Warley National Model Railway Exhibition 2018 - 24th and 25th November

[caradoc]

I have never exhibited (and probably never will) a layout of any size at a model railway exhibition, so I would like to thank all those who do and did, at Warley and for that matter elsewhere. This year was my third visit to Warley and, just like the previous two, I did not get to see everything, or spend long enough watching the layouts - and I missed Thornbury Hill completely, although fortunately I have seen it before. Regarding Lime St (which I have also seen before), it is a huge triumph of both ambition and ability; I did take a look but as others have said it was too busy (with people) to see much. Given that it depicts a major terminus served by a four-track approach, operating to a sequence timetable would ensure that something is moving most if not all of the time - Is this how it is run ? Regardless, the logistics of transporting and running such a large layout has to be appreciated.

[Mr.S.corn78]

No, nothing can be parked in there while the show is open. The NEC charge Warley for the amount of space in the Hall they use, so parking vehicles in the unused space during the Show would incur an extra charge.

 

I didn't say they parked vehicles whilst the show is open I said during set up and pack down.

[Barry O]

No, nothing can be parked in there while the show is open. The NEC charge Warley for the amount of space in the Hall they use, so parking vehicles in the unused space during the Show would incur an extra charge.

Sorry that isn't a 100% correct. You can park your trailer/van in there BUT you have to pay the NEC for the privilege of doing it. I thinks Squires had 3 trailers and 3 vans in there this year.

 

The NEC do measure the amount of space "used" in the void..before charging for it.

 

Of course the S4 Society or EM Gauge Society or the O Gauge Guild could always put on a show in the Void to showcase some of their layouts... and they could charge everyone for the privilege of seeing their show within a show.

 

As Chris M has said the "void" was the same size as it has been for some time, 4 locos were on display plus other items (an RH&DR Royal saloon and a 4 wheeled vehicle) which equates to  a "large" loco on display. 

 

The large aisles are in place to try and let everyone get around more easily but you can never guess where the "pinch" points will be before the show.

 

Baz

[Phil Parker]

Sorry that isn't a 100% correct. You can park your trailer/van in there BUT you have to pay the NEC for the privilege of doing it. I thinks Squires had 3 trailers and 3 vans in there this year.

 

The NEC do measure the amount of space "used" in the void..before charging for it.

 

Of course the S4 Society or EM Gauge Society or the O Gauge Guild could always put on a show in the Void to showcase some of their layouts... and they could charge everyone for the privilege of seeing their show within a show.

 

As Chris M has said the "void" was the same size as it has been for some time, 4 locos were on display plus other items (an RH&DR Royal saloon and a 4 wheeled vehicle) which equates to  a "large" loco on display. 

 

The large aisles are in place to try and let everyone get around more easily but you can never guess where the "pinch" points will be before the show.

 

Baz

 

The large aisles are to stop people moaning the aisles are too small and let them moan the aisles are too large instead. Both Andy Y and I are campaigning for the aisles to radiate out from the BRM stand so we can get to the toilets without having to weave around the hall. Also, a special "fast" lane for exhibitors to move around in so we can get places like the tea bar quickly...

 

I love the show within a show concept for the void. Does it have to be railways though? I've been to a slot car event today and think that would be much more fun. Or radio controlled boats/cars/trucks...

[MarkSG]

Of course the S4 Society or EM Gauge Society or the O Gauge Guild could always put on a show in the Void to showcase some of their layouts... and they could charge everyone for the privilege of seeing their show within a show.

 

Just for clarity, it's worth pointing out that this does actually happen. Back in the 90s, when the Internet was a new thing, I regularly used to attend (as a representative of my employer) the Networks Telecom show at the NEC. That often had a show-within-a-show that was physically a "bubble" in the void next to the space used by the main show - typically, it was something like the Linux network show, or similar. The only difference was that they didn't charge extra for admission to the show-within-a-show, instead it was sponsored by a main supplier who got the benefit of their name all over it.

[Craigw]

What about them?

We have had plenty of comments about other layouts but only LLS seems to have brought out the "You can't comment because you haven't done it" type argument.

 

Pretty pointless IMHO

 

Keith

 

My reference to that was not intended to be taken that way. More of a you do the running and display better and show how it should be done.

 

Everybody has different ideas on what they want to do with the hobby and how they want to display and operate models and to me a lot of this discussion has been bordering on "but you should not do it the way you have"

 

Constantly having a go at the one lay out is also pretty pointless too.

 

Still, on the upside, it makes a change from Sidmouth being bagged.

 

Craig W

[chris p bacon]

. My point is..until you have been there and done it - some of the comments made show how little people understand the trials and tribulations of building exhibition layouts, running them at shows and also things like designing and selling kits, parts etc.  

