Rapido SECR O1 0-6-0 (OO Gauge)

[RapidoCorbs]

I had thought you meant it completes the set of SECR locos in preservation.

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, RapidoCorbs said:

I had thought you meant it completes the set of SECR locos in preservation.

We've already covered that two or three pages back ! .................... unfortunately, there's no surviving F1 ( no references to roundy-roundy motor racing, please ).

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

This is why I enjoy shed layouts. You can get away with basically every type of loco, ...

... though there's more to a railway than locomotives ......

 

[Fair Oak Junction]

2 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

... though there's more to a railway than locomotives ......

 

Well of course, but when you have next to no space available you have to make do with what you can 😉

[Edwardian]

So, rivets....

 

This, I take it, is the pre-Grouping in-service version....

 

 

There was a point, a few years ago, when manufacturers/commissioners started to produce models that were accurate to in-service pre-Grouping condition. Prior to that, the tooling being largely restricted to the physical form seen in Grouping and BR days, you either had no pre-Grouping version, or the pre-Grouping livery was the "as preserved" guise. One can look at Hornby's ex-LSWR T9 and Adams Radial for examples of locos that wear pre-Grouping livery in preservation guise. Hornby's ex-LSWR Black Motor, and Bachmann's ex-Midland 0-6-0s were examples of the same Grouping/BR condition tooling, but with no preserved version to put a pre-Grouping livery on. More relevant to this discussion is the Bachmann C Class. In full Wainwright livery it features the later Maunsell-era snap-head rivets (or whatever they're called) on the smokebox, which is accurate for the preserved example, but not suitable if wanting to represent the 1900s.

 

Then came a happy change. Commissioners and Manufacturers started, as standard, to issue in-service pre-Grouping versions, making tooling changes to back-date away later physical changes to the locos. The Dapol Terrier and SE&CR D Class, the Bachmann Caley Jumbo were relatively early examples. More have followed.

 

Charting these developments, as only a pre-Grouping obsessive could, I noticed two announcements on the cusp of this change, before a pre-Grouping in-service version became standard for models being announced. One was the ex-GER J70 tram loco, which Model Rail swore would not sell in a GER C53 guise, and the other announcement, rather caught out by this development, was the Hattons SE&CR P Class.

 

Hattons produced versions of the P in full Wainwright livery, suggesting both that it represented pre-Grouping condition (for that livery) and preservation condition. The tooling, though, featured Maunsell-era snap-head rivets on the smokebox and SR buffers, as per the preserved appearance. When this was pointed out to Hattons, they heroically added a set of bottle-shaped buffers to swop in to reflect SE&CR condition. Hattons could hardly do anything about the smokebox rivets. So, the P, at least in Wainwright livery, is a bit of a fudge. I am a happy owner of two Wainwright-liveried Ps (one with each tank height). Like the Bachmann C, before entering service on a layout, the rivets can be pared off.

 

To a large measure it was Locomotion and Rails that started to get particular about distinguishing pre-Grouping in service condition and preserved locos in pre-Grouping livery. The Locomotion as-preserved Box Hill has only very minor differences from the in-service model, down to the different colour lettering of the shed designation and the slightly shorter tool box of the preserved engine, if I recall. But they are there.

 

There followed the D Class. Here, for instance, the preserved engine carried an additional boiler band, over the firebox, duly given Wainwright lining. The model of the in-service D in Wainwright livery omits this feature, as it post-dated that livery in service. The in-service version also is also free of Maunsell smokebox rivets, as is, in this case, the cosmetically restored preserved version, but the models sporting Maunsell-era liveries and beyond include the rivets. I seem to recall the earliest example I came across of the rivets on the D was c.1911, after being rendered in the plainer lined livery. 

 

Thanks and congratulations if you have come this far. In summary, before it became standard to include a pre-Grouping in-service loco in a new release, Bachmann produced the preserved C in Wainwright livery with Maunsell rivets. As the practice of announcing pre-Grouping in-service versions took hold, Dapol/Rails produced the D in Wainwright livery without such rivets and without the later boiler band. Hattons, caught between these two differing approaches, gave you the option of accurate buffers for the Wainwright era Ps, but left you with the Maunsell rivets.  

 

What does this mean for the O1? Well, my question to Rapido would be whether we are to have a smooth, rivet free, smokebox face and wrapper for the in-service No.373 in fully lined Wainwright livery?

 

If we do not, it will not be accurate for the Wainwright period. I am conscious, however, that this is probably the only era/version, that would require a smooth smokebox. Later grey SECR and subsequent liveries, including the preserved condition, would all correctly feature these rivets. That is a significant tooling cost increase, I would imagine, for a single version. It would, however, be consistent with the standards of accuracy current in the market where pre-Grouping in-service variants are offered.     

