SECR Maunsell D1 Class Locomotive

[Venator]

Always late to the party..... anyway may I add my delight at this announcement. I hope the models are slightly tidied up and the minor faults with the D sorted before final production. That said though I'm prepared to accept slight problems on an RTR model as they would still be infinitely better than my attempts at kit building. I have pre-ordered the SE&CR grey, SR Green (with top feed) and BR early crest.

[Big James]

24 minutes ago, Venator said:

That said though I'm prepared to accept slight problems on an RTR model as they would still be infinitely better than my attempts at kit building.

i can relate to this. I suffer from anxiety and if the details are wrong I would end up kicking myself. Any RTR model will be infinitely better then I can produce. I’m going to pre-order the late and early crest versions plus depending on how funds allow at a later date the very early BR version. 
 

Big James

[JSpencer]

Congratulations to Rails producing this class. I was very surprised although maybe share some concerns above.

 

Anyway, I have been trying to figure out which models will carry what details.

Looking at the photos, this is what I'm able to guess:

•  Two frame variations (to include early D class conversions)--> I cannot see any differences between the models

• Two cab types --> I cannot see any differences between the models
• Two Chimney types --> There seems to be a fat and thin version but it is far from clear in the images! 

Fat version:735 (SECR), 1741 (SR), 1749 (SR), 31741 (early BR), 31426 (late BR)

Thin Version: 31487 (sunshine),
• Two Smokebox types --> I cannot see any differences between the models unless we refer to smokebox doors (BR number plate or not)
• Three dome types (with/without top feed and plated) --> Easy enough

No feed: 735 (SECR), 1741 (SR), 1749 (SR), 31741 (early BR), 31426 (late BR), 31487 (sunshine),

Top feed:  1741 (SR),

Top Feed plated over: 1749 (SR),
• Two safety valve types (Ross-pop and Ramsbottom) --> easy enough to spot

Ross pop: 1749 (SR), 31487 (sunshine), 31741 (early BR),

Ramsbottom:  735 (SECR), 1741 (SR), 31426 (late BR),
• With and without snifter valves  --> easy enough to spot

With: 735 (SECR), 1741 (SR), 1749 (SR),

Without: 31487 (sunshine),31741 (early BR), 31426 (late BR)
• Manual and automatic lubricators --> I cannot see any differences between the models

 

@Oliver Rails are you able to kindly provide details please?

 

Edited February 26, 2022 by JSpencer

[truffy]

21 hours ago, Venator said:

Always late to the party..... anyway may I add my delight at this announcement. I hope the models are slightly tidied up and the minor faults with the D sorted before final production. That said though I'm prepared to accept slight problems on an RTR model as they would still be infinitely better than my attempts at kit building.

 

20 hours ago, Big James said:

Any RTR model will be infinitely better then I can produce.

My only concern is that they get the Maunsell green right. I'd hate for it to clash too badly with the rest of my Hornmann/Bachby SR fleet. 

[Robin Brasher]

Thank you for your comments about the D-1s. D1 reminds me of the Hornby Dublo catalogue number.

 

I hope you enjoy reading my notes from the photographs in Locomotives Illustrated 23, The Wainwight 4-4-0s and their derivatives.  There is a picture of A749 D-1 A749 departing from Victoria with the 15.20 train to Ramsgate in June 1926.

D1 4-4-0.xlsx

[Jack P]

On 27/02/2022 at 09:29, JSpencer said:

Congratulations to Rails producing this class. I was very surprised although maybe share some concerns above.

 

Anyway, I have been trying to figure out which models will carry what details.

Looking at the photos, this is what I'm able to guess:

•  Two frame variations (to include early D class conversions)--> I cannot see any differences between the models

• Two cab types --> I cannot see any differences between the models
• Two Chimney types --> There seems to be a fat and thin version but it is far from clear in the images! 

Fat version:735 (SECR), 1741 (SR), 1749 (SR), 31741 (early BR), 31426 (late BR)

Thin Version: 31487 (sunshine),
• Two Smokebox types --> I cannot see any differences between the models unless we refer to smokebox doors (BR number plate or not)
• Three dome types (with/without top feed and plated) --> Easy enough

No feed: 735 (SECR), 1741 (SR), 1749 (SR), 31741 (early BR), 31426 (late BR), 31487 (sunshine),

Top feed:  1741 (SR),

Top Feed plated over: 1749 (SR),
• Two safety valve types (Ross-pop and Ramsbottom) --> easy enough to spot

Ross pop: 1749 (SR), 31487 (sunshine), 31741 (early BR),

Ramsbottom:  735 (SECR), 1741 (SR), 31426 (late BR),
• With and without snifter valves  --> easy enough to spot

With: 735 (SECR), 1741 (SR), 1749 (SR),

Without: 31487 (sunshine),31741 (early BR), 31426 (late BR)
• Manual and automatic lubricators --> I cannot see any differences between the models

 

@Oliver Rails are you able to kindly provide details please?

