RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 8, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2022 I dont think the market could stand a 4th class 66 model at this time. Everyones got armfuls of 66’s at this point, in Lima, Railroad, Bachmann and Hattons the whole market is covered, from toy store to delicate model. But for detailed ones, they need the intricacies of each prototype including, which has a price tag, ignore those details then you may as well buy a cheaper one anyway. New liveries there is space, trouble is many of them are on the Euro imports, and each one is unique… and the future will only ever be more Euro imports as thats where the supply is, aside of Egypt and Gabon. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Global Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 17 hours ago, TomScrut said: I completely agree with all of this. AS have not given us any reason to doubt their ability to deliver, but ultimately they are still unproven and if the clock was wound back 2 years this model was the best thing since sliced bread and look how it turned out. I don't think it will have been a disaster but not a roaring success story either. I would like Hattons to do more of them. If they are minus the issues of the first ones they will be fantastic. Whilst no loco has arrived with AS on the box yet I don’t agree, and think slightly unfair, with saying they're unproven as the IRM model clearly shows the standard and care that AS/IRM are putting into their models, and the standard we can expect from something with AS on the box. I don’t recall hundreds of pages of complaints about the A Class arriving as a kit and I find this thread quite interesting in seeing how different companies deal with issues. Hattons way was clearly to bury head in sand and just keep quiet whilst one dodgy loco after another arrived with customers. And for that reason I don’t think I’d trust them either to deliver or deal with anything going forward - even if they announced something I really wanted I think I’d pass! AS in contrast would, I believe, be all over any issues, in the unlikely event of there being any, and not just hoping the problem goes away. 3 4 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted March 8, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2022 10 hours ago, YesTor said: Kind of - although perhaps less of a compromise than some of the Euro examples would be - but as far as 66779 is concerned (and all of the latter UK batch built for GBRf for that matter), such things as larger sandboxes and a distinct cab-front ridge between the windscreen and the front yellow warning panel can be seen on 66779: The Euro examples differ again from one machine to another - as some came from Germany, Holland etc and at different times - so expect variations in fuel tanks, horn grilles, headlight clusters, marker lights, cab front handrails, bufferbeam steps, lamp irons and bufferbeam pipework. Rarely do any pair seem to be identical, as on arrival in the UK some were modified/reverted further whilst others not so... In short, check photos for the specific machine you wish to model. Al And Bachmann never fitted the bell...... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
69843 Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 50 minutes ago, newbryford said: And Bachmann never fitted the bell...... Ah but they did...only if you got the NRM variant. Which is an odd detail to not put on the standard edition but to have on the limited edition 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted March 8, 2022 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2022 35 minutes ago, 69843 said: Ah but they did...only if you got the NRM variant. Which is an odd detail to not put on the standard edition but to have on the limited edition Oh Bells! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 11 hours ago, YesTor said: Kind of - although perhaps less of a compromise than some of the Euro examples would be - but as far as 66779 is concerned (and all of the latter UK batch built for GBRf for that matter), such things as larger sandboxes and a distinct cab-front ridge between the windscreen and the front yellow warning panel can be seen on 66779: The Euro examples differ again from one machine to another - as some came from Germany, Holland etc and at different times - so expect variations in fuel tanks, horn grilles, headlight clusters, marker lights, cab front handrails, bufferbeam steps, lamp irons and bufferbeam pipework. Rarely do any pair seem to be identical, as on arrival in the UK some were modified/reverted further whilst others not so... In short, check photos for the specific machine you wish to model. Al It's those horrifically long buffers and the (literal) pain in the backside duplicated pipes that are a pain on the ex European 'Eurocabs'. From a model perspective, the initial three conversions (747-749) gained UK buffers and other than the cab interior are now pretty much UK spec low emission machines (like 728-732, 582 upwards, 421 upwards) but with a full size fuel tank and a larger surround to the top light. The ex Swedish machines (790-792) have UK style cab interiors. Jo 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 2 hours ago, newbryford said: And Bachmann never fitted the bell...... Although the NRM ones did come with them! