KR Models announce the Fell in OO and N.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

You make it sound like "the market" is wrong. It isn't, this is a descretionary, luxury product. People can vote with their wallets. If other manufacturers look and decide they can do less research and reduce prices, that is their call, and something that, if you look at other threads, much of the market would be very pleased with.

 

Exactly so - you get what you pay for, or rather you should only pay for what you get.   And that is the buyer's decision and, as you agreed, we are all starting from the same place in terms of what we do or don't know about a product.    Thus really good product information and specification is crucial to making the decision - well it is for me at any rate.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

I had an interesting chat with one of the other manufacturers, who had recieved a complaint that all the nuts on a loco were orientated the same way "ruining the model" apparenlty.

 

 

They never had fitters with OCD?

[cctransuk]

Just now, The Stationmaster said:

Thus really good product information and specification is crucial to making the decision - well it is for me at any rate.

 

Spot on!!!

 

If the Fell had been advertised as having two grilles on one side and four on the other I, and I suspect many others, would never have ordered the model.

 

It has been apparent for a long time, to those of us that are interested in 10100, that it was modified from having two grilles on each corner of the noses to having four. This has been known for a long time before KRM decided to produce a model.

 

Why on earth they seem to be so opposed to talking to people who know about such things is a mystery to me - it's akin to shooting oneself in the foot!

 

IMHO, this model in unfit for purpose and not of merchantable quality. It has been marketed as an accurate scale model and it clearly is not - as has been conceded by KRM themselves.

 

Regardless of the financial implications, KRM have a duty to all signed-up customer to contact them, draw attention to the error, and offer a refund of any and all payment made.

 

If, as has been suggested, very few customers will care, the financial consequences will be minimal.

 

John Isherwood.

[Ouroborus]

"Regardless of the financial implications, KRM have a duty to all signed-up customer to contact them, draw attention to the error, and offer a refund of any and all payment made."

 

really?

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Ouroborus said:

"Regardless of the financial implications, KRM have a duty to all signed-up customer to contact them, draw attention to the error, and offer a refund of any and all payment made."

 

really?

 

Most certainly - they have admitted that the model is not accurate, but they marketed it as being accurate.

 

On that basis they obtained my order, and many others, on the basis of misleading information.

 

CJI.

[Ouroborus]

You see, I have a rake of Accurascale PTA's in British Steel.  They are different on either side.  One side is printed correctly, the other isn't and its quite a glaring error (though not obvious enough for most it seems).  To my knowledge, people weren't offered the opportunity for replacement decals or to buy back the models.  

 

Page 34 to save you the time.

 

It happens.

[McC]

10 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

You see, I have a rake of Accurascale PTA's in British Steel.  They are different on either side.  One side is printed correctly, the other isn't and its quite a glaring error (though not obvious enough for most it seems).  To my knowledge, people weren't offered the opportunity for replacement decals or to buy back the models.  

 

Page 34 to save you the time.

 

It happens.

 

Just for clarity, we offered full refunds to anyone who felt the slight misplacement of the printing warranted it (and still do if anyone has an unopened pack they;'d like to return).

[Kaput]

53 minutes ago, Ouroborus said:

"Regardless of the financial implications, KRM have a duty to all signed-up customer to contact them, draw attention to the error, and offer a refund of any and all payment made."

 

really?

 

In the long run it might actually save KRM some money if they done that as people that would otherwise return the model for a full refund upon finding out what's been done could cancel in advance and save KRM the postage costs of sending them out and being returned under distance selling rules.

[AY Mod]

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

KRM have a duty to all signed-up customer to contact them, draw attention to the error, and offer a refund of any and all payment made.

 

They don't have any such duty at all. If you don't want the model just return it under your statutory rights under the Consumer Contract Regulations of 2014. No further banging of the drum required.

[JSpencer]

At £125, this is an error I'll easily live with. The alternatives I have are a brass kit with many hours or resin body on flea bay plus a coupled of hacked class 08 chassis.