 

 

 

Thanks for posting this! I thought I was losing my mind when I couldn't see any of the differences mentioned (except the obvious ones)

[Wickham Green too]

14 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

..... I hope you enjoy reading my notes from the photographs in Locomotives Illustrated 23, .......

Thanks, that's the one source I have listed for 31487 that I couldn't track down ...... confirms that I have no shots of it in any 'sunshine' variant.

 

Still, leaves the mystery of different cabs & frames - the lubrication difference will refer to the presence ( or not ) of a mechanical lubricator on the LH running plate and, hopefully, absence ( or not ) of a displacement lubricator somewhere in the cab.

[Robin Brasher]

Thank you.  There was so much grime on 31487 that I could not see whether it was lined or not but it seemed to have the late crest.  The picture was by Derek Cross and it looks like it was a bright, sunny day.  I have not seen any pictures of the prototype with sunshine lettering or in Southern malachite green.

[Wickham Green too]

Wouldn't have carried malachite - the only 4-4-0s that got that were the Schools, Ls, L1s and No.119.

[Les1952]

On 25/02/2022 at 09:12, rembrow said:

Unfortunately they may mess up, as the livery samples show one of the 'cycling lions' facing the wrong direction. They have them both facing left, the same issue as with the 'D' early BR. Dapol and Rails were alerted about the D early BR tender motif error, but production had been completed and they were unwilling to correct. The running plate lining was also sensitive to handling and I had to add a satin varnish coat.

 

 

The problems of Dapol Lions facing the wrong way seems to go right back to George Smith's day and the B17.  Someone in a position of authority told George that BR Crests (meaning the late ones but he appears to have been a little unspecific) must always face left.

 

The result is that every Dapol B17 with late crest has been wrong, as every prototype B17 given the late crest had it facing the chimney on both sides and none survived long enough to be corrected. How do we know?  The late Willie Yeadon recoded all of them in the scrap line.

 

Such mistakes, when they get into the system, are notoriously difficult to get out again.  Cecil J Allen's mis-spelling of  the engineer CORTAZZI's name has become so widepread that everyone refers to his invention  as a CARTAZZI truck.....

 

Les

[phil gollin]

18 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

Wouldn't have carried malachite - the only 4-4-0s that got that were the Schools, Ls, L1s and No.119.

.

 

Another reason for the L1 to be modelled as soon as possible (!) . . . .  

 

.

[MartinM]

As the only livery for SE&CR is grey I assume that this was the only livery used on D1's before 1923? 

Or will there be  latter batch of SE&CR ones....

 

Martin 

[Graham_Muz]

12 minutes ago, MartinM said:

As the only livery for SE&CR is grey I assume that this was the only livery used on D1's before 1923? 

Or will there be  latter batch of SE&CR ones....

 

Martin 

 

They only carried the one SECR livery.

[JSpencer]

There is an interesting article about SECR grey paint in the SECR society magazine this month.

 

Now it is difficult to draw definitive conclusions so we are left using a little bit of Occam's razor, but there are suggestions that from 1916 we saw a brief mix of locos coming out in dull black or grey with white or yellow numbering on the sides (tender sides for tender locos).

Equally that the initial S E (then number) C R was dropped to just the number to avoid operational issues of trying to read the number between the text. The odd loco still got turned out in green.

 

It is interesting from my point of view that loco numbers suddenly grew to huge readable sizes in 1916/17 when prior to that, they were on small plates. So what operational need could arise from 1916/17 to have numbers becoming suddenly big and readable I wonder?

Maybe a war department need?  Did some go across the channel with supplies and come back from time to time? who knows?

 

Another fair point that is raised is that the background colour of cabside ownership plates (containing the letters SECR) is often shown in red by RTR makers. However the article has doubts on this. There would be no reason to highlight them. Photos "seem" to suggest the background colour was the same as the loco (grey).

 

And then it continues as to what sort of grey. Now it cannot say with certitude but it seems that lead based paint had to be replaced by zinc sulphate based paint. This "might" partly explain to the switch from green (aside from not needing to be cleaned etc). Another mention of 1896 law prohibiting ladies from using lead white pigments (men are free to die from toxicity it seems!) leading to another possible reason of zinc sulphate use (if it was actually used of course....).

 

Now part of the article was written by a chemist who notes that Zinc Sulphate would have darkened over  time not just to grime and sulphate coming out of the chimney but equally from being in the sunny south!

Slate grey - as it was called - is quite dark. Battleship grey opens up a realm of possibilities as many greys (and other colours) were used on warships in wartime.

 

So using different darknesses of grey in SECR days would be reasonably accurate!

