Karhedron Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 .....although isn't black probably one of the easiest liveries for the enthusiast modeller to undertake themselves? Why not have a go a re-painting one and show us how you get on. I'd find that more interesting than reading about which loco liveries and numbers manufacturers should select. Black is easy, the lining somewhat less so. Could I paint a loco in lined black? Yes, I think I could. Would it be to the same standard of finish as Dapol and Farish's recent RTR offerings? Not likely. I am not asking for a one-oof or unusual livery, the entire class wore lined black for 7-8 years. If a RTR version is not forthcoming then I might consider repainting but I am sure I am not the only modeller to hesitate a the thought of ruining a pristine £100+ loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I agree with your comments David. In addition I feel theat Dapol's statement “the most accurate and realistic Class 52 ‘Western’ yet manufactured†is very brave indeed. History has proven this to be very difficult if not impossible. Both Hornby and Lima discovered the tight limitations of bogie/front skirt thirty years ago. Any recent producer has had a choice of accurate representation versus bogie travel. Heljan tried their best with accurate bogie spacing and front skirts but at the expense of brake detail. Fix the brakes rods and bogie swing is severely restricted. Lima shorted the skirts to allow running on minimum radius curves. In my opinion Lima's solution is the most subtle and allows modellers like my self, with modest curves, run a 52. Dapol's new model that must go round unrealtistic curves compared to the real thing. How many of us have minimum radius of 4ft, as that is what will be required for “the most accurate and realistic Class 52 ‘Western"? I have had to scratch build the brake gear to fit my Heljan AND enable it to go through Peco medium radius points. Dapol have a real challenge on their hands and I look forward to see how they resolve it.` Dapol's list of new releases gets longer and longer and, having suffered from the Dapol OO Pendolino problems, personally I want to see how the 63XX performs before I start preordering anything. Mike Wiltshire Dapol Press release October 2010 stated:- “New items under development will only be announced to the press, trade and public 1 month before they are due to be in the shops.†At the Warley Exhibition December 2010 Dapol announced DP2 in ‘OO’ Gauge. Reading the latest addition of Model Rail is confirmation of DP2. In the same magazine Bachmann advise that there are numerous variations of the LMS Twins to be taken into consideration. Dapol also announce that there will be a delay in producing their version of the LMS Twins because it has come to their attention that there are more variations that they first thought. Research / October 2010 Press release? Dapol have since placed their DP2 production on hold. That’s going to make interesting reading in the model press. I placed a pre-release order for a D6300 / Class 22 just approaching 2 years ago and am still waiting, not a problem as there were some issues with losing the original drawings and presumably their back-ups. Dapol have just announced “the most accurate and realistic Class 52 ‘Western’ yet manufacturedâ€. I think that Dapol need to learn to walk before they run, there is so much at stake with the D6300 (and it’s successors) that they can’t afford not to get it 100% right, first time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I've held off saying this for a long time, but it concerns me a little how so many are pinning their hopes on Dapol to fill the gaps that others can't. To borrow a phrase from a friend, Dapol are raising a lot of expectations at the minute - I would actually like to be able to come back in a few months or a year and see that they're fulfilling them. Totally agree with you Pennine. The yardstick which I was intending to use for Dapol 4mm powered rolling stock was the "Thumper". Sadly that option is probably handed to the D63xx. I really hope Dave's company get it right because there is so much riding on it. I have a single Heljan D1058 salted away, and will wait to see whether it will be replaced. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted January 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2011 without wishing to cause a stir....am still awaiting that 121 Bubble car.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Does this give the Western the record for the most models of any locomotive in 'OO'? I count five: Trix, Hornby, Lima, Heljan and now Dapol; I don't think any other class exceeds 4 (the class 47 might have had Trix made it; they *did* announce it, but as far as I'm aware it was never made). No it wasnt (Trix 47), and neither was their other Very Useful Engine the Black 5. Splitting hairs for completeness (it's the same model anyway), the Trix Wessie was also later marketed by Lilliput. As for 'most modelled', there have been three distinct incarnations of the 08 from Margate*, one from Lima and one from Bachmann - also five. The 37 is a contender, but rather debatable, with Triang, Lima and AFAIK four Bachmann toolings, which are arguably not the 'same' model. * Although the inside frame versions probably only just count as 'models' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium rprodgers Posted January 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2011 Black is easy, the lining somewhat less so. Could I paint a loco in lined black? Yes, I think I could. Would it be to the same standard of finish as Dapol and Farish's recent RTR offerings? Not likely. I am not asking for a one-oof or unusual livery, the entire class wore lined black for 7-8 years. If a RTR version is not