Look at the £199 for 10800 ! And we don't know if that will be perfect yet either.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Ouroborus said:

"Regardless of the financial implications, KRM have a duty to all signed-up customer to contact them, draw attention to the error, and offer a refund of any and all payment made."

 

really?

Don't forget - even though they are not a UK company or even an overseas company registered to an address in Britain - they, just like anybody else, are still subject to UK consumer protection legislation in respect of goods they offer for sale in Britain.

[Graham_Muz]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Most certainly - they have admitted that the model is not accurate, but they marketed it as being accurate.

 

On that basis they obtained my order, and many others, on the basis of misleading information.

 

CJI.

 

Apparently correcting a few "grilles should be an easy task, and a partial repaint of the affected areas cannot be too taxing."  

[gary_lner]

Jenny Kirk has the fell on her YouTube channel tonight at 7pm.  Jenny might be able to answer a few questions for you all.

 

Regards

 

Gary 

Edited February 28, 2022 by gary_lner
Altered text

[PMP]

2 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Most certainly - they have admitted that the model is not accurate, but they marketed it as being accurate.

 

On that basis they obtained my order, and many others, on the basis of misleading information.

 

CJI.

I don't recall any of the KR models being marketed specifically as 'being accurate', though in todays market 'we' have that expectation. So cancelling an order now  due to 'lack of accuracy' would be AIUI, a breach of contract by the purchaser so no refund. As mentioned previously UK distance selling regs allow return of goods for refund, once they are delivered, the contract completed.

KR have said they are and will act according to UK distance selling regs.

 

So it appears there's not a refund issue. If you don't want the product when it arrives you are legally entitled to return it for refund.

[Colin_McLeod]

19 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

  Why then in the future should the likes of Accurascale, Revolution, Sonic and the major manufacturers waste resources on accurate research when the market has shown the level of accuracy that it is prepared to accept? 

 

What one is prepared to accept on a model of a prototype one is very familiar with and what one is prepared to accept on a model of a one off experiment that one has never seen will not be the same thing.

 

Accurascale made an A class and most* Irish modellers (self included) have seen enough A class locos in real life to know whether the model is right or wrong.  The level of detail discussed about, say, the class 60 is at the level of the shape of the light cluster on a particular loco after a particular repaint or whether the missing windscreen wiper was replaced at the 2019 overhaul.

 

That is a completely different market to that of the Fell where, (in my case anyway) I just see it as an opportunity to have a working model of an unusual beast.  As long as it has the right number of wheels and looks like the Fell I honestly would not know whether every detail was correct let alone care.  

 

* I have no source to back up this statement that "most Irish modellers....." if anyone is asking.

 

 

[PieGuyRob]

31 minutes ago, gary_lner said:

Jenny Kirk has the fell on her YouTube channel tonight at 7pm.  Jenny might be able to answer a few questions for you all.

 

Regards

 

Gary 

I'm thinking of watching that. It will be interesting to see. 

[Ian J.]

For me, I find it's a 'difficult' position to be in - on the one hand I am an advocate of 'getting things right', preferably before cutting metal for the tooling, even if that means having to delay a model while further positive verification research is done (positive in the sense of making sure that what needs to be known can be verified, preferably by visual references, i.e., photographs, rather than opinion). On the other hand, I see a small business that needs support in order to be able to produce further models and an 'error' like this is not helpful to them, even if it's of their own making.

 

This looks to have been an unfortunate 'error' in research, rather than a deliberate choice of a compromised final model. I don't think we know enough of KR to know if this would be an ongoing problem (unlike some other major 'manufacturers'), but being smaller, I'd hope they are concerned with trying to produce accurate models, not unlike Accurascale, Rapido, Revolution, Cavalex, etc.

 

If I can afford it (and that's a big if) I will look at some point at getting one of these despite the 'error', as long as there are models available in the livery I'd prefer at the time I have funds.

