Kernow GWR steam rail motor

[Neal Ball]

14 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I've been poring over the various photographs in Lewis and elsewhere and can't find anything glaringly obvious.

The windows/panels look OK to me, even if there is a fraction of a mm error!

They're probably more accurate than a lot of other stuff for sale.

Interesting Keith…. I spent time today studying the photos and plans in the GWR carriages vol 1 and 2 and also can’t see anything.

 

For me it’s a stunning model.

[Mikkel]

I wonder if anyone can enlighten me on a little puzzle I've come across.  I'm considering Kernow's No. 63 in all-over 1908 brown, diagram O. Earlier, Kernow summarized the difference between dia R and O as follows:

 

On 09/10/2020 at 11:58, Kernow MRC said:

The tooling will allow for both the Diagram ‘O’ type and the Diagram ‘R’ type Steam Railmotors to be produced. The  most obvious differences between the diagram O and the diagram ‘R’ are the larger boiler room windows, double leaf passenger doors and ‘Fishbelly’ rather than ‘Equalising’ bogies.

 

This seems to be confirmed by a drawing of Lot 1088 Nos 53-58 and 61-72 (i.e. including No. 63)  on page 56 of Ken Gibbs' "The Steam Motors of the Great Western Railway", which shows the two larger (wider) boiler room windows.

 

However, the prototype photo of No. 63 on Mike Morant's website (here: https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-railcars/i-SFfpvCK/A, also shown on Kernow's site) shows it with the alternative window arrangement of the R diagram, i.e. two narrower windows + filler lid.

 

Am I missing something? Gibbs does not mention any rebuilding, but that book is not very technically oriented. Does the Lewis volume say something on this?

 

Edit: Perhaps the two sides were different?

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Mikkel

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

Edit: Perhaps the two sides were different?

 

Not in this case - the model is not being produced by KRM!😀

 

CJI.

[melmerby]

10 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Am I missing something? Gibbs does not mention any rebuilding, but that book is not very technically oriented. Does the Lewis volume say something on this?

 

Edit: Perhaps the two sides were different?

Lewis has the same photo that is on Morant's page and says the filler cover is a later addition.

 

(Photo credited to AG Ellis, Cty. RC Riley.)

[Mikkel]

Thanks for that.

 

So, the prototype photo on Morant's page shows No. 63 with narrow boiler room windows and a filler cover, in what according to the caption is 1908-12 all-brown. And the Kernow MRC Model shows No. 63 with wide boiler room windows and no filler cover, in 1908-12 all brown.

 

That's worrying, but the model is not necessarily wrong. If for example the changes were made in 1910, the model would show it in 1908-10 condition. Or the caption with Morant's photo is wrong and that photo actually shows 1912-22 lake livery, with the changes made during that period.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Mikkel
To clarify

[melmerby]

14 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Or the caption with Morant's photo is wrong and that photo actually shows 1912-22 lake livery, with the changes made during that period.

Don't forget that the new red lake (even the brown is referred to as lake) was officially introduced in 1912 but it wouldn't've happened instantly.

Brown vehicles would still be seen for several years, in the same way that not all passenger stock got the all brown paint job, zome going straight from the pre 1908 to post 1912 ivery.

In Lewis there's a picture of 71 probably summer 1913 at Penzance in lined brown with a filler cap.

 

BTW the picture of 62 at Oxford shows that the livery is incomplete, there is no "GWR" or "Luggage" on the waist panelling.

Edited November 14, 2022 by melmerby
corrected 1913 for 2013

[woodenhead]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

In Lewis there's a picture of 71 probably summer 2013 at Penzance in lined brown with a filler cap.

 

That lasted well!

[Mikkel]

9 hours ago, melmerby said:

Don't forget that the new red lake (even the brown is referred to as lake) was officially introduced in 1912 but it wouldn't've happened instantly.

Brown vehicles would still be seen for several years, in the same way that not all passenger stock got the all brown paint job, zome going straight from the pre 1908 to post 1912 ivery.

In Lewis there's a picture of 71 probably summer 2013 at Penzance in lined brown with a filler cap.

 

BTW the picture of 62 at Oxford shows that the livery is incomplete, there is no "GWR" or "Luggage" on the waist panelling.

 

Yes, good point.

 

Regarding the seemingly incomplete livery in Morant's photo, yesterday I found another photo of No. 63 on Flickr. It has  the GWR in the waist panel and if you blow it up big there are traces of "Luggage" too.

 

GWR steam rail motor no. 63 by Peter Francis, on Flickr

 

Whether this is brown or red Lake is hard to say. In principle the brown variant had two GWR's in the waist panels off-set to the sides  (but not consistently and it dependend on door arrangements), whereas the red Lake had just one GWR at the center.

 

But note the filler cover, which is different yet again from the Morant photo.  In Hollywood movies they always say "People change". So did rail motors!

 

 

[Miss Prism]

I think the Flickr pic of 63 is in crimson because there is only one G W R at the waist, and the below-waist panelling has started to be modified. SRMs got mods and repaints fairly regularly because of the number of works visits needed to maintain the drive bogies. The economics of SRMs looked good on paper initially, but in practice it was a very different matter because of the downtime in the works.

