Hattons announce 14xx / 48xx / 58xx

[Porcy Mane]

You obviously don't live in Britain where whilst driving, the merest hint of lifting a cup to your mouth or taking a bite from a sandwich, if observed by an officer of the law could result in an on the spot fine or a court appearance.   

[Budgie]

You obviously don't live in Britain where whilst driving, the merest hint of lifting a cup to your mouth or taking a bite from a sandwich, if observed by an officer of the law could result in an on the spot fine or a court appearance.   

That doesn't apply to the passengers. If the driver is that hungry or thirsty (s)he should stop somewhere to eat or drink.

[Porcy Mane]

That doesn't apply to the passengers. If the driver is that hungry or thirsty (s)he should stop somewhere to eat or drink.

 

Of course not but as a responsible passenger (invited guest if you will) I would never dream of leading a driver unto temptation.

[brian777999]

Personally, I'd rather they binned the "working" buffers on all r-t-r models and put on accurately proportioned fixed ones.

 

 

Are the existing buffers too large or too small in your opinion ?

[lofty1966]

You obviously don't live in Britain where whilst driving, the merest hint of lifting a cup to your mouth or taking a bite from a sandwich, if observed by an officer of the law could result in an on the spot fine or a court appearance.

Used too ol'Froot!

I know Plod like you to keep both hands on the wheel.

Seem to recall someone got done for taking a bite of an apple a while back.

[Dunsignalling]

Are the existing buffers too large or too small in your opinion ?

The walls of plastic buffer housings have to be made thicker than scale or they wouldn't last five minutes, the choice then lies between making the diameter of the rams under-scale (as here) or making the whole thing too big. 

 

The only way to make working buffers properly to 4mm scale is for all the parts to be metal.

 

John

[DavidH]

Used too ol'Froot!

I know Plod like you to keep both hands on the wheel.

Seem to recall someone got done for taking a bite of an apple a while back.

Was it a big apple?

[lofty1966]

Was it a big apple?

Maybe it was a New Yorkie bar? <groan>

I'm here all week , folks !

[Porcy Mane]

The only way to make working buffers properly to 4mm scale is for all the parts to be metal.

 

 I think it may be more of the buffer housing moulding not retaining it's shape and being able to release it from the mould without damage if scale thickness is attempted.

 

I've successfully thinned Heljan buffer heads, then beefed up the shank with drilled 2.5 mm styrene rod whilst thinning out the buffer housing walls. They are amply strong enough  for heavy shunting.

 

 

P

[Fat Lieutenant]

Hi all,

 

To cover a few points that have been discussed over the last few days.

 

Bunker steps. Contrary to what has been discussed, it would have been a lot more than 'another cab side' to include these. The tooling currently has four different cabs to accommodate differences with top feed connections etc and another two (at least, depending on which locomotives you choose) to accomodate the 'as built' version. During the R&D stage we discussed the inclusion and omission of a number of detail options (including some of the others highlighted above) however once tooling options are added the production cost shoots up dramatically and we have to make a decision on what to include. With bunker-fitted steps fitted to examples of all the liveries we wanted to portray, we chose to not include a stepless model to reduce the production cost and therefore retail cost.  As said a few months back, in a perfect world we'd personally love to create every minor variation and example in every project we do but we have to balance our modeller heads with commercial heads, although we do understand that this can cause some disappointment.

 

For reference, we didn't laser scan the 14xx. Our research has involved (but not limited to!) a full measurement and photo survey of No.1466 at Didcot with contributions from the three other surviving locomotives, as well as drawings and hundreds of archive photographs and not forgetting the contributions made by users on here (and 3rd party support elsewhere). As a volunteer on a heritage railway vehicle restoration myself, we're aware of the various pitfalls that can be in place with works modifications, unofficial 'bodges' and post-preservation amendments which can individualise pretty much every loco, coach or wagon of the same type so we're eagle eyed on watching out for such occurrences.

 

Regarding release, we've had confirmation that the first two should leave China on Friday and will be air freighted to the UK which should take around a week. These releases will be H1404 and H1409. The remaining models will then arrive with us in two batches early in the New Year and as soon as dates arrive, I'll ensure they're available on here. The first batch will be the remaining clean locomotives, with the weathered examples following these.

 

Ahead of the main batch, we've had a couple of the production run of the first two locos sent through, which are currently clocking up the miles on my desktop rolling road - but not before putting them through our photo studio...

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

 

H1404_H1409_2.jpg

H1404_H1409_4.jpg

H1404_H1409_5.jpg

H1404_H1409_6.jpg

H1409_autocoach.jpg

 

This proves something I have long suspected, people will "like" any pretty picture.  Uncritically.

 

We appear to be near release.  It is clear from these pictures that there are outstanding issues.

