OO gauge GWR Mogul and Prairie

[Neal Ball]

12 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Not impressed by the colouring of the garter crest.

 

My guess is they were pre production photos….. Looking down the list of photos that Kernow have for each loco, they still include the CAD images for available stock.

 

As Robin has said, hopefully Chris Nevard will be photographing everything.

[gwrrob]

10 hours ago, B15nac said:

There on eBay also 

 

Better photos provided by Cheltenham Models.

 

 

[Harlequin]

I have an uneasy feeling about that firebox...

 

Most photos of the prototypes suggest a much flatter top surface but sometimes you can see something like the Dapol rendition. E.g.:

 

The thing is, I think we're seeing the inwards taper of the firebox sides in that photo, not so much the backwards taper of the top...

 

It will be fascinating to see one in the flesh, see what it really looks like from different angles and compare it with the previous batch and other locos.

 

P.S. I have been making a CAD model of a Small Metro (Medium Metro actually) and I started off from weight diagrams before I had access to a frame plan. The weight diagrams introduced many mistakes that had to be tediously corrected later.

 

Edited February 3 by Harlequin

[No Decorum]

15 hours ago, melmerby said:

Khaki looks more like cream emulsion paint!☹️

The point is frequently made that we cannot be sure of the exact shade of colour on a loco from a century ago. However, certain practical considerations can help. Take Oxford Rail’s GER grey N7 as an example. The number is painted large in order for it to be easily read but it does not contrast well. That would indicate that the shade of grey is too light. The same might be said about Heljan’s GNR grey O2 judging by samples seen so far. On the khaki Mogul, black numerals  rather than white would contrast better with the shade used, indicating that the khaki should be a lot darker. Consider as well that khaki was intended to be an unobtrusive colour. Hi-vis yellow would be obliging to German pilots!

[Pteremy]

3 hours ago, No Decorum said:

Consider as well that khaki was intended to be an unobtrusive colour. Hi-vis yellow would be obliging to German pilots!

 

A quick google reveals examples of 'khaki' that are sandy coloured, like the colour Dapol have used. But I agree it is not obviously a good choice of colour for North West European use rather than, say, in the Middle East. Surely the correct shade of khaki must be documented somewhere - it cannot have been unique to ROD locomotives?

[Steamport Southport]

Khaki is a specific colour. Would have been the colour that came out of tins for painting vehicles and tanks!

 

There was also Light Khaki, Dark Khaki and Khaki Green (sometimes referred to as Khaki Drab). All proper colours, not just random names.

 

If you want the exact shade then probably worth asking the Tank Museum or Imperial War Museum. But Humbrol 26 looks about right which also seems to match the livery of 5322 and what Bachmann used for the fictitious City.

 

 

However, is the Dapol rendition "too light" or one of those where it's dependant on lighting as this photo of 5322 makes it look much lighter than other photos.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/camperdown/5371031780

 

Maybe one for waiting to see what it's like in the flesh rather than on a screen.

 

 

 

Jason

[gwrrob]

Here's the GWR green version 5320 courtesy of Cheltenham Models.

 

 

[The Great Bear]

I was hoping the GWR post war one would have outside steam pipes... a lot, if not most, 43xx had them fitted by this period I think? Probably will succomb and fit ones from 247 Developments, though. Or get one in black and do in wartime black livery, the smokebox door I recall is a separate part.

[gwrrob]

6 minutes ago, The Great Bear said:

I was hoping the GWR post war one would have outside steam pipes... a lot, if not most, 43xx had them fitted by this period I think? Probably will succomb and fit ones from 247 Developments, though. Or get one in black and do in wartime black livery, the smokebox door I recall is a separate part.

 

The smokebox door is/was available as a spare and we’ll need it by the looks of it as Dapol have fitted the BR one on her.

Edited February 3 by gwrrob
Spilling

[The Great Bear]

7 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

The smokebox door is/was available as a spare and we’ll need it by the looks of it as Dapol have fitted the BR one on her.

Thanks for pointing that out, Rob.

[Mikkel]

Inspired by Al's recent blog post, I've been wondering whether I really needed a new 43xx, or whether my trusty old Bachmann version was enough.

 

Here is No. 4301 in early form at Swindon (as posted earlier):

 

 

Here's the new Dapol 43xx (thanks Rob):

 

Here's a shot I took today of my old Bachmann version, which really is more of a 63xx I now realize:

 

 

And here is Dapol's earlier 63xx - mirrored to allow cab comparison:

 

(Personal conclusion: Dapol 43xx for pregrouping work, but old friend Bachmann 43xx gets to stay for grouping sessions, albeit with some mods. Everyone wins 🙂).

 

 

[BenL]

Looking at the images in Mikkel’s post has made me realise I had never fully appreciated the extent of the difference between the earlier higher, more curved roofs and the later, lower flatter ones. Does anyone know when the change in style occurred, and were there any conversions from older to newer style?

