Hornby 2023 - New tooling - DELTIC prototype - Hornby Dublo

[rogerzilla]

Now yellow ends are no longer required (with the right headlights) it's about time GBRf did a 69 or something in DP1 livery.  They're already toying with speed whiskers and pastiches of other retro paint schemes.

[adb968008]

24 minutes ago, Mike_Walker said:

Regarding possible overseas markets for Deltics, my sadly departed friend Jim Boyd was of the firm opinion that if any North American railroad tried out the prototype Deltic it would have been the Pennsylvania as they could never resist trying anything that was a " bit different" or an oddball - just look at their early diesel roster.  Can't you just picture it in Tuscan red with gold pinstripes working on the New York & Long Branch alongside those CNJ double-ended Baldwins?

 

Jim also used to claim that those railroads that roster Fairbanks-Morse units with their opposed piston engines did so to provide a penance for disgraced mechanics to work on.  Just imagine what level of misdemeanour would have to be committed to be given a Deltic to work on...  BTW, Jim was an EMD field service representative before becoming a rail journalist so perhaps just a tad biased.

I doubt North America would have ever worked for Deltic.

 

They were too far advanced, and it would have easily failed the keep it simple test. Finally it would have failed the “not invented here” syndrome that pervades.

No way would you have seen 100 Deltics made here exported there, and we wouldnt have been able to construct at speed. It would have been a licence export, which in the big scheme of things is little more than IP for very little in return.

 

Maybe better to have looked at India, Australia though they were looking away at that time too.

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by adb968008

[MikeParkin65]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I doubt North America would have ever worked for Deltic.

 

They were too far advanced, and it would have easily failed the keep it simple test. Finally it would have failed the “not invented here” syndrome that pervades.

No way would you have seen 100 Deltics made here exported there, and we wouldnt have been able to construct at speed. It would have been a licence export, which in the big scheme of things is little more than IP for very little in return.

 

Maybe better to have looked at India, Australia though they were looking away at that time too.

 

 

Agree with all of that. I wonder how the Deltics would have coped in hotter climates too - nearly every photo you see of a working Deltic they have all the engine room windows open which I understand is for the additional cooling that results (have I just inadvertently spotted the only flaw on the Accurascale model?!)

[adb968008]

38 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Agree with all of that. I wonder how the Deltics would have coped in hotter climates too - nearly every photo you see of a working Deltic they have all the engine room windows open which I understand is for the additional cooling that results (have I just inadvertently spotted the only flaw on the Accurascale model?!)

I think better export potential could have been the class 20 and 37 to Europe, and Africa, if a Cape Gauge version could have been done.

 

it may have also been successful in Southern Africa, Malaya* and New Zealand. The US seemed to struggle with under 2000hp diesels on 6 axles, which is a weight issue, which may not be an issue in the US, but more so outside resulting in larger hp than required on 6 axle diesels.

 

of course ability to construct in volume at speed remains, but a competitor to the Nohab for instance, it could have been.

 

 

* EE did build a ktm class 22 for Malaysia which uses an uprated BR class 20 EE power unit... doesnt this engine sound familiar…

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by adb968008

[MikeParkin65]

8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I think better export potential could have been the class 20 and 37 to Europe, and Africa, if a Cape Gauge version could have been done.

 

it may have also been successful in Southern Africa, Malaya* and New Zealand. The US seemed to struggle with under 2000hp diesels on 6 axles, which is a weight issue, which may not be an issue in the US, but more so outside resulting in larger hp than required on 6 axle diesels.

 

of course ability to construct in volume at speed remains, but a competitor to the Nohab for instance, it could have been.

 

 

* EE did build a ktm class 22 for Malaysia which uses an uprated BR class 20 EE power unit... doesnt this engine sound familiar…

 

 

 

 

Lovely! :)

[BachelorBoy]

4 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I think better export potential could have been the class 20 and 37 to Europe, and Africa, if a Cape Gauge version could have been done.

 

it may have also been successful in Southern Africa, Malaya* and New Zealand. The US seemed to struggle with under 2000hp diesels on 6 axles, which is a weight issue, which may not be an issue in the US, but more so outside resulting in larger hp than required on 6 axle diesels.

 

The EE Malayan Railway Class 20 (metre gauge) started service in September 1957.