forthcoming then I might consider repainting but I am sure I am not the only modeller to hesitate a the thought of ruining a pristine £100+ loco. Very pleased to hear the news about the hall will certainly be buying one or two. On the issue of liveries personally I am not a great fan of Dapol's rendition of BR lined green both with shade of green and the lining - the green always looks washed out and doesnt compare to the newer GF versions reference a Royal Scot I saw and was most impressed by ...but dont need Having repainted some old class 37's in rail freight livery I figure repainting the green cannot be much harder as long as the paint is well mixed and slightly thinned it can be brush painted a panel at a time and with care and time spent a decent finish can be obtained. For this reason I wasnt to bothered buying a black Manor by Ixion and either this or the hall will be repainted using some Fox lining transfers, I acquired for an old GF Castle that now languishes on a shelf that I cannot bear to look at never mind repaint and must get rid of before a more accurate one is made (fingers crossed ) R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 What was seen at Aylesbury last year was the cab of my Western, which was part of I kit I have been developing. Unfortunately, the company who did the stereo lithography for me couldn't do the body in one go and had to keep breaking it into smaller and smaller pieces, to the extent that this particular approach became impractical. It also suffered from steps as a result of the process used. Incidentally, mine will take 5' radius curves in P4 with no compromises to the brakes, or valences, so there is no reason why a 00 model should not be able to negotiate tighter curves, but maybe not train set radius with careful thought in the design. This had absolutely nothing to do with Brass Masters or anybody else, it is 100% my own work. I allowed JLTRT to use my cadds file when they were developing their own Western, although there are several areas where they did their own thing. Hence the wrong shape above the cab roof and the radius of the engine room window corners. You can see my prototype here: www.Quality-Diesel-Kits.co.uk Regards Mark Humphrys Seems odd to just build the cab of a loco. Brassmasters have a very good kit to correct the errors on the Lima model, I think its likely you saw that. Anyone who has done one of the Brassmasters kits will be under no illusion as to how poor the Lima front end is, and the Heljan version is easier to make look far better with less effort than the Lima model. The Hj price is/was under the magic £100 glass ceiling, and with care the brake gear can be modified to make the loco go round Peco Med radius Cd100/75 curves on their points. I too am very interested to see how Dapol engineer the front of their model to allow it to go through such curves or tighter, whilst achieving 'the most accurate and realistic OO gauge Class 52 ‘Western’ yet manufactured'. I read that to mean the front end should be 'solid' like the Lima/HJ variants rather than split as per Hornby's. With the JLTRT cad they are off to a very good start and I hope they make the best of them, they'll need to to make the Hj buyers change their Westerns as I'm not convinced there is a huge market out there for a 'new' model. On the exhibition circuit there doesn't seem to be a large number of 'Western 10xx' Western region main line era layouts, and that is also reflected here in the layouts section. With the possibility of a Hornby Railroad budget model, and Hj multi livery (47 style) name your own mid-high price version, it's a brave choice they've made. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahame Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Black is easy, the lining somewhat less so. Could I paint a loco in lined black? Yes, I think I could. Would it be to the same standard of finish as Dapol and Farish's recent RTR offerings? Not likely. Does that really matter. Using either an aerosol can or air-brush you'll get a very acceptable 'professional' finish and the lining can be carried out with transfers/decals. By having a go you'll be getting experience and that's the only way to get better at it. Having repainted some old class 37's in rail freight livery I figure repainting the green cannot be much harder as long as the paint is well mixed and slightly thinned it can be brush painted a panel at a time and with care and time spent a decent finish can be obtained. For this reason I wasnt to bothered buying a black Manor by Ixion and either this or the hall will be repainted using some Fox lining transfers, I acquired for an old GF Castle that now languishes on a shelf that I cannot bear to look at never mind repaint and must get rid of before a more accurate one is made There's some advise about getting a decent finish. And it also seems to encapsulate the spirit of modelling; having a go yourself. It can be great fun and the feeling of pride and satisfaction with a completed project is second to one (even if it's not quite as good as a RTR offering). G. