Hornby 2023 - New tooling - DELTIC prototype - Hornby Dublo

[Dunsignalling]

Without any need for Hornby to resort to sharp practice, I think we can reasonably expect to see: 500 x DCC ready, 500 x DCC fitted, and 500 x DCC sound fitted.

 

I reckon the main market for these will be collectors and recent recruits to the hobby.

 

Most established modellers who wanted a "DP1 to run" have probably had one of the Bachmann models for years.

 

Used prices for those have held up rather well, though, which may have influenced Hornby's decision to make it.

 

John

Edited January 19, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[RedgateModels]

17 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

I'm tempted to argue that if you haven't thrown the box away, you're a collector... 😉

 

Thrown away? I'm making the things 🤣

 

Edited January 20, 2023 by RedgateModels

[E100]

15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Without any need for Hornby to resort to sharp practice, I think we can reasonably expect to see: 500 x DCC ready, 500 x DCC fitted, and 500 x DCC sound fitted.

 

I reckon the main market for these will be collectors and recent recruits to the hobby.

 

Most established modellers who wanted a "DP1 to run" have probably had one of the Bachmann models for years.

 

Used prices for those have held up rather well, though, which may have influenced Hornby's decision to make it.

 

John

 

I think DCC fitted will be an interesting price point as the difference between sound and ready is only £30.

[Dunsignalling]

1 minute ago, E100 said:

 

I think DCC fitted will be an interesting price point as the difference between sound and ready is only £30.

Which isn't really the point I was trying to make.

 

Offering it would enable Hornby to produce another "limited edition" with none of them exceeding 500.... 

 

So, is the sound version "just" TTS, then? 

 

John

[franciswilliamwebb]

17 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

I'm tempted to argue that if you haven't thrown the box away, you're a collector... 😉

 

Or you're an experienced modeller/experienced collector who, even after 10 years, can't  shake that nagging feeling that you still might need to send it back😉

[Ian Hargrave]

10 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Which isn't really the point I was trying to make.

 

Offering it would enable Hornby to produce another "limited edition" with none of them exceeding 500.... 

 

So, is the sound version "just" TTS, then? 

 

John

Good question. Hopefully not.

[5Dublo2]

13 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

So, is the sound version "just" TTS, then? 

The sound version is the new TXS (Triplex Sound where TTS was Two Track Sound)  with the Bluetooth control (HM DCC) capability

Edited January 20, 2023 by 5Dublo2

[MikeParkin65]

18 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

But still better than most of the layouts it will sit on. We've had is mentioned elsewhere on the forum that modellers start shouting for models "updated to the latest standards" within a few years of a loco being produced. I wonder if there's a bigger crossover between "modeller" and "collector" than many people really want to admit. I'm tempted to argue that if you haven't thrown the box away, you're a collector... 😉

Appreciate the comment is tongue in cheek but keeping the boxes doesn't make a modeller a 'collector'. I've got one useable modelling room and am mid way through a layout rebuild. The best and safest way to store the stock is in its original packaging (sometimes modified to allow for the added detail parts or coaled up tender etc). And of course if I do decide to move a model on its a lot easier both practically and in terms of sales potential if it has its packaging and box. 

[Phil Parker]

5 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

The best and safest way to store the stock is in its original packaging (sometimes modified to allow for the added detail parts or coaled up tender etc).

 

You will find very few exhibitors, who move stock around and pack and unpack it a lot*, who would agree with you. My stuff lives in nice wooden storage boxes which can hold the maximum amount of locos in the smallest space. Judging by the number of people who compalin about getting things out of the boxes in the first place, I'd suggest they would be better with a solution not aimed at getting the model safely from the other side of the world too.

 

*I once exhibited opposite a Z gauge layout where they stock went back in its individual boxes. He was still doing this 2 hours after the show closed. In the hall on his own.

[Ian Hargrave]

55 minutes ago, 5Dublo2 said:

The sound version is the new TXS (Triplex Sound where TTS was Two Track Sound)  with the Bluetooth control (HM DCC) capability

Thanks for that. TTS fitted models cannot run on DC analogue. Am I correct in my assumption that the same will apply to TXS or is this as yet unknown? 

[MikeParkin65]

11 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

You will find very few exhibitors, who move stock around and pack and unpack it a lot*, who would agree with you. My stuff lives in nice wooden storage boxes which can hold the maximum amount of locos in the smallest space. Judging by the number of people who compalin about getting things out of the boxes in the first place, I'd suggest they would be better with a solution not aimed at getting the model safely from the other side of the world too.

 

*I once exhibited opposite a Z gauge layout where they stock went back in its individual boxes. He was still doing this 2 hours after the show closed. In the hall on his own.