 

 

 

 

 

[jjb1970]

 The main issue for the Deltic was the engine. It was a small, lightweight and highly stressed engine designed for an application which needed as much power as possible from the smallest engine possible, running on diesel. Complexity, high maintenance requirements and thirst were acceptable in return for a small and very powerful diesel engine. Those compromises were also acceptable for a small group of high performance express passenger locomotives, but in North America distances can be much longer and what was needed were durable, reliable engines for hauling freight. Also, within a few years much more conventional engines capable of providing very high power within the volume limits of locomotives would become available.

[rogerzilla]

5 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 The main issue for the Deltic was the engine. It was a small, lightweight and highly stressed engine designed for an application which needed as much power as possible from the smallest engine possible, running on diesel. Complexity, high maintenance requirements and thirst were acceptable in return for a small and very powerful diesel engine. Those compromises were also acceptable for a small group of high performance express passenger locomotives, but in North America distances can be much longer and what was needed were durable, reliable engines for hauling freight. Also, within a few years much more conventional engines capable of providing very high power within the volume limits of locomotives would become available.

ISTR that the Deltics in service cost 3x more to run than a Type 4 passenger loco (pretty bad when you consider that availability of Class 47/50 was usually poor).

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, rogerzilla said:

ISTR that the Deltics in service cost 3x more to run than a Type 4 passenger loco (pretty bad when you consider that availability of Class 47/50 was usually poor).

DP2 was not poor, it was more reliable than BR expected until BR ruined it in production.  Had the procurement for an ECML fast diesel come along a couple of years later, perhaps it would have been based on this rather than the Deltic engine.

[rogerzilla]

8 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

DP2 was not poor, it was more reliable than BR expected until BR ruined it in production.  Had the procurement for an ECML fast diesel come along a couple of years later, perhaps it would have been based on this rather than the Deltic engine.

DP2 wasn't a Deltic, though.  It was a Class 50 prototype with a V16 engine.  Just happened to be in a modified Deltic bodyshell.

 

DP2 was arguably better than the eventual Class 50, as BR insisted on a lot of extra features that ended up reducing reliability.

[woodenhead]

4 minutes ago, rogerzilla said:

DP2 wasn't a Deltic, though.  It was a Class 50 prototype with a V16 engine.  Just happened to be in a modified Deltic bodyshell.

 

DP2 was arguably better than the eventual Class 50, as BR insisted on a lot of extra features that ended up reducing reliability.

I know it was a prototype, but I am saying, if the procurement had come along a little later, EE might have stuck the V16 engine into a bodyshell rather than the Deltic engine and we would never have had the Deltics which were expensive to run and non standard whereas there was more EE family commonality between 37s, 40s and 50s though the Deltics did have a lot of other EE components i.e. bogies.

[Anoldpom]

I shall pass on this model much as I love the thought of a cast meta Deltic. I doubt if some of my baseboards would stand up to the weight of it!

 

Besides I have my old Kitmaster on a Lima chassis just nicely run in after 40 odd years. Those were the days.................

[maico]

On 10/01/2023 at 09:24, HonestTom said:

Clearly Hornby have reason to believe there's money in this market, given that they've been catering to it since 2020, so I don't find it a bewildering choice at all. It's glamorous, it has the nostalgia factor (whether you saw it in service or in a museum) and it's the first diesel under the revived Dublo brand. I won't buy one, because I'm not in that market, but I daresay there are plenty who will.

 

I placed an order last night on the Hornby website which is a no cost process. There were only 6 left and as of today they are showing sold-out! I can't see any info on the production run, maybe it's a regular model?

A couple of years ago I bought the NRM one from Locomotion mail order which was £165. They seem to get new production runs from time to time. There were 2 variants available back then one with additional red paint on part of the underframe.

Maybe Hornby are planning further versions including weathered and sound fitted.

Edited January 16, 2023 by maico

[APOLLO]

On 11/01/2023 at 11:47, adb968008 said:

I doubt North America would have ever worked for Deltic.

 

They were too far advanced, and it would have easily failed the keep it simple test. Finally it would have failed the “not invented here” syndrome that pervades.

No way would you have seen 100 Deltics made here exported there, and we wouldnt have been able to construct at speed. It would have been a licence export, which in the big scheme of things is little more than IP for very little in return.

 

Maybe better to have looked at India, Australia though they were looking away at that time too.