 

 

I've done (and continue to do) all of the above, I still don't think that because someone doesn't do it that they should somehow not be allowed a comment on what they've seen. 

 

As for the other 89 layouts I enjoyed many of them for differing reasons.

[wombatofludham]

The ‘void’ has been there for years so it’s not got any smaller

There weren’t any HUGE scenic layouts this year but there were a lot of very good ones, to my eye. I thought it was a good year to be honest.

LLS and Sidmouth have come in for an inordinate amount of stick from a few and their observations at the time are valid but as Baz said are being hammered a bit too much. What did you like about the show?, make constructive observations by all means but once the red mist of indignation descends they become an argument rather easily.

Step away there’s nothing to see here

 

Did I say the layouts that were there were no good?  No.  in fact I said it was more intimate and comfortable and, in particular, I felt the Lime Street layout would have impressed casual viewers even without any stock moving.  I haven't criticised the show, just raised the point that it felt different.  And I'm sorry, but the last time I went to Warley there was no obvious unused space, so either they disguised it better or it was a larger show the last time I visited, which has to be at least, if not more than five years back.

 

My only complaint about Warley this year was the NEC's shambolic traffic management and had nothing to do with the organisers of the show which I thoroughly enjoyed.  When I lived in the Midlands years ago I used to visit the NEC regularly and the traffic management was never as bad as it was last Sunday.  The show itself though was great and the "you are here" boards around the hall which were new this year (according to the WMRC Facebook feed) were a good idea.

[Ross34]

I've seen LLS at a number of north west shows and primarily my admiration is for the discipline needed to build something conistently of a high standard on that scale.

As to it being a layout I'd stop and watch for while - well, no I wouldn't.

 

But...that doesn't just apply to LLS.

 

And this is obviously were personal preferences become apparent.

 

Generally, I'm not a fan of very large layouts. I'm not sure where that boundary between "large" and "very large" is exactly but I just know that the majority of the latter don't hold my attention for long. In fact quite a few of the grand affairs that seem to get referred to as "must see" end up with me shrugging my shoulders in ambivalence....despite the fact they are obviously built by highly skilled modellers. (I wont name them ..unless your curious...the layouts, not the modellers!)

 

I think the main ingredient missing on these opuses(?) at least from my standpoint is atmosphere...and to a certain extent, presentation.

I also think smaller layouts are slightly harder to make atmospehric, retain operational interest and look convincing.

 

Maybe thats why layouts built by people like Chris Nevard or Iain Rice (for example) are popular?

 

Wouldn't do if we were all the same I guess..

Edited December 2, 2018 by Ross34

[melmerby]

After all the discussion/complaints/rebuffs I think it's about time there were some more pictures of what was on offer.

 

First, Sutton In Ashfield:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next, Ludlow:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keith

Edited December 2, 2018 by melmerby

[kipford]

7 days of layout bashing later all it proves is the 80/20 rule. 80% will have liked the show, 20% will have not. 80% will have liked LLS 20% will have not, 20% of those who frequent RMweb and do not like it will have complained, with the other 80% remaining silent. 80% of those who walked past Brighton probably stopped to look, 20% possibly did not etc etc etc.

[PaulRhB]

Did I say the layouts that were there were no good?

 

 

. And I'm sorry, but the last time I went to Warley there was no obvious unused space, so either they disguised it better or it was a larger show the last time I visited, which has to be at least, if not more than five years back.

.

I didn’t think I had suggested you said they were no good, it wasn’t the intention just commenting that while there were no scenery to the rafters ‘stunners’ but I thought the overall standard was very high this year.

 

The void didn’t used to have walkways through to it so you probably just didn’t notice it.

[jwealleans]

Thanks, Jerry - a pic of my Mrs. keeping herself occupied while I wittered on. Her crochet attracted as much attention as my wagons.

[queensquare]

Thanks, Jerry - a pic of my Mrs. keeping herself occupied while I wittered on. Her crochet attracted as much attention as my wagons.

 

Thanks Jonathan, you were great neighbors for the weekend. I too was fascinated by your wife's crochet, my mum took it up late in life when the arthritis in her hands would no longer allow her to knit.

 

I'm not going to comment further on the LLS debate other than to add the couple of snaps I took on the friday evening when I was lucky enough to be able to have a good look. A truly astonishing piece of work.

 

 

 

Jerry

[Chris M]

LLS was better than some - that bus in the background never moved for the whole exhibition! 