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) 8 hours ago, Global said: Whilst no loco has arrived with AS on the box yet I don’t agree, and think slightly unfair, with saying they're unproven as the IRM model clearly shows the standard and care that AS/IRM are putting into their models, and the standard we can expect from something with AS on the box. I don't think one excellent model is proving excellence either, in the same way as Hornby make a lot of excellent products but are seen in the market (in my opinion) as lacking in quality because of the products that aren't. Ultimately the amount of moneys worth I have on pre order with AS justifies the confidence I have in them to deliver a good product, but I still stand by my reckoning of them being unproven in the loco market. As far as I am aware the 66 wasn't Hattons' first loco either (willing to be corrected otherwise). A reputation for excellence has to be earned over a longer time period than one model in my opinion. Let's hope this time next year they will have earned it with a 55, 4 37s and a 92, along with whatever else they sell me in the meantime. On 07/03/2022 at 15:36, TomScrut said: AS have not given us any reason to doubt their ability to deliver And don't forget that I prefaced the whole statement with this. They definitely haven't done anything wrong in my opinion. 8 hours ago, Global said: I don’t recall hundreds of pages of complaints about the A Class arriving as a kit and I find this thread quite interesting in seeing how different companies deal with issues. With all due respect to it, even if it had arrived as a kit I doubt it would have had the amount of stink kicked up that this had. The Irish market is smaller (I think it is fair to say) and in terms of the 66 in the UK market I don't think there is a loco with as big a customer base as it. But I do think the best way to judge people is to see how they act when things aren't so good. Yes Hattons have been silent on here but were excellent in the process of me returning several 66s repeatedly. 6 hours ago, 69843 said: Ah but they did...only if you got the NRM variant. Which is an odd detail to not put on the standard edition but to have on the limited edition Has anyone got one of the later releases, does that have the bell in? As far as I am aware they did a standard and NRM release about the same time, then another one more recently (the sound version of which is imminent). Edited March 8, 2022 by TomScrut Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
virginhst539 Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 24 minutes ago, TomScrut said: Has anyone got one of the later releases, does that have the bell in? As far as I am aware they did a standard and NRM release about the same time, then another one more recently (the sound version of which is imminent). I got the standard Bachmann release and it did not come with the bell. one was bought off the usual auction site from a guy with a 3d printer. One thing I have noticed with Hattons which is not limited to the class 66 is the lack of re runs on products. I understand that factory/company who produced the models for them have there own products to deal with but there is a market there for them. Modern warwells, Network rail Beilhack, Andrew Barclay 0-4-0 and the class 66s are all fetching silly money if you can find them that is! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ews60002 Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 8 hours ago, adb968008 said: Everyones got armfuls of 66’s at this point, in Lima, Railroad, Bachmann and Hattons the whole market is covered, from toy store to delicate model. Can I be the odd one out in saying that I have 17 Loco's and not 1 loco is a class 66. I have 2 Class 08, 5 class 37, 4 Class 56, 1 Class 60, 6 Class 68 and on order are 1 Class 92 I don't find the 66 appealing whereas the 56 and 60 have more layout appeal. Mathew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted March 8, 2022 Share Posted March 8, 2022 1 hour ago, ews60002 said: Can I be the odd one out in saying that I have 17 Loco's and not 1 loco is a class 66. A lot of it depends on what era you're interested in. Anyone who is strict about modelling freight in the UK in the last 20 years is going to struggle to call it realistic without a 66 IMO. 2 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted March 8, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2022 3 hours ago, TomScrut said: And don't forget that I prefaced the whole statement with this. They definitely haven't done anything wrong in my opinion. Whilst you are right that they have given us no reason to doubt them, what you failed to note is that they have given a lot of reasons to trust in them. They can’t do the former without failing, something they strive to avoid. Roy 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john new Posted March 8, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, virginhst539 said: I got the standard Bachmann release and it did not come with the bell. one was bought off the usual auction site from a guy with a 3d printer. One thing I have noticed with Hattons which is not limited to the class 66 is the lack of re runs on products. I understand that factory/company who produced the models for them have there own products to deal with but there is a market there for them. Modern warwells, Network rail Beilhack, Andrew Barclay 0-4-0 and the class 66s are all fetching silly money if you can find them that is! Not just Hattons, not just locos. Try finding a bog-standard grey 16T mineral wagon that isn't a kit. Bought an Oxford 12T planked BR wagon around 3 months ago, went back to get a 2nd one, no. None on line either that I can see of the BR version, they are now doing NE liveried examples. It has got silly and is getting sillier. Edited March 8, 2022 by john new Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 13 hours ago, Roy Langridge said: Whilst you are right that they have given us no reason to doubt them, what you failed to note is that they have given a lot of reasons to trust in them. They can’t do the former without failing, something they strive to avoid. Roy They do, and I should have worded that part that way in hindsight. I feel my suggestion of them being unproven in the loco market (one swallow doesn't make a summer IMO) is being misinterpreted as me expecting the worst/trying to bash them/whatever, when in fact it