 

- The ashpan.  Where is it?  It has been mentioned several times.  Why have we had no response from Hattons?

 

We are told simply that 1466 has been carefully measured.  Does it not have an ashpan?  I think that most steam locomotives tend to need one.  Where is yours?

 

The issue of liveries has not really been addressed:

 

- Given that the pre-war liveries appear to pre-date the physical changes that the tooling represents, can Hattons show us the evidence they have of their tooling matching all the livery/identity options announced?

 

- Can Hattons give the dates for these versions?  It is all very well saying, "we did not  tool for 'as built' because one tooling can support all liveries", but it does not follow that the chosen tooling can support the dates those liveries were applied!  

 

If the tooling represents physical changes made in, say, 1942, the model is no more capable of representing an earlier period just because it wears an earlier livery that it may, or may not, still have been wearing in 1942.

 

- It is frankly disingenuous to dismiss the 'as built' condition as "every minor variation".  Is it not much more likely that the curious and apparent miss-match of early livery and late condition that Hattons has chosen to model is a "minor variation"?

 

- What about the handrails on the cab?  The rail should end at the knob, not stick through it.  Obvious from the photographs. Perhaps this can/will be fixed, but given the imminence of the release, perhaps we can ask for an assurance that it will be?

Edited December 15, 2016 by Fat Lieutenant

[cctransuk]

This proves something I have long suspected, people will "like" any pretty picture.  Uncritically.

 

We appear to be near release.  It is clear from these pictures that there are outstanding issues.

 

- The ashpan.  Where is it?  It has been mentioned several times.  Why have we had no response from Hattons?

 

We are told simply that 1466 has been carefully measured.  Does it not have an ashpan?  I think that most steam locomotives tend to need one.  Where is yours?

 

The issue of liveries has not really been addressed:

 

- Given that the pre-war liveries appear to pre-date the physical changes that the tooling represents, can Hattons show us the evidence they have of their tooling matching all the livery/identity options announced?

 

- Can Hattons give the dates for these versions?  It is all very well saying, "we did not  tool for 'as built' because one tooling can support all liveries", but it does not follow that the chosen tooling can support the dates those liveries were applied!  

 

If the tooling represents physical changes made in, say, 1942, the model is no more capable of representing an earlier period just because it wears an earlier livery that it may, or may not, still have been wearing in 1942.

 

- It is frankly disingenuous to dismiss the 'as built' condition as "every minor variation".  Is it not much more likely that the curious and apparent miss-match of early livery and late condition that Hattons has chosen to model is a "minor variation"?

 

- What about the handrails on the cab?  The rail should end at the knob, not stick through it.  Obvious from the photographs. Perhaps this can/will be fixed, but given the imminence of the release, perhaps we can ask for an assurance that it will be?

 

Here we go again - just can't leave it alone !

 

But I for one am not rising to the bait this time.

 

At the end of the day, you'll get what Hatton's provide or do without - simples!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[tomparryharry]

I'd suggest a respectful question to either DJ, or Hattons, to see if there is indeed an ashpan, would be in order.

 

Kicking off on here makes us look like a bunch of yokels. After all, no-one has seen the sales items yet. Much wailing, and knashing of teeth. Letters to the Times!

 

I'd ask first, then, if not, form a pressure group! take to the streets! Civil disobedience! They can't do this to us!

 

It's enough to make one turn North Eastern.....

 

Ian

Edited December 15, 2016 by tomparryharry

[Andy Y]

This proves something I have long suspected, people will "like" any pretty picture.  Uncritically.

 

 

You do seem to have an abrasive style so I will ask if you can rein that approach in please. If you are correct you have choices whether you buy or not; as does anyone who finds the general appearance pleases them.

 

I have a feeling we've met in a previous life.

[81C]

You do seem to have an abrasive style so I will ask if you can rein that approach in please. If you are correct you have choices whether you buy or not; as does anyone who finds the general appearance pleases them.

 

I have a feeling we've met in a previous life.

Is there anybody there knock once for yes twice for no.

[Edwardian]

Well, my abrasiveness detector suggests that there has been abrasiveness on both sides of the debate.  Unless, of course, there is some deeming provision in the site rules that I have missed to the effect that discourtesies are fine if pro-manufacture/retailer.

 

I can only regret any loss of temper here, no matter from whom.  Please let's keep it civilised.

 

Nevertheless, I would be genuinely interested in answers from Hattons to the questions raised by Fat Lieutenant.

 

At the risk of provoking an ill-tempered response lacking in moderation, are we not permitted to check that the handrails will be properly finished and that the model will have an ash pan?  

 

Can it be so egregious an offence to point out the lack of an ash pan?

 

Should I feel nervous and strangely apologetic for daring to mention it?