 

 

 

N America DID have a Deltic, The New York Pumper.

 

https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/trucks-and-heavy-equipment/fireground-classic-1965-mack-superpumper-big-water-from-the-napier-deltic-diesel/

 

 

 

The Deltic was used on US Marine MTB's  (Motor Topedo Boats) also.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Nasty-class_patrol_boat

 

 

Alas no locomotives though.

 

Brit15

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, APOLLO said:

 

N America DID have a Deltic, The New York Pumper.

 

https://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/trucks-and-heavy-equipment/fireground-classic-1965-mack-superpumper-big-water-from-the-napier-deltic-diesel/

 

 

 

 

 

The baddest fire engine in the west !

Edited January 16, 2023 by adb968008

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

 

 

The baddest fire engine in the west !

 

Lil' squirt?

[Hilux5972]

1 hour ago, maico said:

I can't see any info on the production run, maybe it's a regular model?

Hornby magazine said it’s a limited edition 

[GordonC]

22 minutes ago, Hilux5972 said:

Hornby magazine said it’s a limited edition 

 

I'm not really sure what 'limited edition' means these days, production quantities must have dropped for most models now.

 

Are they really going to tool up a unique loco to just produce 500 or 1000 models and bin the tools? its not even like they can put other numbers on it

[adb968008]

Maybe like the Bachmann one they will do multiple with minor livery variations as per WCML, ECML and subtle changes during repaints.

 

but tbh… I’m not convinced on this model, but if they were to do a diecast diesel this would probably be it. But plenty of other fishes might have been meatier catches in the sea.

Edited January 16, 2023 by adb968008

['CHARD]

I expressed interest in this on announcement day, but if I've missed the boat then so be it.  I'm not confident enough that it will be up to scratch, or that I'll be able to afford it when it finally emerges, so it's too precarious a proposition to pre-order.  If it's fabulous then I'll get one in the aftermath of the evident Dublo collector froth.

[Hilux5972]

30 minutes ago, 'CHARD said:

I expressed interest in this on announcement day, but if I've missed the boat then so be it.  I'm not confident enough that it will be up to scratch, or that I'll be able to afford it when it finally emerges, so it's too precarious a proposition to pre-order.  If it's fabulous then I'll get one in the aftermath of the evident Dublo collector froth.

What makes you think it won’t be “up to scratch”? 

[ac1874]

Did anyone get to the bottom of whether there were working fans and sound as per SK's comments in the launch video? Doesn't seem very likely even at that price.

 

 

 

 

[JohnR]

3 hours ago, GordonC said:

 

I'm not really sure what 'limited edition' means these days, production quantities must have dropped for most models now.

 

Are they really going to tool up a unique loco to just produce 500 or 1000 models and bin the tools? its not even like they can put other numbers on it

 

The catalogue says that is a run of just 500

['CHARD]

3 hours ago, Hilux5972 said:

What makes you think it won’t be “up to scratch”? 

 

Nothing other than a complete lack of confidence.

[adb968008]

2 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

The catalogue says that is a run of just 500

6231 Limited Edition that kicked all this craze off in 2020 said that too.

 

Unless I see pictures of the tooling being smashed, theres always temptation to make the slightest tweak, bung a new catalog number on it, and spin the wheel one more time.

 

Ive still got that sacred limited edition 4771 Green Arrow somewhere, spare never to be repeated, once, twice, thrice….

 

Great Gathering is on its third time around the block. Theres no such thing as rare, in a commercial world, its all about finding angles… failing that just retool it and do it again.

 

2025 and S&D 200 is coming, Deltic lives in Shildon, theres an excuse for an anniversary version right there… stick a “200th anniversary edition” label on the box and let it roll.

 

I suspect things like Lion, Rocket, 92220, DELTIC, Scotsman, A4 are leading up to this event too… locomotion no1 must surely be on the horizon…you can bet on a celebrity Azuma, made just down the road.

 

Not sure about a Rainhill 200… theres no where to hold it, no Bold, no MOSI access, no Steamport, not even Dinting… no sidings really anywhere besides Edge Hill Depot, between Liverpool and Manchester… perhaps they will celebrate in that time honoured tradition of a pair of Black 5’s on the S&C with a diesel on the back.

Edited January 17, 2023 by adb968008