 

 

The absolute definitive situation on size is that the exhibition has used the same amount of space every year since it has been in Hall 5. The void has always been there and always in the same space with standard walling put up by contractors. The exhibition slowly grew from the smallest hall in the NEC to the biggest one over a number of years. The space used is what the organisers at the time of the move to hall 5 thought was about the maximum size that was manageable for both organisers and visitors. The void is extremely useful during breakdown in helping tired exhibitors to get packed and away as quickly as possible. Everyone would of course like to get away quicker than they do.

[Mr.S.corn78]

 that bus in the background never moved for the whole exhibition! 

 

 

 

 

If the keys hadn't been put somewhere safe it may have well been on the move during the exhibition.

 

I'm sure the Rapido and Revolution guys wouldn't have been happy though when it started up with their stands being behind it.

[PaulRhB]

LLS was better than some - that bus in the background never moved for the whole exhibition!

 

 

The void is extremely useful during breakdown in helping tired exhibitors to get packed and away as quickly as possible. Everyone would of course like to get away quicker than they do.

I dunno certain members of the Rapido team would probably have loved it

 

Yes the void is fantastic as it keeps the aisles clear yet you can load under cover when it rains. I take trollies to wheel the layout to it as it’s far easier and quicker than queuing to get right to the layout. It’s great as it is and the stewards were doing a great job directing traffic in that busy space.

[woodenhead]

I think the lack of a full size exhibit (*) as centrepiece made the exhibition look smaller.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

(*) no disrespect to the RHDR and narrow gauge stuff, but there's always something about a standard gauge loco - even if it has to be G*R...……..

Don't worry, i am sure Barry is working with Accurascale to have a couple of Deltics in the hall next year - engines on obviously.

[woodenhead]

Thanks Jonathan, you were great neighbors for the weekend. I too was fascinated by your wife's crochet, my mum took it up late in life when the arthritis in her hands would no longer allow her to knit.

 

I'm not going to comment further on the LLS debate other than to add the couple of snaps I took on the friday evening when I was lucky enough to be able to have a good look. A truly astonishing piece of work.

 

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Jerry

it looks ever so compact in those pictures 

[Michael Edge]

These pictures weren't taken at Warley but at Utrecht back in February when we were exhibiting there  as the only time across the weekend I got a chance to go and see Montherme again it was very busy but certainly ticks the big, spectacular scenery box. I loved it - model of a prototype which really sets the railway in the landscape with a proper backscene, not some six-inch high strip of ply painted a very vivid and unlikely shade of blue! 

 

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If anybody managed to get any good pictures over the weekend I'd like to see them.

 

Probably my favorite bit of individual modelling over the weekend was the allotments on Love Lane which I thought were beautifully modeled although the last picture, for me, demonstrates clearly why a backscene is so important - all that clutter and 'visual noise' really detracts from the scene.

 

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Finally, one of the pleasures of demonstrating is that not only do you get to show off all the latest toys you've made but other modellers bring stuff along to show you so the last pictures show my ugly mug followed by a lovely LNER Atlantic and a triplet set brought along by visitors to the show.

 

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We wont be back next year as its our first grandsons second birthday on the Sunday and we wont be missing that for anything but we will be back in 2020 in some capacity as it will be the 2mm Scale Associations 60th birthday - that's if Baz doesn't warn his successor in the demonstrators hot seat to avoid us like the plague!!

 

Jerry

 

I agree about Montherme, one of the best layouts in the show for me, we were there on holiday in 1988 and I thought then it would make a great layout - if a little boring to operate without the yards extending along the river bank.

View from the hill (the distinctive rocks were on the backscene) at the right hand end of the layout. If you want to read about it there was a long article in Loco Revue July 2017, in French though.

[melmerby]

I've still got some photos to post so here are two "Finescale" layouts

 

First a bit of a fun layout.

Borth, Aberdovey & Ynyslas Railway:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Second Templeford which is 3 Rail O gauge:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Keith

Edited December 4, 2018 by melmerby

[Willie Whizz]

My last word on the subject, I promise ...

 

I know nothing of the history and background of LLS as a model, nor of its owner(s) and operators; but I got the impression from something somebody posted a few days back that it had not originally been conceived as an 'exhibition layout', as such.  It is purely my speculation, therefore, but that may well account for why it is so difficult to obtain a good viewing experience of the trains actually in operation - which is what should make any model railway something more than a diorama.  If it was never designed from the outset for being watched from from a distance behind barriers that have to be positioned several feet away (presumably to allow free movement for the operators along the front of the layout); and if it was designed for the optimum viewing angles to be those enjoyed by seated operators (i.e.with a normal 'eyeline' a couple of feet lower than that of the viewing public); then I suppose we (including me) should not actually be surprised at the issues some of us have been describing.  The same would probably apply to many other famous models originally conceived to be located and operated in a specific location and viewed by only ever a handful of people at a time, if they were ever taken out of that habitat and put before the wider mass public.