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium romley midland Posted January 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2011 Does that really matter. Using either an aerosol can or air-brush you'll get a very acceptable 'professional' finish and the lining can be carried out with transfers/decals. By having a go you'll be getting experience and that's the only way to get better at it. There's some advise about getting a decent finish. And it also seems to encapsulate the spirit of modelling; having a go yourself. It can be great fun and the feeling of pride and satisfaction with a completed project is second to one (even if it's not quite as good as a RTR offering). G. If that's so then Grahame, why are you always moaning on about wanting RTR EMUs, there are plenty of kits for them out there so stop moaning! Richard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheDukeOfWellingtons Posted January 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 9, 2011 I'm not convinced there is a huge market out there for a 'new' model. On the exhibition circuit there doesn't seem to be a large number of 'Western 10xx' Western region main line era layouts, and that is also reflected here in the layouts section. Maybe we'll see a big increase in this area if the Dapol model lives up to expectations. Certainly my layout will become a WR diesel layout if this is the case. I even pre-ordered a D600 Warship in the hope of a more appealing Western being announced eventually. I'm well pleased I didn't have to wait very long. A couple of Class 22s are now also on the shopping list. The announcement that the Western will be the most accurate 00 scale Class 52 ever produced isn't a particularly brave one when you consider the benchmark against which it will be judged. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I've held off saying this for a long time, but it concerns me a little how so many are pinning their hopes on Dapol to fill the gaps that others can't. To borrow a phrase from a friend, Dapol are raising a lot of expectations at the minute - I would actually like to be able to come back in a few months or a year and see that they're fulfilling them. When I put my post on a few days ago briefly commenting on the wise decision by a fellow member of RM Web to wait and see, and particularly in the light of the Stove R. I was holding back a little bit myself. Nothing Dapol has produced so far has given me any confidence - and thats including the N gauge stuff, can't help thinking here they have found a cash cow that modellers, starved of anything at all in RTR 2mm for so long, and perhaps not quite as discerning as many 4mm modellers have jumped on and can make a quick buck at. Their 4mm products so far just dont cut the mustard. My wallet as far as this manufacturer is concerned remains firmly in the pocket, ni matter what they promise and to be quite honest that the way it will remain until as Ian quite rightly points out, they actually produce the goods which meets all their promises. It all rather reminds me of an A level history lesson many years ago about the South Sea Bubble. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tricky-CRS Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Andy I think you are wrong on the 2mm front the Collet coaches are excellent as are the Hymecks and later 9f's. They have fallen behind on promises for various reasons. The fact that the amount of cheap NQP loco's at the open day's has dropped proves this. The new steam loco's have all gone down well. I think the level of detail and realism on N is far better than OO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I think the level of detail and realism on N is far better than OO. I 'll have a pint of whatever you had lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Theres been the fair share of "N" not quite rights - the numerous "improved" motors for the 66s, the lack of pick ups and bogie problems on the early 9Fs, the use of 2mm scale standards rather than N for coach wheels (ie original B sets), various livery errors (the lined maroon autocoach for example), wide reported problems with Prairie tanks and 73s self destructing, the bogie positioning on the Gresleys, dimensional errors with the B1, and the current need to use cross-head screws on coupling rods. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted January 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 9, 2011 Nothing Dapol has produced so far has given me any confidence - and thats including the N gauge stuff, can't help thinking here they have found a cash cow that modellers, starved of anything at all in RTR 2mm for so long, and perhaps not quite as discerning as many 4mm modellers have jumped on and can make a quick buck at. Their 4mm products so far just dont cut the mustard. So the Dapol FEA-B (in 4mm, the 2mm is wrong), the 2mm 67 or 86 don't cut the mustard? Given the choice I would much rather have the Dapol 86 than the Heljan 86 or the Dapol 67 than the Limby 67... There is hardly a starvation of 2mm products since Farish shifted production to China following the Bachmann takeover. It took them some time, but I would suggest your views are at least 3-5 years out of date. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Correct me if Im wrong here Red Death but Dapol started to make their foray into the 2mm world about 3 - 5 years ago which rather backs my point about tapping into a less discerning market. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluex5 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 I think the level of detail and realism on N is far better than OO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mozzer models Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Correct me if Im wrong here Red Death but Dapol started to make their foray into the 2mm world about 3 - 5 years ago which rather backs my point about tapping into a less discerning market. I think the N gauge 14xx came out about 7 years ago Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 At the moment though we wonder if it's Marlboro man, or the Milky Bar Kid... Oh, didnt know it was going to be resin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercig studios Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 which rather backs my point about tapping into a less discerning market Are you actually basing that on any fact..... are you privy to some marketing data that proves that there is less of a percentage of N Gauge modellers that are