 

[Wickham Green too]

9 hours ago, JSpencer said:

.... loco numbers suddenly grew to huge readable sizes in 1916/17 ......

A number - sorry - of railways did this around then when they adopted a form of train reporting that required the bobby to identify each train by the loco's number ..... no, don't ask me for details - it's wot I red somewhere !

Edited March 2, 2022 by Wickham Green too
spilling corrupted

[No Decorum]

I know Oxford’s GE N7/L77 isn’t an SECR loco (before anyone points that out) but on the model, the yellow is difficult to read against the grey. That would suggest to me that the grey would need to be darker on that model. On the picture in the opening post of the grey D1, the white numbers stand out clearly, which hints to me that the grey is at least dark enough to be practical. I read somewhere that the  locos were painted dark grey, which suggests to me that the grey should be darker than illustrated but how much darker, as JSpencer suggests, is tricky.

 

I recall Model Rail opting for black USA Tanks because of this problem. Oh well, at least the D1 seems as it it will fit in with existing SECR grey models.

[Trumpet]

Novice question, but did the SECR Liveried D1 Classes have grey running boards? I fear I might reignite a previous discussion (specifically the Hornby Clans and the Green Running boards...)

[JSpencer]

5 hours ago, No Decorum said:

I know Oxford’s GE N7/L77 isn’t an SECR loco (before anyone points that out) but on the model, the yellow is difficult to read against the grey. That would suggest to me that the grey would need to be darker on that model. On the picture in the opening post of the grey D1, the white numbers stand out clearly, which hints to me that the grey is at least dark enough to be practical. I read somewhere that the  locos were painted dark grey, which suggests to me that the grey should be darker than illustrated but how much darker, as JSpencer suggests, is tricky.

 

I recall Model Rail opting for black USA Tanks because of this problem. Oh well, at least the D1 seems as it it will fit in with existing SECR grey models.

 

My hunch (and I guess that of the article as well) was that SECR ex-works grey (often used on first example prior to being painted in green) was a lead white based paint as photos of these locos always look lighter grey to me than the later locomotive grey.

 

The SECR grey loco livery paint was said to be able to get darker noticeably within 20 minutes (if I read the article correctly)!

[Robin Brasher]

There are some black and white pictures of 4-4-0s ( not D-1s) in Locomotives Illustrated 23. To me it seems to be a dark shade of grey and I think that the footplate is grey as well. I expect they painted the green and maroon parts on the old livery grey. 

[Nile]

On previous models from Bachmann (N & C) the running plate was grey, as it was on Rails' own D. On Hatton's P it was black, wrong or different because it was a tank loco?

Edited March 3, 2022 by Nile
D not L !

[wainwright1]

12 hours ago, Nile said:

On previous models from Bachmann (N & C) the running plate was grey, as it was on Rails' own D. On Hatton's P it was black, wrong or different because it was a tank loco?

Waiting for Hornby to do a grey and possibly simplified and/or unlined green H class.

Ray

[Wickham Green too]

14 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

...... To me it seems to be a dark shade of grey and I think that the footplate is grey as well. ......

Yes, the grey is very dark and often difficult to differentiate from the black smokebox. Where the footplate 'top' shows, of course, is where it sweeps up from one level to another : this is most easily seen where this is at the front of the loco as on a Mogul or River and inspection of numerous photos shows that the paint, here, is very clearly ........

 

 

 

 

........ er  -  virtually indistinguishable from the grey & black of other components !

[JSpencer]

13 hours ago, Nile said:

On previous models from Bachmann (N & C) the running plate was grey, as it was on Rails' own D. On Hatton's P it was black, wrong or different because it was a tank loco?

 

There were differences in the real world too it seems. I've seen an N pic which hints the chassis in works lead white grey, the boiler in slate grey and the smokebox in black.

Then we had some painters scrapping the splasher beading clear. Shown on Rails D last year, but I've also seen a H as such in photos.

 

We have the terrier titch photographed in 1920 in grey with  S  E 751 C R on the sides.

 

So it may be possible for the running plate to be grey or black.

 

[Ficksberglion]

31145 at Nine Elms in 1960. Other locos in the picture are available in RTR, if you can find them.

[Venator]

3 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Waiting for Hornby to do a grey and possibly simplified and/or unlined green H class.

Ray

 

I'd love to be wrong but I'd be very surprised if they do. The H seems very low down on Hornby's priority list given the BR early R3731 and Southern Sunshine R3763 are both due for release in Autumn 2023! Presumably if another manufacturer announced a H they'd be released tomorrow..........

 

Anyway back on topic, very excited about a D1. Does anyone think if it sells well Dapol and Rails might make a couple of adjustments and release an E1? They were broadly the same except the Ds having slightly bigger driving wheels and the E1s had fluted conrods.

Edited March 4, 2022 by Venator