The future of Model railway Exhibitions

[D9020 Nimbus]

18 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Shuttle bus services are interesting - why should they be free? Our club laid on a bus for a few years and it mostly travelled empty, whilst absorbing money that could be used for layouts. Essentially, those who drove, subsidised those who took the bus.

 

I say this as someone who loves public transport, but talking to railway modellers, I know a lot who to whom the idea of setting foot on a real train is a horridying prospect. Never undertsood why, but it is the case.

The York shuttle bus wasn't free. But it did at least exist, and to a venue which cannot easily be reached by public transport, and not at all on a Sunday. The last couple of times I attended — in 2018/9 — I took a taxi both ways. There was no sign of the shuttle bus (if there was one).

 

The best venue for public transport was the Roundhouse at Derby, though that appears to be lost now. Just across from the station. The SECC at Glasgow has its own station and the return fare from central Glasgow was (2019) remarkably cheap.

[Gilbert]

6 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 Level playing field etc. please.

 

 

Very good....

[Pete the Elaner]

7 minutes ago, TheQ said:

I don't go to Norwich City or any other kickball, watching 22 overpaid men running around on plastic has no interest at all..  My interest in sport is sailing... and that has been cheaper than the MRC membership over the last 20 years..  Though it will be more expensive this year as I need new sails....

 

As for public transport.. There isn't any.. I have to travel by car the 10 miles to the nearest railway station (no buses available to get there) and the trains cost more than driving to most places..

If I say wanted to go to Norwich show , it's a mile and a half walk to the nearest bus stop,  2 or 3 hours to Norwich depending on the route and the number of changes of bus. then another half hour back out to where the show is.. The total distance by car? 21 miles..

 

and then...

there won't be a bus that day to take me back home..

 

 

 

I only have part sympathy.

There are very few who have no choice at all of where to live. Most have at least a little freedom of choice.

 

I chose where I live because it has great access by road & rail to many places, not specifically for model railways exhibitions, but any sort of event.

[Pete the Elaner]

13 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

The best venue for public transport was the Roundhouse at Derby, though that appears to be lost now. Just across from the station. The SECC at Glasgow has its own station and the return fare from central Glasgow was (2019) remarkably cheap.

 

I would say Warley trumps that.

Not only does the NEC have Birmingham International in the same complex, but also Birmingham Airport.

[Mike Bellamy]

35 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

The best venue for public transport was the Roundhouse at Derby, though that appears to be lost now. Just across from the station. 

 

We are still hopeful that Derby College will eventually allow outside events to be held again in the Roundhouse.

 

15 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Not only does the NEC have Birmingham International in the same complex, but also Birmingham Airport.

 

We did have a Derby Airport but it's now underneath the Toyota factory at Burnaston - junction of A38 and A50. Derby Airways operated from there and eventually became British Midland, then BMI then went bust !

.

[itsthegman]

Hello,

 

Just to add my thinking to some of this, I looked at two or three big shows I'd like to attend from down south and worked out what it would cost (two people me and the wife for tickets one car diesel at todays prices) and go from there.

 

I have tickets to the Great Electric - it was good last year - I hope to see some layouts from outside the area and maybe nab a bargain/project or two.

 

Warley, we have been to the last few shows four or five in a car and shared the cost but this year it's the wife and I as above,  I can understand the £20 ticket price - costs are not going down but that's the show side of things. I have to look at what I can or am willing to spend and is it worth while for me. Yes I would see more layouts from far flung places which I like and again pick up bargains/projects  (I'm getting too old and fat to run over to the Bachmann stand these days and join the rucksack scrum). If they are selling tickets with the card machine at GETS then I may buy two and go (fingers crossed) if not spend my budget at some smaller local shows - sometimes you find a gem.

 

Ally Pally next year who knows this year it was as above the wife and I plus £12.50 congestion charge and yes it was congested there and back. I picked up some bits saw some good layouts and generally enjoyed, the worst part was figuring out how to pay the congestion charge online. For those of you who say take the train - not a chance it's way too expensive I'd love to but no - buy an electric car well let me just go and collect this pot of gold from the end of the rainbow (apologies to the little green people) I don't live in that price bracket and the congestion charge does figure large in my plans for Ally Pally next year.

 

As for the size of a layout l appreciate a big one such as Mostyn, St Merryn is it, Bournmouth West and  Sidmouth lovely outstanding layouts but I like a small layout (like my bills) for one reason and one reason only it makes me think I could build that and finish it more importantly it gives me hope and inspiration.