what you call 'discerning' than their 00 brothers? The 67,86 and 58 have all been excellent and put the 00 versions to shame....but there again seeing as I model N Gauge I would probably be happy with something that looked like the back end of a bus! M Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted January 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2011 Correct me if Im wrong here Red Death but Dapol started to make their foray into the 2mm world about 3 - 5 years ago which rather backs my point about tapping into a less discerning market. Errr how does that back up your point, if Dapol are producing items better than the 4mm equivalents? Does that mean that anyone who buys a 4mm 67 or 86 is part of a less discerning market??? My point was that your comment about nothing Dapol have done giving you any confidence and that N gauge modellers being less discerning does not seem to based on much knowledge of what Dapol have done in N gauge. I am first to admit that not everything has been great (I don't particularly like the compromises in the 156 underframe and the FEA-B is just plain wrong), but your casual dismissal of everything Dapol have done doesn't really stack up. Dapol's first stuff came out in 2004 (class 73 etc). Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted January 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2011 When I put my post on a few days ago briefly commenting on the wise decision by a fellow member of RM Web to wait and see, and particularly in the light of the Stove R. I was holding back a little bit myself. Nothing Dapol has produced so far has given me any confidence - and thats including the N gauge stuff, can't help thinking here they have found a cash cow that modellers, starved of anything at all in RTR 2mm for so long, and perhaps not quite as discerning as many 4mm modellers have jumped on and can make a quick buck at. Their 4mm products so far just dont cut the mustard. My wallet as far as this manufacturer is concerned remains firmly in the pocket, ni matter what they promise and to be quite honest that the way it will remain until as Ian quite rightly points out, they actually produce the goods which meets all their promises. It all rather reminds me of an A level history lesson many years ago about the South Sea Bubble. To be fair to them the D63XX looks pretty good and seems to have captured the prototype appearance quite well. Dapol Dave seems to have things well under control on that project and was quick to point out (when I criticised at Warley) that the paint job was a quickie and not the final thing so I'm happy with those aspects of it but the only way the mechanicals can be assessed is once it's out of course - I can't judge on that until I see it. I think Dapol (and possibly Heljan) suffer consistency problems as much as anything else and one product isn't necessarily a guide for what another will be like. That is not a good state for a company to be in and it is one, like a gastro pub, run by a well known tv chef, which I purposely avoid - if quality is not consistent you don't know what you can expect. But I am at least prepared to give Dapol a go, and send back anything which is not up to scratch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted January 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 10, 2011 Could I also ask...... consider producing locos with the shortest names (if possible) so that if we choose to rename a loco we don't have to destroy the paintwork by masking out a model of say WESTERM AMBASSADOR to make a WESTERN HERO. Thank you chaps If it's "correct", I will certainly buy a couple of OO Westerns, so I agree entirely about names. And preferably Westerns with headboard clips as the most common form (so not D1029). D1029 is a odd choice anyway - did anyone notice the spelling differences in Andy's original post. One "n" for N gauge but two for OO. Can't remember when the plates were corrected, but Dapol will need to check that too. Far better to go for a different loco with a short name - please Dapol. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leachsprite4 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I am equally fond and critical of both Bachmann and Dapol but I thought I would try and add some views. Dapol have produced some great products in n gauge since its arrival and really Bachmann have only started to deliver significant numbers of new products in the same timescale for n gauge. Personally I feel the two companies are pushing the other forward which is benefitting the modeller with some excellent models. The more we can assist both companies with our comments and highlighting technical details with models they may have overlooked or not been aware of then I am sure they would appreciate it. This is a downside to Bachmann as early versions or drawings of models are not always publicly available. In the same way we must appreciate that demands do change as do priorities so there is a need for companies to change products, which could explain the delays while the market is developed or changes. ? re the maroon autocoach with yellow line, I am sure I have a photo of one of these in the 60's in use in Devon? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D1059 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Oh dear I'm drooling already - I'll get 2 Wizzos in N for definite So, thats the Hymek, Warships and 14 down and paid for, Westerns in the pipeline, so PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE Dapol, announce the 22 in N as well. With the announcement of Westerns in N and OO it makes no sense to keep the 22 as OO only. Now all I have to do is build the new layout STEVE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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