isn't that at all. I expect them to be excellent, but I don't think a reputation, i.e. being proven (in a particular market), should be earned with one product no matter how good (or bad) it is. We know AS's wagons are excellent, as well as their customer service. Hence why I expect their locos to be excellent too. In contrast, based on what is becoming a proven record IMO, I have doubts about products I have my eye on from some other manufacturers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 9, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) 22 hours ago, Steadfast said: It's those horrifically long buffers and the (literal) pain in the backside duplicated pipes that are a pain on the ex European 'Eurocabs'. From a model perspective, the initial three conversions (747-749) gained UK buffers and other than the cab interior are now pretty much UK spec low emission machines (like 728-732, 582 upwards, 421 upwards) but with a full size fuel tank and a larger surround to the top light. The ex Swedish machines (790-792) have UK style cab interiors. Jo The swedish ones are externally quite different, different cabs styles, windows, handrails, buffers, lifting lugs, front steps, the hornbox is extended and some roof welding is different. i covered it 100 or so pages back. Not impossible to model, but not easy. Thing is if you dont care, then Hornby is delivering the liveries. If you care, no one has done it so they are all as good as any other for detail and dimensional accuracy.. though i’d start with Bachmann or Hattons myself. the difference is in the number of separate parts vs moulded, and quality of mechanism. Edited March 9, 2022 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dj_crisp Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 The Hattons shed is one of my favourite models tbh. Always fun to weather a messy one! I admit to gluing alot of the details so hopefully most won't fall off.... and my axle boxes no longer rotate but the detail looks amazing IMO and I'm not sure what could be improved by another manufacturer (possibly the depth of the recess under the roof grill??). Lights also fixed with an improved circuit board. Possibly one area that I may look into one day is improving the front glazing but other than that this one is done. I've now got all of the sheds I will ever need but still hope Hattons release some more...! Cheers Will 11 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 On 06/03/2022 at 13:29, Torbay Express said: I know it's probably a little controversial but from a strategic perspective - a Class 66 would fit exceptionally well in the Accurascale range...... Firstly lots of liveries and variations, good sales potential due to wide appeal, compliments the wagon range, there is still the ability to produce the ultimate version and with its excellent manufacturing base, ability to schedule production runs - unlike current Liverpool version. The Liverpoool version isnt far off and set the bar incredibly high for the next class 66 model. The more recent models have had DCC control used to its fullest, including light functions and sound. This should have been done from the start but now they are doing it. Add in extra features such as the axle boxes and all the detail and this could have been a model that did push the boundries and set new standards. Its clear that on paper the design should all work as it should. The contacts for lights, features, controls all work on the majority of models and the sound fitted models completely vanished faster than loo-rolls before a lockdown. Its only that transport, actual use (including on some lines built with track thats gauged too tight) and having lifted the body from the chassis that some issues have been highlighted. I expect tweaks are being worked on the model so that these are overcome. As a result a high-spec Accurascale model would find it runs against the Liverpool version and in that market both would face competition from those undercutting it, rather than aim for a model where the Next-Gen DCC hi spec model hasnt been done yet and thus stand a much better chance of fast, strong and economic sales. Thus I think Accurascale will avoid the 66... a class 50 however.... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 5 hours ago, adb968008 said: The swedish ones are externally quite different, different cabs styles, windows, handrails, buffers, lifting lugs, front steps, the hornbox is extended and some roof welding is different. Never said they weren't, just thought people might be interested to know not all the Eurocabs have Euro controls, these three have UK style interiors. - Windows are standard double glazed as found low emissions locos and retro fitted to most other GB machines. - Handrails, yes they're cut short. - Buffers and pipes "standard" Euro style. - Lugs and main steps the same, missing the ones under the buffers. - Horn box standard UK style as the Swedish ones originally had horns on the roof. - Roof has lots of witness marks and bolt heads where equipment was removed. - Top marker light box is huge, Euro style. - Fuel tank has some extra blanked off fittings. If Hattons released this, the tooling they used for the Cemex and Biffa machines would be the closest, with different bufferbeam details. Beyond that you'd be lucky to get a manufacturer to get that loco specific. Of course, Hatton haven't tooled this light setup, despite it being quite common across the DB, GB and FL 66s. Though their chunky light clusters do give the look of it. Pics linked from Flickr to compare with lifelong UK machine 703, which is ostensibly the same spec. Not sure why I'm that interested in 66s in a naff livery in the wrong scale, but there we go. Jo 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 9, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Steadfast said: Never said they weren't, just thought people might be