 

It's a pity that Warley they don't do wife's for a quid - no no to get in not the other thing you were thinking - bad people !.

 

I know some of you will be sharpening your electronic pencils to cut me to shreds but I don't care this is me my world how it is to me. 

 

Mr Parker bringing football into the game that's just underhand I'd rather have a trip to the dentist than watch football, I prefer the indignity/farce that is Formula 1 these days.

 

See you around a show or two hopefully.

 

G.

[Neil]

3 hours ago, Barry O said:

the big costs at a show are hall hire followed by layout costs. Lots of small layouts are on a par with a larger layout so viability is getting a balance so layout size does come into play.

 

Baz

Merely pointing out that if the cost of living crisis bites hard and clubs decide that they aren't able to cover exhibition costs then size becomes immaterial as there will be no show to attend.

2 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

£20 is the same as the cheapest ticket to see Hull City vs Luton Town. You have to drive to, and park at, and eat and drink at, both......

 

 

It's possible to choose any comparator, for example my local cinema is a couple of minutes walk, costs a fiver, I have a comfy seat with loads of legroom and the staff will bring me a beer, chocolates or snacks should I require them. Warley costs twenty something quid on the train plus entrance at twenty quid, so it's forty quid plus for the full scrum experience, insufficient seats at dinnertime and expensive catering.

[Phil Parker]

4 minutes ago, itsthegman said:

Mr Parker bringing football into the game that's just underhand I'd rather have a trip to the dentist than watch football, I prefer the indignity/farce that is Formula 1 these days.

 

Me too, but then I have a very good dentist. However, if you want to bring Formula 1 into it - British Grand Prix tickets start at £129. Warley has a roof, and I bet the catering is cheaper!

 

7 minutes ago, Neil said:

It's possible to choose any comparator, for example my local cinema is a couple of minutes walk, costs a fiver, I have a comfy seat with loads of legroom and the staff will bring me a beer, chocolates or snacks should I require them.

 

And they will chuck you out after a couple of hours. As you say, it's possible to pick any comparitor. Football seems like a good one because it's a popular sport, and people travel long distances to see it. Mind you, I've also been to a couple of shows this month that cost a fiver to go it, but Warley is the one people focus on/whinge about.

[AY Mod]

32 minutes ago, itsthegman said:

they don't do wife's for a quid

 

I've got one already but they do tend to cost more than that come Christmas.

[t-b-g]

Having built and exhibited many different types of layouts over the last 40 years, from a maximum of 32ft long, needing a crew of 8, through to the smallest of 6ft 6ins long needing two, I have seen both sides of the coin.

 

As the years pass, my circle of friends is still pretty much the same people as it has been for many years and most are older than me. Lugging big layouts around becomes much less attractive and things like van hire can get a bit difficult at certain ages. So the bigger layouts have now passed on to others or been retired from shows. The sheer amount of hard work carrying heavy and multiple boards around just isn't something we want to do any more.

 

Any future exhibition layouts will be very much a two man one car type, although that doesn't necessarily mean a micro layout.

 

The biggest I have managed to transport in my Ford Focus C Max was 20ft. long (Five 4ft. x 15 in. boards) with a 12ft station and an 8ft fiddle yard. That was exhibited as a work in progress quite successfully with just two operators although I was never 100% happy with some aspects of the design and having moved on to other projects it may never get finished now.

 

Two such layouts would be much more economical to invite than a single 40ft layout needing maybe 6 operators plus a car and a van hire.

 

This is very much a personal view but I find "roundy roundy" layouts which are just basically trains circulating one after the other pretty dull after a few minutes and they often don't need the large crews for the actual running of the layout. They are only really needed for setting up and breaking down. I am struggling to recall a big continuous run layout that feature any complex or intricate operation, of the type that I enjoy. I don't count a shunter pushing the same few trucks up and down the goods yard all weekend as complex and interesting.

[Chris M]

35 minutes ago, itsthegman said:

 

I have tickets to the Great Electric - it was good last year - I hope to see some layouts from outside the area and maybe nab a bargain/project or two.

 

Warley, we have been to the last few shows four or five in a car and shared the cost but this year it's the wife and I as above,  I can understand the £20 ticket price - costs are not going down but that's the show side of things. I have to look at what I can or am willing to spend and is it worth while for me. Yes I would see more layouts from far flung places which I like and again pick up bargains/projects  (I'm getting too old and fat to run over to the Bachmann stand these days and join the rucksack scrum). If they are selling tickets with the card machine at GETS then I may buy two and go (fingers crossed) if not spend my budget at some smaller local shows - sometimes you find a gem.