 

The moral of the story, to me, appears to be that if one is designing and building a 'large' or 'very large' layout which is likely to go on the exhibition circuit, then careful attention needs to be paid from the outset as to how the spectacle will be viewed and appreciated by the majority of the 'paying public'.  I'm sure - on reflection - that it's no coincidence most of those such that are regarded as both realistic and successful have been operated from the rear not the front; allow the spectators to get within about an arm's length of the front of the baseboards; and run accurate models of appropriate trains to a sequence or timetable that - whilst absolutely not "playing toy trains" - does contrive to avoid lengthy gaps between there being any movement at all.

 

I don't have the time, the space, the money, the skills or the years left to me to build a 'very large layout' of such magnificence and complexity and put it on exhibition.  But if I do win the Lottery this weekend, those are my "lessons learned" from this experience and these discussions.

[Michael Edge]

That's precisely why I have never built my long planned model of Liverpool Central station (it was also in a hole and almost all covered by roof) - instead I built Herculaneum Dock which was originally planned as an extension to Central.

[PaulRhB]

It’s an impossible one to win as compromises are essential. If it was only seen online people would wish to see it in person. Converting it to raise it and operate it in a different way just for shows probably adds too much time and cost to what is already a huge project. I was glad to see it but I didn’t hang around earlier in the day like I did for the constant action on The Gresley Beat at a previous show because it was so busy and I couldn’t get close to enjoy the detail. Instead I went when it was quieter later to see it.

There was so much else to see and you could dive in when you saw less people there. I reckon I circle the hall four or five times most years and note the busy ones and pass near each time to see if it’s quieter. I reckon I went back to Gresley Beat about four times and only joined the throng twice in different spots.

When there’s such spectacular architecture there I think they can get away with less trains, much like Pempoul where you can spend ages just appreciating the work in that. The Hotel was my favourite bit on LLS because it was so unusual to see that scale of building modelled.

[Steve Hewitt]

A few points of clarification.........

 

I would like to respond to the comments above and also clear up a few facts about LLS.

• The model is owned by John Holden, and is the fulfillment of a life long ambition, based on childhood memories of journeys to London. He has spent more than 30 years on it so far.
   
• It was not originally intended to be an “exhibition layout”.
   
• The portable nature of its construction was dictated by the limited space available in the cellar workshop of John’s then home; only three baseboards could be assembled at any one time.
   
• It has been exhibited as a “work in progress”  since being invited to local shows by show managers who had heard about it.
   
• The layout’s design isn’t John’s, it goes back to the mid 19^th century, and was developed by the LNWR and from 1923 by the LMS. The date depicted by the model is late 1947, just before the creation of British Railways.
   
• The following post from the LLS  Topic hopefully shows how we’ve tried to capture the original. Posted 14 November 2018 - 14:29

  LMS2968, on 05 Nov 2018 - 11:29, said:

  Another from the same source, October 1953.
  
  

  Our representation of a small section of the above picture........

   

  

   

  I managed to get this shot on my phone during set up at the Tyneside exhibition last Friday.

   

  The hotel is built to scale at 4mm per foot, but some compression of the buildings to the right has been necessary to fit the space available.

  The Theatre to the left of the hotel is an excellent perspective model built by Chris Hewitt, which can only be viewed at an acute angle once the assembly of the layout is complete.

   

• All John’s team are  well aware of the difficulties of seeing what’s going on at any moment. That’s why we need 22 CCTV cameras to operate it.
   
• Operating from the front is and always was the only option.
   
• It is not a railway on which you can just run trains. Every movement has to have a purpose, and control is co-ordinated between the Station and “Edge Hill and beyond” – i.e.the Sector Plate & Fiddle Yard. That said, there are no times when nothing should be moving.  It could be that the movement is forty-odd feet away, and under the canopy.
   
• The sequence we operate is based on the 1947 winter timetable up to the early afternoon. The whole sequence comprises 138 moves at the Station and 154 moves at the Hidden Sidings. The total of 292 moves is usually completed in 2.5 hours, giving an average of 1.9 moves per minute.
   
• The Barriers are only an issue at some locations. At the more specialist shows e.g. ExpoEM we don’t have barriers.

For those who’ve missed the history of the LLS model, you may wish to see the BRM Video, made a few years ago now:  (2012)

What a lot has been achieved since then.

 

If I can give any further information about the What? Why? When? etc. of  the layout and its operation please don't hesitate to ask.

Preferably on the Lime Street Station topic rather than this Warley show topic so we don't bore those not interested in LLS.

 

Steve.