 

I'd appreciate some comfort from Hattons, not least because I want to feel the necessary degree of confidence in the pre-orders I have placed for Kings from the same stable.

[Andy Y]

Well we've been through numberplategate; I had reservations about it myself and discussed it with Hatton's. I'm perfectly prepared to say at this point that now I can see the finished product any issues on that score are not a problem in reality when looking at the model in the flesh with normal eyesight. We've all seen images that are massively magnified but even looking at such images at this stage it has more of the appearance (if discernible) of a shadow from a raised plate. Maybe it doesn't look as good on the weathered ones I posted pictures of previously but on these review samples it doesn't look half bad.

 

Now we have ashpangate; I can't recall anyone mentioning it at CAD stages (forgive me if I missed that) and as the picture above is of a review sample I think you can take it as read you won't have an ashpan. The question to ask from the angle shown above is "Does it have any substantial detriment?". I don't feel it does to be honest; if you only look at your models at rail level, from the side, against a plain white backscene then it may matter and you may feel sufficiently motivated to make your own.

 

Knobgate seems the most ridiculous of all; there's an easy cure for it if it offends.

 

Is it a better product than we've had before? Yes; there's a mass of very well-produced detail, all of that comes at a cost and commercial decisions have to be made of how much detail and how many variations can be accommodated. If a model offends me I don't buy it and I move on to worrying about more pressing problems in life.

 

Oh, and it runs and performs very well.

 

There has been one incredibly irritating point; the cosmetic coupling will dismantle itself if you think about touching it or look at it in slightly the wrong way. I can't believe how much time I wasted arguing with the little ****** so that massive, huge, insurmountable problem will stimulate the torch and pitchfork into action I am sure.

[90rob]

 

 

Oh, and it runs and performs very well.

 

That is the bit I was waiting to hear! Order placed.

[gwrrob]

That is the bit I was waiting to hear! Order placed.

 

Well we've been through numberplategate; I had reservations about it myself and discussed it with Hatton's. I'm perfectly prepared to say at this point that now I can see the finished product any issues on that score are not a problem in reality when looking at the model in the flesh with normal eyesight. We've all seen images that are massively magnified but even looking at such images at this stage it has more of the appearance (if discernible) of a shadow from a raised plate. Maybe it doesn't look as good on the weathered ones I posted pictures of previously but on these review samples it doesn't look half bad.

 

 

Now we have ashpangate; I can't recall anyone mentioning it at CAD stages (forgive me if I missed that) and as the picture above is of a review sample I think you can take it as read you won't have an ashpan. The question to ask from the angle shown above is "Does it have any substantial detriment?". I don't feel it does to be honest; if you only look at your models at rail level, from the side, against a plain white backscene then it may matter and you may feel sufficiently motivated to make your own.

 

Knobgate seems the most ridiculous of all; there's an easy cure for it if it offends.

 

Is it a better product than we've had before? Yes; there's a mass of very well-produced detail, all of that comes at a cost and commercial decisions have to be made of how much detail and how many variations can be accommodated. If a model offends me I don't buy it and I move on to worrying about more pressing problems in life.

 

Oh, and it runs and performs very well.

 

There has been one incredibly irritating point; the cosmetic coupling will dismantle itself if you think about touching it or look at it in slightly the wrong way. I can't believe how much time I wasted arguing with the little ****** so that massive, huge, insurmountable problem will stimulate the torch and pitchfork into action I am sure.

 

When can you pop round to give it a proper run then Andy ?

Edited December 15, 2016 by Andy Y

[Andy Y]

When can you pop round to give it a proper run then Andy ?

 

You know I would if I could.

 

If a drain cover on the M6 hadn't collapsed on Tuesday evening it could possibly have happened but that's life.

[81C]

Andy please could answer one question is the photo in post 895 of production or pre-production models.

[Andy Y]

Andy please could answer one question is the photo in post 895 of production or pre-production models.

 

These are the production models.

[Edwardian]

Well we've been through numberplategate; I had reservations about it myself and discussed it with Hatton's. I'm perfectly prepared to say at this point that now I can see the finished product any issues on that score are not a problem in reality when looking at the model in the flesh with normal eyesight. We've all seen images that are massively magnified but even looking at such images at this stage it has more of the appearance (if discernible) of a shadow from a raised plate. Maybe it doesn't look as good on the weathered ones I posted pictures of previously but on these review samples it doesn't look half bad.

 

Now we have ashpangate; I can't recall anyone mentioning it at CAD stages (forgive me if I missed that) and as the picture above is of a review sample I think you can take it as read you won't have an ashpan. The question to ask from the angle shown above is "Does it have any substantial detriment?". I don't feel it does to be honest; if you only look at your models at rail level, from the side, against a plain white backscene then it may matter and you may feel sufficiently motivated to make your own.