 

 

It's a pity that Warley they don't do wife's for a quid - no no to get in not the other thing you were thinking - bad people !.

 

 

G.

I taking my N gauge layout Dawlish Warren to GETS. I coming all the way from Birmingham.

 

I plan to have Warley advance tickets for sale and will have the Warley club card reader with me. I just hope I will be able to get it to work. Please ask us at the layout. Dawlish Warren isn’t a Warley club layout (it’s mine) but I am a member of said club. I’m not part of the exhibition management team but they are happy for me to sell advance tickets for them.

 

Wives for a quid sounds like a good idea! Of course if she was your carer she could get on for free.

 

[Pete the Elaner]

38 minutes ago, itsthegman said:

 

Ally Pally next year who knows this year it was as above the wife and I plus £12.50 congestion charge and yes it was congested there and back. I picked up some bits saw some good layouts and generally enjoyed, the worst part was figuring out how to pay the congestion charge online. For those of you who say take the train - not a chance it's way too expensive I'd love to but no - buy an electric car well let me just go and collect this pot of gold from the end of the rainbow (apologies to the little green people) I don't live in that price bracket and the congestion charge does figure large in my plans for Ally Pally next year.

 

 

Mr Parker bringing football into the game that's just underhand I'd rather have a trip to the dentist than watch football, I prefer the indignity/farce that is Formula 1 these days.

 

 

Football was just an example of how somebody may spend a day out.

I would rather watch a speedway match, which is also around £20 & again only for a couple of hours.

Where else could you go for the day? Some museums are free but most charge at least £10 & you wouldn't be there for the whole day.

Maybe the Zoo? My nearest is Whipsnade. £30.50 for an adult.

The cost of Warley is comparable to many other places you could choose for a day out.

 

Why would you drive through central London to get to Ally Pally? The congestion charge is to keep people away from the part of London which is best avoided anyway. It is much easier & less stressful to drive around.

[john new]

4 hours ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

The York shuttle bus wasn't free. But it did at least exist, and to a venue which cannot easily be reached by public transport, and not at all on a Sunday. The last couple of times I attended — in 2018/9 — I took a taxi both ways. There was no sign of the shuttle bus (if there was one).

 

The best venue for public transport was the Roundhouse at Derby, though that appears to be lost now. Just across from the station. The SECC at Glasgow has its own station and the return fare from central Glasgow was (2019) remarkably cheap.

York Shuttle bus

To clarify - the Racecourse as a general public venue attracts crowds and there is an approved runs as required bus service route which, when it runs, is provided by a commercial bus company (It has been TRANSDEV). It is not a YMRS service as such, we attract the crowd, pre-COVID they felt it justified running the bus link (still do?) . You therefore pay them. It always was less frequent on Sun & Mon than Sat, for similar reasons as to why the service bus doesn't run other than Saturday - the operator does not feel there will be enough pax.

 

Venues with public transport, or not -

Although this is very much a generalisation of the shows I have experienced over many years they are likely to be either (A) older built town/city centre venues therefore parking for exhibitors/visitors and for loading unloading is difficult in modern times, (b) educational buildings or (c) a modern exhibition venue building out of town. It is pot luck whether there happens to be a bus or train service serving a venue in cats (b) and (c). It is hit and miss - of the local clubs to me running shows Weymouth is lucky the school WMRA are going to use this year has a passing bus. Currently the No 8 runs every 30mins Sats and 60mins Sun and there is also the infrequent X53 Bridport bus; however, by show date (29 & 30 Oct at Budmouth School*), for both routes it will be the winter service by show date so who knows what frequency will be announced. Even here though the venue has had to be changed since the pre-COVID era and the public transport link isn't as good to Budmouth school as it was to the previous venue. 

 

* SLS will have a trade stand there for books and memberships - no other current connections to WMRA.

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by john new
For clarity and a typo correction.

[Neil]

4 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

.......And they will chuck you out after a couple of hours.

 

However for the price of one Warley I can go to the pictures eight times and still have a few quid left over. That's sixteen hours by my reckoning.

[PaulRhB]

15 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

However for the price of one Warley I can go to the pictures eight times and still have a few quid left over. That's sixteen hours by my reckoning.

Warley £20 this year, plus parking shared between 3-4, £4?, plus transport but I’d pay that to go to the Severn Valley or a similar distance railway so not an additional cost as such to compare. 