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, The Great Bear said:

I was hoping the GWR post war one would have outside steam pipes... a lot, if not most, 43xx had them fitted by this period I think?

 

The pipe demographics are difficult to pin down. Not only were the new cylinder sets (for outside pipes) fitted very gradually (between 1928 and 1958), slightly less than half the class were so fitted.

 

 

[Miss Prism]

2 hours ago, gwrrob said:

The smokebox door is/was available as a spare and we’ll need it by the looks of it as Dapol have fitted the BR one on her.

 

6336 (in GREAT WESTERN), from the first Dapol batch, had the correct door, but all the first batch seem to have disappeared from the Dapol site. (Not even listed as 'sold out'.)

 

[Hal Nail]

7 hours ago, BenL said:

Does anyone know when the change in style occurred, and were there any conversions from older to newer style?

The first batch of 20 were different to the next lot which were 9 inches longer, so the photo of 4301 above isn't strictly relevant to this model.

 

For me the Dapol cab roof looks too tall relative to the firebox, which may be due to the slope already discussed.

[gwrrob]

13 hours ago, The Great Bear said:

I was hoping the GWR post war one would have outside steam pipes... a lot, if not most, 43xx had them fitted by this period I think? 

 

Agreed but there are a few choices for those without and late fitted in the RCTS part nine booklet.

[gwrrob]

13 hours ago, The Great Bear said:

Thanks for pointing that out, Rob.

 

https://www.petersspares.com/p/Dapol-115052-43xx-mogul-oo-gauge-smokebox-door

[cctransuk]

3 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

https://www.petersspares.com/p/Dapol-115052-43xx-mogul-oo-gauge-smokebox-door

 

If Dapol have fitted an incorrect smokebox door, they should be supplying the correct one FOC.

 

Why should purchasers be shelling-out significant money to correct Dapol's error?

 

CJI.

[Oldddudders]

5 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

If Dapol have fitted an incorrect smokebox door, they should be supplying the correct one FOC.

 

Why should purchasers be shelling-out significant money to correct Dapol's error?

 

CJI.

To get an earlier, hassle-free result? Being right is not the only criterion in life. 

[gwrrob]

16 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

If Dapol have fitted an incorrect smokebox door, they should be supplying the correct one FOC.

 

Why should purchasers be shelling-out significant money to correct Dapol's error?

 

CJI.

 

Dapol have form in doing a post war GWR model like this, working maybe from a photo of the period. They don’t communicate so good luck in getting one from them.

[cctransuk]

26 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

 

Dapol have form in doing a post war GWR model like this, working maybe from a photo of the period. They don’t communicate so good luck in getting one from them.

 

True - the last Dapol model that I bought was their 'Western' - which was / is excellent.

 

However, I'm in no hurry to buy anything else from them; if I need any of their railway kits I go to Ebay for the Airfix originals.

 

I cannot understand why a company would allow itself to develop such a negative image when, with a little more effort, it could be so different!

 

CJI.

[Fredo]

Hi,

Looking  forward to getting your Mogul 5330. What shed plate will the loco be carrying and what type of tender? I had intended to renumber it as 5322 but that is dependent on the type of tender.

Thanks Fred

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, The Great Bear said:

I was hoping the GWR post war one would have outside steam pipes... a lot, if not most, 43xx had them fitted by this period I think? Probably will succomb and fit ones from 247 Developments, though. Or get one in black and do in wartime black livery, the smokebox door I recall is a separate part.

From a quick scan down te RCTS lists it looks as if most of the post-war survivors had outside steam pipes although a number without a outside steam pipes survived in that state until wthdrawal in the 1950s.

 

Conversion to outside steam pipes, with the related renewal of the cylinders, began in 1931/32 according to the RCTS lists but seems to have been done very slowly over the first few years.  Virtually all of the  engines (4300 -4320) with the original short frames/cab were withdrawn in the late 1930s but 4320 survived, in original form, until the beginning of 1949 while 4303 with outside steam pipes lasted until late 1952

 

 At a quick count 55 engines without outside steam pipes remained in traffic after WWII with a handful making it to the early 1960s.  A maximum of c.167 were running with outside steam pipes post WWII but of these 90 were converted post war including those donen in the 1950s;  25 of them had been done by the GWR prior to nationalisation.  Thus in the GWR post war period the number with outside steam pipes a was c.102, including the ones converted in that period.

 

So for post war GWR, by the end, those with outside steam pipes almost outnumbered by 2 to 1 those which didn't have outside steam pipes

[coeurdelyon]

On 04/02/2024 at 10:04, cctransuk said:

 

If Dapol have fitted an incorrect smokebox door, they should be supplying the correct one FOC.

 

Why should purchasers be shelling-out significant money to correct Dapol's error?

 

CJI.

 

[coeurdelyon]

Hi,

FYI The smoke box door fitted to 5320 in G W R livery is taken from a photograph showing no smoke box door with a number plate and without outside steam pipes, so we are correct and no replacement door is necessary

See attached photograph