[The Stationmaster]

15 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

I think the Flickr pic of 63 is in crimson because there is only one G W R at the waist, and the below-waist panelling has started to be modified. SRMs got mods and repaints fairly regularly because of the number of works visits needed to maintain the drive bogies. The economics of SRMs looked good on paper initially, but in practice it was a very different matter because of the downtime in the works.

Don't forget there were slightly in excess of 10% more power bogie/boiler units than there were coach bodies in the railmotor fleet.  However the bodies would in any case be more subject to more dirtying and abrasion than most coach bodies because the vehicle had to be coaled.

 

One thing which seems to have mitigated against the railmotors was their success and the need to replace them with autotrains - something which was happening prior to the Great War

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, woodenhead said:

That lasted well!

In my Dreams!😃

 

Now corrected.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

 

One thing which seems to have mitigated against the railmotors was their success and the need to replace them with autotrains - something which was happening prior to the Great War

Same thing happened with some Diesel Railcar services, where they couldn't cope with the number of passengers so were replaced with a Steam Loco plus several coaches.

[Michael Hodgson]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

However the bodies would in any case be more subject to more dirtying and abrasion than most coach bodies because the vehicle had to be coaled.

Presumably not at a cenotaph coaling plant

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Presumably not at a cenotaph coaling plant

Undoubtedly.  However I do now of an instance on another part of BR (obviously) where an EE Type 4 was duly 'coaled' under such an installation.

[gwrrob]

Had an email today encouraging me to pay for my railmotor by the end of the year to gain the £10 discount on the RRP. Delivery is advised as April/May 2023. Paying in advance speeds up the process without Kernow originally asking for a deposit on the model.

[57xx]

I've just seen that email in my Inbox, order placed and paid for.

[Dana Ashdown]

On 14/11/2022 at 04:28, Mikkel said:

In principle the brown variant had two GWR's in the waist panels off-set to the sides  (but not consistently and it dependend on door arrangements), whereas the red Lake had just one GWR at the center.

That's something I noticed with Kernow's No.63. Knowing that the 1908 brown livery should have two GWRs in the waist panel, I wondered if Kernow had missed something.

 

By the way, does anyone think that the Crimson Lake is a little too bright, or is it just me?

[melmerby]

Some more info about 63 courtesy of Lewis.

It acquired protection bars in the driver's windows in Nov 1912, It was allocated to Trowbridge Nov 1912 following a Works visit.

The Crimson Lake livery did not start until around Sept 1912.

63 was only at Oxford between 17 Jan 1910 to 13 June 1911 with a visit to Swindon works in that period

 

Two different filler caps and no bars, so when were the pictures taken?

 

Edited November 16, 2022 by melmerby

[Miss Prism]

I think there may be at least one bar in the later pic of 63. Window reflections at that angle can be confusing. It still has internal sandboxes and probably still has a small bunker at that stage.

 

 

 

[DavidR]

With regard to payment:  I've been waiting 8 years for this item, so it was 'heat or eat'  (or Railmotor). Guess which one I chose? Yup, you're right.

[Mikkel]

On 16/11/2022 at 20:29, melmerby said:

Some more info about 63 courtesy of Lewis.

It acquired protection bars in the driver's windows in Nov 1912, It was allocated to Trowbridge Nov 1912 following a Works visit.

The Crimson Lake livery did not start until around Sept 1912.

63 was only at Oxford between 17 Jan 1910 to 13 June 1911 with a visit to Swindon works in that period

 

Two different filler caps and no bars, so when were the pictures taken?

 

 

According to Ken Gibb's "Steam Motors of the the Great Western Railway" No 63 was built April 1906. It would presumably have been painted choc & cream at that point.

 

According to the superbly edited (and brilliantly conceived 😜) gwr.org.uk website: “In general, a coach livery pre-WWI was expected to last approximately 10–12 years before repainting was necessary.”  

 

Of course, SRMs might have had shorter paint cycles during their heyday, especially if there was much soot around. Even so, there is the possibility that No. 63 was never actually painted all-brown, but instead skipped straight to red lake, and that this is what Mike Morant’s photo of it shows.

 

Alternatively I'm considering No. 61 in “the fully-lined livery carried from 1903 until 1908” as KMRC put it. Worth keeping in mind that the first diagram O (No. 53) wasn't actually built until September 1905. No. 61 itself was built March 1906. 

 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Mikkel
Typo

[57xx]

It's only £22.50 you've had to save each year.

[tomparryharry]

I haven't ordered one (yet) but first impressions are looking good; very good. I'd like to see one 'in the flesh'  before the ordering is done, but nonetheless, so far, so good.

 

Slightly off-topic.  Did Kernow propose a trailer car?

 

My Lewis volumes & RCTS are currently packed away, so please accept my sincere apologies if I've upset anyone.

 

It looks that the wait has been worth it; well done Kernow.

 

Ian.

 

[St. Simon]

24 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

I'd like to see one 'in the flesh'  before the ordering is done, but nonetheless, so far, so good.

Hi,

 

I believe you’ll be able to see the Livery Samples at Warley next weekend.

 

Simon

[Neal Ball]

27 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

....Slightly off-topic.  Did Kernow propose a trailer car?....

 

Ian.

 

 

I asked the question a while back Ian and sadly the answer is No. Lets hope @Graham_Muz has changed his mind in the meantime 😎