable variation.

 

 

P

 

 

[Clearwater]

They all look the same when shredded and served with those rather good pancakes and hoysin sauce. That gives me an idea for lunch........

Though if those are still quacking, I'd suggest they're a little underdone...

[kandc_au]

I came back on to apologise for being "abrasive", but am sorry to note the passive-aggressive sniping at the critics has managed to continue even in my absence.

 

I could say that, in tone, I took my cue from these gentlemen and their dismissive attitude to other members.  But that would be to make excuses.  Honestly, if I have offended, I apologise. I could have put things differently.  I guess I should have realised, as a new boy, that we are all equal here, but some are more equal than others, and that there would be pro-manufacturer slant to the site that ultimately determines what we can, or cannot, get away with saying.

 

I don't know why Andy Y thinks he's met me.  Unless he served, I doubt it. On the other hand, I experienced a certain deja vu over how these sorts of topics get moderated, so may be that's it.

 

So, I will try to put things less aggressively.  Will others extend that courtesy in return?  Well, I guess that's up to them.

 

Moving on, there is IMH[umble]O a tendency to confuse what I believe are two distinct points:

 

1. What some here believe we should all be able to do if we are to call ourselves "modellers", rather than the "box shakers" referred to with a certain contempt, and

 

2. What others here believe should be expected of a modern RTR release.

 

Put simply, our ability to correct certain issues with an RTR model (e.g. build an ash-pan or clip some handrails) is really beside the point if these are matters that the customer could reasonably have expected the manufacturer to get right on a modern-spec RTR product.  

 

I think this was amply illustrated self-defeating question - how hard can it be to add an ash-pan to this model?

 

The biggest issue I have seen on this thread is the same arguments put on what is wrong with the model and explanations given as to why there are not so any variants of the model , YET the arguing is going on and on like a broken record. It seems to me that NOT ALL responses are either read or understood in their entirety.

I, like everyone else would like the perfect model. But the question has to be at what price?

There are arguments that they can make slides of side to change the era and yet of you read the responses, it is not as simple as that given the way the dies had been made with what sections on each die.

This manufacturer has been courteous enough to answer a lot of questions where he can and handball the rest to the actual contractor who engaged the building of the model in the first instance (Hattons) and even them people are not satisfied. Try doing that with Hornby or Bachmann and see where it gets you!

Personally I don't believe that there is a bias towards the manufacturers, by the mods of this forum, but an inability of a lot to look at the picture as a whole, including the implications of what adding and deleting certain features will do to the costs and feasibility of a model overall.

One of the bonuses of having the ear of the manufacturers and contractors ears on this forum has been that there have been changes made for the betterment of the model!

This is a good thing for us all, but remember that Not everything can be changed because "WE WANT"

 

Khris

[Edwardian]

The biggest issue I have seen on this thread is the same arguments put on what is wrong with the model and explanations given as to why there are not so any variants of the model , YET the arguing is going on and on like a broken record.

 

 

Khris

 

Not really, though.

 

Looking back I see that Miss Prism mentioned buffer packing on 13 December, to which I added a post,  and on the same day I queried the absent A-word.  Fat Lieutenant queried the outstanding points as he saw it on 15 December.  

 

The fact of the matter is that most of the posts of which you appear to complain proceed from people defending themselves against posters complaining about the fact that others have raised these issues.  That is where the mountain of posts come in; they are raised from an essentially inoffensive molehill.

 

I have made it clear that there is really no point in pursuing the points concerning the 4800 now that we know this is the production model.  It's over.  Fat Lieutenant has apologised for his tone.  Surely that should have satisfied everyone concerned.

 

What on earth impels you to bring this all up again?!?

 

By all means, have the Last Word, but please try not to succumb, yet again, to the vilification of anyone pointing up accuracy issues on an RTR model.

 

That's the only broken record I can hear.

 

For goodness sake let's let go of this one and go enjoy our Christmasses.

[Captain Kernow]

What they have never purported to represent is an off-the-shelf equivalent of the skilled kit-built or scratchbuilt model.

 

I am pretty much in agreement with all of what you wrote in that post, John, but I would also point out that even scratchbuilt and kit-built models can end up with compromises.