Interesting - happy to be in a minority. But I do consider myself to be a modeller though I have no plans to be an exhibitor and the models never leave the house so for me, the supplied packaging works.  Not sure how I'm going to cope if all boxes become Accurascale sized although I suppose I could resort to loosing the box and just keeping the 'icecube'.

 

But then the thought of destroying those lovely boxes - oh Lord - am I becoming a box  collector? 🤣

[Phil Parker]

1 minute ago, MikeParkin65 said:

But then the thought of destroying those lovely boxes - oh Lord - am I becoming a box  collector? 🤣

 

The big question is - are boxes signed by the manufacturer worth more or less than pristine examples? 🤑

[5Dublo2]

9 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Thanks for that. TTS fitted models cannot run on DC analogue. Am I correct in my assumption that the same will apply to TXS or is this as yet unknown? 

I am not sure if DC running is enabled in the TXS decoders as not been mentioned.

However the loco with the HM7000 decoder  will run on a track that is powered by DC/analog (either a direct transformer connection to track OR a non-PWM DC controller supplying at least 1Amp of current, with the  speed dial turned all of the way up) as the control of the loco itself, including the sound, can be done from your smartphone as long as there is either DC or DCC track power.

[Ian Hargrave]

14 minutes ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Thanks for that. TTS fitted models cannot run on DC analogue. Am I correct in my assumption that the same will apply to TXS or is this as yet unknown? 

For advice,I rang Hornby Technical Services and received a quick and useful response. The advice is to remove the chip &fit a 21 pin dcc blanking plate which they hope will be included . 

[Dunsignalling]

I've just unwrapped the parcel containing my EFE LSWR coach pack and have discovered that the borderline between manufacturers' packaging and stock boxes has suddenly become somewhat blurred....😀 Excellent idea.👍

 

I hope the next similar application (whoever it might come from) will contain a Class 120 DMU!

 

John

Edited January 20, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[spamcan61]

19 minutes ago, 5Dublo2 said:

I am not sure if DC running is enabled in the TXS decoders as not been mentioned.

However the loco with the HM7000 decoder  will run on a track that is powered by DC/analog (either a direct transformer connection to track OR a non-PWM DC controller supplying at least 1Amp of current, with the  speed dial turned all of the way up) as the control of the loco itself, including the sound, can be done from your smartphone as long as there is either DC or DCC track power.

I would expect that dc running would be disabled in the TXS decoders, or they'd take off like a startled rabbit when placed on a track using the 'dc controller turned up to max' approach?

[Ian Hargrave]

3 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I would expect that dc running would be disabled in the TXS decoders, or they'd take off like a startled rabbit when placed on a track using the 'dc controller turned up to max' approach?

Not necessarily. The latest Bachmann offerings allow dcc sound use on dc analogue.I get quite reasonable response from a Gaugemaster Combi from position 4 and really excellent sound. 

[Michael Hodgson]

Agreed, but not everybody takes layouts and their rolling stock to shows.  If you have more stock than will fit on your layout (ring any bells with anybody?) then you need to keep some of it safely elsewhere.  It's not a hassle to put the items you're not currently using back into the original box and it protects them from dust and more importantly from accidental damage.

 

And if there's the possibility that at some future date you might want to sell certain items, for some unaccountable reason the box improves the price you'll get and again, it's ideal as part of the packaging you'll need to use if you're selling by post.

[Ravenser]

On 17/01/2023 at 12:08, JSpencer said:

 

In this day and age, Hornby need to recover costs in the first run. Re-runs seem to take a long time to organize. Even if they save the prettiest livery for run two (normally done to try and get a second sale from those who brought one in run one), by the time it appears, people have forgotten or have moved on to the next all-new model (and there are a lot of all-new coming out these days). We then often see run two in the bargain bin.

Now this almost certainly does not happen all the time, but we have seen enough cases with Hornby that it is no wonder they have money problems.

New comers are whacking a huge range of colours from day 1, including the prettiest.

They sold 500. Could do they another spin for another 500 next year? maybe but they really need things that will bring in money.

 

I suspect the subtle game changer (something that will turn Hornby around) probably won't be Dublo nor TT but instead could be HM7000. Will there be enough chips to sell though???

 

If this "soft tooling" technology, using lower cost aluminium tooling  rather than longlife steel, does indeed exist (and some have been implying it doesn't) then it really needs to be used on short run projects like this, and the B17/5. You are never ever ever going to make enough to justify the cost of tools with a 50 year life.....

 

Whether such tooling can cope with diecast metal is another question.