interested to know not all the Eurocabs have Euro controls, these three have UK style interiors. - Windows are standard double glazed as found low emissions locos and retro fitted to most other GB machines. - Handrails, yes they're cut short. - Buffers and pipes "standard" Euro style. - Lugs and main steps the same, missing the ones under the buffers. - Horn box standard UK style as the Swedish ones originally had horns on the roof. - Roof has lots of witness marks and bolt heads where equipment was removed. - Top marker light box is huge, Euro style. - Fuel tank has some extra blanked off fittings. Each one is uniquely different… 66790 above <> 66793 here… (66792 <>66790 either for that matter ) You do need to research your exact prototype on the new imports. One of the more distinguishing features being the Horn box.. this is a pretty big feature to ignore.. plus buffers / pipes .. yet 3 of those have more interesting liveries. The front air dams are also more curved on the side edges (which is why the steps are different ). Some have different sandboxes to. It doesnt stop Hornby, but it should be something you’d expect from the others… I see one of them even has different guttering above the door. Edited March 9, 2022 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steadfast Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 hour ago, adb968008 said: Each one is uniquely different… 66790 above <> 66793 here… (66792 <>66790 either for that matter ) You do need to research your exact prototype on the new imports. Absolutely right. 790 -792 are relatively similar to each other as they're the ex Sweden trio. 793 has the chunky horn grill because it's ex Germany. The longer rainstrip over the door you mention is a feature of the very last four door 66s and all low emission machines. In the UK builds, the last Freightliner (and now ex Freightliner too) 4 door locos feature this, as do the Euro ones that became 795, 796 and 798. Jo 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ews60002 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 On 08/03/2022 at 18:19, TomScrut said: A lot of it depends on what era you're interested in. Anyone who is strict about modelling freight in the UK in the last 20 years is going to struggle to call it realistic without a 66 IMO. No era to be honest, I just like a steel train to have a 60 or a 56 on it or stone train to have a 60 hauling it. A friend does have the saying, it's my layout and I'll run whatever I want. 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold big jim Posted March 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2022 Spot the diffence, uk low emission 66721 and euro import low emission 66748 must admit I’ve never noticed the top marker light on the euro specs being a larger housing until mentioned in this thread internally this is a uk standard cab And this is a euro cab (most have a flip down 2nd mans seat but some have a normal one as per the uk spec locos ao many variations with the class! 2 5 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomScrut Posted March 10, 2022 Share Posted March 10, 2022 17 hours ago, ews60002 said: No era to be honest, I just like a steel train to have a 60 or a 56 on it or stone train to have a 60 hauling it. A friend does have the saying, it's my layout and I'll run whatever I want. The thing with rule 1 is that it does work both ways.. 1. You can run any combination of pretty much anything, because it is your layout. 2. You only run stuff you know to be prototypical and attempt to make your stock choices be realistic for your era/region because it is your layout. I lean towards the 2nd one, where if I think something is not a massive leap of the imagination then I will run it. For example I tend to run wagons with locos/operators that pull them in real life, which means given I am interested in 2020-present that 66s are pretty much compulsory. OTOH I have just bought the new Bachmann 90028 and since I am interested in Yorkshire ECML the only situation I am going to see that running is on a charter, so that's what I have it doing. Being fussy in this regard also helps me, because there is lots of stuff I like, but I cannot afford it all and so being strict on region and era works well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, big jim said: Spot the diffence, uk low emission 66721 and euro import low emission 66748 must admit I’ve never noticed the top marker light on the euro specs being a larger housing until mentioned in this thread internally this is a uk standard cab And this is a euro cab (most have a flip down 2nd mans seat but some have a normal one as per the uk spec locos ao many variations with the class! My favourite thing about Hattons 66 is there attention to detail. ignoring the headlight, spot light, sandboxes, airpipes, front steps, lifting lug, wheels guards in those two above.. The most subtle difference is the front handrail below the window, with the extra support in the middle…. Hattons actually caught that… For example… 66623 here has the handrail type of 66748 https://www.hattons.co.uk/stockdetail?sid=498930 where as 66721’s more traditional handrails are seen here on a DBS one.. https://www.hattons.co.uk/365769/hattons_originals_h4_66_006_class_66_66097_in_db_schenker_livery/stockdetail qq Jim, have you had any of the Euro ones with the protruding Hornboxes ? Do you know why they are protruding is there something in the cab needing to push it out ? Edited March 10, 2022 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 10, 2022 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 10, 2022 (edited) Talking of which…. just 16 G&W class 66’s left and then its game over for the Hattons 66…. So who at this point, who has more 66’s than Hattons ? Edited March 10, 2022 by adb968008 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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