 

I see a good RTR model as basic 'raw material' for a (hopefully) even better model, even if the 'even better' simply means changing the buffers, fitting an ashpan or doing something with hand rails.

[kandc_au]

 

What on earth impels you to bring this all up again?!?

 

 

Edwardian, Not sure where you get bring it up again given I was responding to a post from last night my time......less than 24hrs in my book!

[81C]

How about you two (Edwardian & Kandc_au) tossing a coin to see who gets the last word in.

[No Decorum]

Despite all the exchanges, no-one seems to have picked up on Edwardian’s point that some of the models have ashpans and some do not. That would not seem to be a design error but an assembly error not picked up by QC. Is it too late to rectify, given that everything has been designed and tooled to accommodate ashpans?

[gwrrob]

I'm sure when Andy Y took his photos he took one of underneath. I'm sure if it's relevant he will post it in due course unless he's keeping it for the BRM review.

[Edwardian]

How about you two (Edwardian & Kandc_au) tossing a coin to see who gets the last word in.

 

How about we do the decent thing, apologise to the community for the heat of our posts, apologise for any offence the one has caused the other, acknowledge that, though we may disagree on certain issues, there are no hard feelings and that we will endeavour to be respectful of each other going forward?

 

I would subscribe to that, neatly leaving Khris to have the last word with my blessing!

 

We are, after all grown ups!

[lofty1966]

 

We are, after all grown ups!

I'm not. I am an middle aged 'child' still "playing with my trains" (and proud of it)!

[jjb1970]

Though if those are still quacking, I'd suggest they're a little underdone...

 

Good meat should always be served rare. Or blue. I had the embarrassment of taking my sister-in-law out to dinner at a very good restaurant in Brussels a few years ago and having to watch the waiter administer a stern rebuke to her for ordering a well done steak . Of course the waiter was quite right, where will it end if they let the philistines in and cater to the sort of riff raff that think incinerating good meat should be allowed?

[Clearwater]

Good meat should always be served rare. Or blue. I had the embarrassment of taking my sister-in-law out to dinner at a very good restaurant in Brussels a few years ago and having to watch the waiter administer a stern rebuke to her for ordering a well done steak . Of course the waiter was quite right, where will it end if they let the philistines in and cater to the sort of riff raff that think incinerating good meat should be allowed?

Quite - I still recall in horror a relative asking in a decent London restaurant how his roast beef would come and being told medium/rare asking if he could have it well done. Waiter said "we could brown it up under the grill for you but it will make it tougher" "yes please". I tipped well...

[jjb1970]

They do a nice variation of steak tatar in Belgium and the Netherlands (fillet americain) which is very good provided good beef is used.

[Edwardian]

Good meat should always be served rare. Or blue. I had the embarrassment of taking my sister-in-law out to dinner at a very good restaurant in Brussels a few years ago and having to watch the waiter administer a stern rebuke to her for ordering a well done steak . Of course the waiter was quite right, where will it end if they let the philistines in and cater to the sort of riff raff that think incinerating good meat should be allowed?

 

In a previous life, I lived in the Caribbean and our regular bar and restaurant had a rather rustic appearance that belied the fine French cuisine that was served.  The patron, Christophe, had Gallic sarcasm in spades.  On one occasion a tourist (loud shirt, shorts as evening wear, white socks neatly pulled up to mid-calf), with his family in tow, spent a long time studying the menu board, which was in French, before calling over Christophe.

 

Tourist: "Hey, err, can we get some burgers here?"

 

Christophe, with apologetic Gallic shrug: "I am afraid not, Sir, we are a French restaurant"

 

Tourist, after glancing again at the menu board:  "Do you serve any normal food?"

 

Christophe:  "Well, Sir, may I ask, do you like pizza?"

 

Tourist, brightening visibly: "Yeah sure, that would be great"

 

Christophe: "Good, then p1ss off next door"

[coachmann]

Topic exhausted; sausages can't be far away now......

[APOLLO]

Topic exhausted; sausages can't be far away now......

 

I fear the Wurst is yet to come !!!!!

 

Brit15