[Ouroborus]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Don't forget - even though they are not a UK company or even an overseas company registered to an address in Britain - they, just like anybody else, are still subject to UK consumer protection legislation in respect of goods they offer for sale in Britain.

 

Correct. But they don't have a "duty" to point anything out in regards accuracy. 

And I appreciate @McC's helpful further information on the PTA's.  I was unaware of this.  My point, which I should have made clearer, was that Accurascale are rightly held in high regard yet can sometimes make an error, in fact most if not all manufacturers have made livery errors in the last couple of years.  Some mistakes are passable, others less so.  Given the PTA's were in people's hands before anyone noticed suggests the former in this case.   So the Fell has some issues.  If its a deal breaker, don't buy it.

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

They don't have any such duty at all. If you don't want the model just return it under your statutory rights under the Consumer Contract Regulations of 2014. No further banging of the drum required.

 

Can I be confident, therefore, of a refund in full - including prepayment?

 

CJI.

 

 

[AY Mod]

3 hours ago, AY Mod said:

No further banging of the drum required.

 

Obviously premature.

 

Quote

 

33 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

Can I be confident, therefore, of a refund in full - including prepayment?

 

 

Dunno, your transaction isn't with me. You can look up the law and regs but you will, likely, be unable to get a refund on carriage in either direction.

 

 

 

[chris p bacon]

5 minutes ago, Ian J. said:

On the other hand, I see a small business that needs support in order to be able to produce further models and an 'error' like this is not helpful to them, even if it's of their own making.

 I wouldn't say that is actually the case here.  In an interview with AY (maybe 2 years ago ?) KR senior said that he was happy with his business model of fully funding models by pre payment before commencing production. This would suggest that research has been carried out and design work undertaken so that production costs can be calculated. If not how did KR arrive at an order price?

The Fell is a difficult locomotive to model unless you opt for a specific date/time, I only managed to find 1 pair of pictures that showed the loco on both sides on the same day and they took 5 years to find. So when the Fell was offered, it was advertised as a model of 'The Fell', there was no mention of a mismatch of eras and body changes, so a reasonable presumption is that a specific time has been chosen where the commisioner has the most detailed research (and doesn't just trust research given to them).  

It is an unhelpful error and completely avoidable, and I do wonder that those that have pre-ordered will stick with the order as it's easier. But in the long run the lack of research and attention to detail may not help KR with further models. 

[cctransuk]

22 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Obviously premature.

 

 

Dunno, your transaction isn't with me. You can look up the law and regs but you will, likely, be unable to get a refund on carriage in either direction.

 

 

 

 

From reading KRM's Terms and Conditions, I would appear to be liable for 10% of the purchase price.

 

I remain of the opinion that it was reasonable to expect that the model would incorporate a single set of time-related details; facts that were well known at that time.

 

CJI.

[Kaput]

Pretty sure the terms and conditions are irrelevant, as something bought entirely online you are fully entitled to return it for whatever reason for a full refund (restocking costs are not allowed to be charged IIRC and you will probably be responsible for postage costs).

The distance selling rules are designed around the entire premise that an online order doesn't allow you to inspect the goods before purchase as you would in a shop.

 

Only real condition is you have to send the goods back in a saleable condition which a lot of retailers basically try and translate as "unopened".

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, Kaput said:

Pretty sure the terms and conditions are irrelevant, as something bought entirely online you are fully entitled to return it for whatever reason for a full refund (restocking costs are not allowed to be charged IIRC and you will probably be responsible for postage costs).

The distance selling rules are designed around the entire premise that an online order doesn't allow you to inspect the goods before purchase as you would in a shop.

 

Only real condition is you have to send the goods back in a saleable condition which a lot of retailers basically try and translate as "unopened".

 

That is reassuring - we will see what transpires in due course.

 

CJI.

[PieGuyRob]

It appears that the model Jenny kirk has is the black one with running gear and the green one without. So probably the ones on display in Scotland.