 

 

 

  

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Edwardian
spelling

[Wickham Green too]

373 is shown in Bradley with a rivetted smokebox in 1923 - but who knows when that was acquired ? ( The former M3 tender was acquired in 1919 - so it was obviously in shops then. )

[Edwardian]

48 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

373 is shown in Bradley with a rivetted smokebox in 1923 - but who knows when that was acquired ? ( The former M3 tender was acquired in 1919 - so it was obviously in shops then. )

 

Perhaps it was done 17 years earlier and perhaps the Ancient Aliens did the rivetting?

 

In reality these prominent rivetted smokeboxes were clearly a Maunsell-era feature where SER and SE&CR classes are concerned. They simply do not feature on Wainwright and Stirling locomotives in Wainwright fully lined condition. Some time spent with the extant photographic record will confirm.

 

To short-cut possibly redundant further discusssion: Was I there? Have I a photograph of every loco running on the SE between 1899 and, say, 1910? No.

 

However, nor can I prove that Aliens did not build the pyramids.

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2023 by Edwardian
spelling

[Wickham Green too]

Perhaps you could wait to see what Rapido actually have in mind for this model - they have already said that each version is based on a photograph so with 373 being scrapped in 1951 I suspect it's not "as preserved with knobs on".

[Edwardian]

3 minutes ago, Wickham Green too said:

Perhaps you could wait to see what Rapido actually have in mind for this model - they have already said that each version is based on a photograph so with 373 being scrapped in 1951 I suspect it's not "as preserved with knobs on".

 

I simply posed the question

 

Perhaps you should stop trying to have an answer to everything

[Nile]

Better to ask the question now than wait until the tooling is done.

The renders on P.1 clearly show rivets. They also shows the indicator holders either side of the smokebox which are wrong for the Wainwright livery.

[Edwardian]

19 minutes ago, Nile said:

Better to ask the question now than wait until the tooling is done.

The renders on P.1 clearly show rivets. They also shows the indicator holders either side of the smokebox which are wrong for the Wainwright livery.

 

Thanks. Yes. of course it may just be a single render wearing different liveries at this stage. We cannot know what the intention maybe or even what decisions may have been made. So, yes, I should have thought the time to ask/flag any queries.  I have asked directly as well as posted here. 

[Jack P]

13 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

... though there's more to a railway than locomotives ......

 

 

Very off topic, but these look smashing in unlined olive with the Bulleid lettering/numerals! 

 

Did they run in unlined olive with Maunsell lettering?

[Wickham Green too]

According to https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-CoachingSets SECR-BirdcageC.html Set 618 was repainted 'olive' in November 1936 and revarnished November 1946 ( Set 622 received malachite green in August 1944 and was revarnished in February '47 ) - so should be correct for my mid '48 layout. ( Mis-matched droplights assumed to be later replacements ! )

[Mr chapman]

A birdcage long set would compliment the wagons and O1 nicely. One can dream...

[Wickham Green too]

Indeed - but there were no two the same, of course, and rarely any two similar vehicles in a set so where would anyone start ?

[Deeps]

1 hour ago, Wickham Green too said:

Indeed - but there were no two the same, of course, and rarely any two similar vehicles in a set so where would anyone start ?

Sounds like an ideal justification for Rule 1.

[RapidoCorbs]

A little update on the CAD - several people noticed the chimney proportions were 'off' - this has been amended, thank you to everyone who assisted.

Also shown is the flush-riveted smokebox variant :) 

 

Old on the left, new on the right.

 

[Edwardian]

48 minutes ago, RapidoCorbs said:

A little update on the CAD - several people noticed the chimney proportions were 'off' - this has been amended, thank you to everyone who assisted.

Also shown is the flush-riveted smokebox variant :) 

 

Old on the left, new on the right.

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

I have to say, I prefer your prose. 

[Miss Prism]

New chimney is looking much better!

 

[Edwardian]

21 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I have to say, I prefer your prose. 

 

I might be smiling, but I'm clearly still jaundiced

[Ventnor]

7 hours ago, RapidoCorbs said:

A little update on the CAD - several people noticed the chimney proportions were 'off' - this has been amended, thank you to everyone who assisted.

Also shown is the flush-riveted smokebox variant :) 

 

Old on the left, new on the right.

 

Thanks Corbs

 

The new version of the chimney looks great!!

 

Cheers

 

Andy.

 

[NHY 581]

Tidy. 

[Edwardian]

On 28/11/2023 at 08:17, Fair Oak Junction said:

This is why I enjoy shed layouts. You can get away with basically every type of loco, from biggest express engine to humblest tank engine, and do it in a small space 👌

Not as operationally pleasing, but very visually pleasing!

 

Quite agree!  😉

 

[RapidoCorbs]

Well it's the first Friday of the month, so it's time for a rejected livery on our social media posts.

This instalment pontificates on what the O1 might look like in the same livery as P Class 'Bluebell' complete with Bluebell Railway crest.

Looks rather nice, shame really.....