 

As for recovering all costs on the first run, and what that does to the economics with paid -off tooling , I give you the Drax Biomass wagons. £83 a wagon whjen first released. Recently knocked out at £25 a wagon. (There may have been an element of putting a shot across the bows of a competitor who has a comparable wagon, but I doubt Hornby ran them at a loss)

 

[Ravenser]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

Thanks for that. TTS fitted models cannot run on DC analogue. Am I correct in my assumption that the same will apply to TXS or is this as yet unknown? 

 

 

But if they are for collectors , then it doesn't matter - cos they won't be run. They will live in a display case or tucked up safely in their little boxes

 

It does beg the question  of why sound is fitted , but I suppose it allows an extra run of the things, and more options for the collector. The quality of the sound project probably doesn't matter either

[JSpencer]

7 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

If this "soft tooling" technology, using lower cost aluminium tooling  rather than longlife steel, does indeed exist (and some have been implying it doesn't) then it really needs to be used on short run projects like this, and the B17/5. You are never ever ever going to make enough to justify the cost of tools with a 50 year life.....

 

Whether such tooling can cope with diecast metal is another question.

 

As for recovering all costs on the first run, and what that does to the economics with paid -off tooling , I give you the Drax Biomass wagons. £83 a wagon whjen first released. Recently knocked out at £25 a wagon. (There may have been an element of putting a shot across the bows of a competitor who has a comparable wagon, but I doubt Hornby ran them at a loss)

 

 

I doubt Aluminum will be used for diecast. 385C and below melting point for die cast metals vs 660C for Aluminum.  But low carbon steel could be possible if you are not expecting many castings and intend to dispose of the tool after a short life. But it is far easier to cut and shape than high carbon stainless steel types. You can face harden low carbon steel too (though you would need to cater for possible distortions).

 

[AY Mod]

14 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

using lower cost aluminium tooling  rather than longlife steel, does indeed exist (and some have been implying it doesn't)

 

Please don't misrepresent me; I asked where your evidence was when you stated a particular manufacturer was using such. I know it exists and I know businesses that use it but I asked where your evidence was.

[Michael Hodgson]

 

16 minutes ago, thetrains said:

I've got all my loco (11) and coach (22) boxes so that when I kick the bucket my family will be able to dispose of more easily if the grandchildren don't want them, each loco photographed with class/model No. and boxes numbered, also instructions on layout dismantling sequence and wiring diagram DC..

The rolling stock will be saleable, and the instructions should help, but layouts don't usually sell at all easily because they don't fit in a diffferent house.  The wiring diagram is worth having - but only to help you maintain it while you're still around.

[GordonC]

18 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

If this "soft tooling" technology, using lower cost aluminium tooling  rather than longlife steel, does indeed exist (and some have been implying it doesn't) then it really needs to be used on short run projects like this, and the B17/5. You are never ever ever going to make enough to justify the cost of tools with a 50 year life.....

 

Whether such tooling can cope with diecast metal is another question.

 

As for recovering all costs on the first run, and what that does to the economics with paid -off tooling , I give you the Drax Biomass wagons. £83 a wagon whjen first released. Recently knocked out at £25 a wagon. (There may have been an element of putting a shot across the bows of a competitor who has a comparable wagon, but I doubt Hornby ran them at a loss)

 

 

The whole reason for the Drax biomass wagons being £83 each when first released was because 2000 were produced, 1000 for Drax to give away as corporate freebies while only 1000 were sold. When you bought one, you were essentially paying for a freebie that wasn't coming to you.

[Ravenser]

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

Please don't misrepresent me; I asked where your evidence was when you stated a particular manufacturer was using such. I know it exists and I know businesses that use it but I asked where your evidence was.

 

 

I'd understood from someone else's reaction that they seemed to be suggesting the whole thing was a rumour spread by someone beginning in D about his competitors .... Hence I was starting to wonder if the technology was something of an urban myth

 

There is a discussion to be had about whether the extra cost of "hard" tooling makes any sense these days. If we are in an environment where manufacturers should be planning to recover their whole tooling and development costs from the first 1 or 2 runs , then it's arguable "hard" tooling makes no sense.

 

I don't know whether "soft" tooling is compatible with diecast, but it would seem to make no economic sense to pay the extra money for steel tooling of plastic bodies for these exotic one offs . Including things like the B17/5 , W1, LMS Co-Cos , Blue Pullman, etc etc

 

Looking at the turbulent history of OO Class 37s, nobody has got more than 10 years out of a tool. If that's the case even with a high volume subject - what is the point of "hard" tools any more???

 

If OO RTR is slowly being garotted by rising cost , is this a cost that Hornby and others need to off-load?

 

But diecast may be a different ballgame.

 

It is quite difficult to see how a new-tooling project can be made to stack up on the basis of just 1500 examples