 

Knobgate seems the most ridiculous of all; there's an easy cure for it if it offends.

 

Is it a better product than we've had before? Yes; there's a mass of very well-produced detail, all of that comes at a cost and commercial decisions have to be made of how much detail and how many variations can be accommodated. If a model offends me I don't buy it and I move on to worrying about more pressing problems in life.

 

Oh, and it runs and performs very well.

 

There has been one incredibly irritating point; the cosmetic coupling will dismantle itself if you think about touching it or look at it in slightly the wrong way. I can't believe how much time I wasted arguing with the little ****** so that massive, huge, insurmountable problem will stimulate the torch and pitchfork into action I am sure.

 

People are free to take a view about what, shall we say "issues"?, do or do not bother them and affect the decision to purchase.  It is preferable if that is an informed decision and I do regret a noticeable trend to slam down reasoned points with unreasoned objections.

 

I respect your comments.  You offer the argument that the ash pan omission might not be noticeable from elevated view points.  It will either bother a given prospective purchaser or it will not.  

 

I don't like it when the opposing point of view is disparaged, however, so I regret the choice of the term "ridiculous" with regard to the handrails.  Some may think "oh well, no matter, I can clip them flush".  Others may feel that a detail like that should have been executed properly in the first place on a modern-standard model and, that, really, no one should need to make such corrections.  Again, it is a choice we have, but I think that both viewpoints are perfectly respectable and I cannot be happy with the idea that one should be disparaged as ridiculous.

 

I would not, for instance, disparage your point of view regarding couplings on the basis that surely you could secure them with a spot of glue, or whatever.  Your point is nonetheless valid.  The issue you identify either will or will not influence prospective purchasers, but should not be dismissed.

 

It is certainly a model with strengths and not without considerable charm.  The comment has been made already that the 'face' is particularly well captured.

 

There is more to it, for me, than the decision over whether or not this model "offends", however.  It is the first of two GW locos from this partnership.  We must judge each release on its merits, and not pre-judge them, true, but issues such as missing off an essential part of a locomotive (ash pan) or failing to achieve a correct and professional finish to a detail (handrail knobs), does, I am afraid, raise a question mark over what we might be asked to accept in the case of the King. 

 

Happy to keep optimistic and open minded, but some watch does need to be kept on the mistakes and omissions that, seemingly, can plague modern RTR releases.  

[amdaley]

Well we've been through numberplategate; I had reservations about it myself and discussed it with Hatton's. I'm perfectly prepared to say at this point that now I can see the finished product any issues on that score are not a problem in reality when looking at the model in the flesh with normal eyesight. We've all seen images that are massively magnified but even looking at such images at this stage it has more of the appearance (if discernible) of a shadow from a raised plate. Maybe it doesn't look as good on the weathered ones I posted pictures of previously but on these review samples it doesn't look half bad.

 

 

Now we have ashpangate; I can't recall anyone mentioning it at CAD stages (forgive me if I missed that) and as the picture above is of a review sample I think you can take it as read you won't have an ashpan. The question to ask from the angle shown above is "Does it have any substantial detriment?". I don't feel it does to be honest; if you only look at your models at rail level, from the side, against a plain white backscene then it may matter and you may feel sufficiently motivated to make your own.

 

Knobgate seems the most ridiculous of all; there's an easy cure for it if it offends.

 

Is it a better product than we've had before? Yes; there's a mass of very well-produced detail, all of that comes at a cost and commercial decisions have to be made of how much detail and how many variations can be accommodated. If a model offends me I don't buy it and I move on to worrying about more pressing problems in life.

 

Oh, and it runs and performs very well.

 

There has been one incredibly irritating point; the cosmetic coupling will dismantle itself if you think about touching it or look at it in slightly the wrong way. I can't believe how much time I wasted arguing with the little ****** so that massive, huge, insurmountable problem will stimulate the torch and pitchfork into action I am sure.

 

You were doing so well up to that point.

Then you had to go & spoil it all be telling us it actually runs as well 

It seems to be a beautiful model but then what the hell would I know.

[90rob]

 

 

Oh, and it runs and performs very well.

 

 

 

Well I suppose I was always going to go for at least one anyway, but it would be nice to know a bit more about its gearing/slow running capabilities...

[Andy Y]

People are free to take a view about what, shall we say "issues"?, do or do not bother them and affect the decision to purchase.  It is preferable if that is an informed decision and I do regret a noticeable trend to slam down reasoned points with unreasoned objections.

 

I do not have a problem with 'reasoned points' and I don't think others do but it just seems, particularly of late, that I hear a continual high-pitched whining noise across so many product topics but there again maybe I'm developing tinnitus? You may feel that unjust but I know it's a cause of other tinnitus sufferers choosing not to read the site.