 

Yet round here it’s £10 a ticket so two films and at the Birmingham Odeon £17 a ticket as there are only recliner seats showing! 
All it proves is prices vary and some are more expensive, especially in a city , so the NEC price isn’t that surprising. 
If it’s worth it to you personally then go if not don’t, from the scrum in some aisles on Saturday there are plenty who see the value as ok so probably a good thing that some are put off and go to the cinema instead 😉

Warley & Ally Pally work for me as I work most weekends so I only get to a few shows so £8- £10 for a local biggish show vs Warley etc at four times the size is pretty good value to me for the extra distance. Go with some mates and it’s a fun day out on the journey too but then I’ve been known to drive to Wales for an ice cream and a day of trains 🍨  🚂

[newbryford]

7 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

Barry is right. Cost per foot of frontage, many large layouts are cheaper than small ones. A micro still needs two operators who need accomodation and food, even if they can travel in a car.

 

 

I agree that expenses for larger layouts can often be cheaper per foot of frontage than smaller ones (I know from having/managing a 16' layout with 4 operators against a 48' layout with 8) , but this has to be offset against more layouts or less layouts on the exhibition list.

 

To the "average" paying exhibition go-er, would they view either 20 small layouts or 10 larger layouts as better value for money?

Edited September 20, 2022 by newbryford

[newbryford]

7 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

 

 

It is also worth remembering where the money goes: To the venues , layouts & most importantly to the organisers. Whether these are clubs, societies or publishers, they are all part of the hobby

 

No money goes to the layouts IMO.

 

Van hire/fuel/accommodation/B&B/lunch expenses yes, but I've never been paid (or expect to be paid) to take my layout to an exhibition.

 

edit: typo

 

Edited September 20, 2022 by newbryford

[newbryford]

5 hours ago, itsthegman said:

 

 

Ally Pally next year who knows this year it was as above the wife and I plus £12.50 congestion charge and yes it was congested there and back. I picked up some bits saw some good layouts and generally enjoyed, the worst part was figuring out how to pay the congestion charge online. 

 

 

There is no congestion charge for Ally Pally.

It's in the ULEZ zone that any reasonably modern vehicle won't fall foul of.

 

Admittedly TfL's ULEZ/CC info isn't exactly clear to understand and some people have thought they had to pay when they didn't.

[newbryford]

4 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

I've got one already but they do tend to cost more than that come Christmas.

 

Why wait until Chr*stmas?

[Dava]

The Soar Valley MRC show at Loughborough resumed this August with a fine selection of continuous run and smaller end-end layouts, I think it cost £8 and there was a vintage bus service from the BR station as well as passing buses to the GCR at Quorn. Busy and good value. People commented similarly on Stafford, I didn’t get to it.

 

Its now the premier East Midlands model rail show, with no news of the Lincoln shows at Newark or at Derby resuming.
 

Support your local shows! 
 

Dava

[298]

Something I have noticed since lockdown are a number of shows in more interesting locations such as a marquee in Castle ruins and a Victorian pumping station. These offer a distraction away from the show and make it easier to convince the family that we're going for a cultured day out and I really didn't know there was a railway exhibition there. Thankfully I haven't seen many new to the scene "look what I did on furlough" layouts with clichéd names, but there are still too many that don't ever on the side of quality and yet still have more badges of appearance than an eight foot walking stick.

 

Going back to the OP's question, one genre that I've seen done successfully but rarely with a UK prototype is a modular layout. That way you can encompass smaller home layouts into a larger one and have flexibility and originality. Many modular meets are private where the participants pay for the hall hire and their own expenses, and although nobody wants to spoil someone else's fun, there is a different atmosphere away from the baying punters of a regular show.

 

I'd agree with the comments about needing more hands off  automation, not the tail-chasers with the same train orbiting whilst the builder dozes off with their arms folded, but a simple shuttle module whilst the next move is planned elsewhere on the layout. I debuted a layout on Saturday with such a feature and it took alot of pressure off operating.

 

 

[Chris M]

Warley does offer excellent value for money if you look at it from a cost per layout point of view. With over 80 layouts to see the price you are paying per layout is under 25p. Stafford show (this weekend) with an admission price of £12 is also circa 25p per layout. There are some that are cheaper than this per layout but not very many. Most exhibitions with a much lower entrance price actually cost more per layout. Same applies to the number of trade exhibitors per £1 admission.  

[Neil]

Update on costs, I've just checked the train fare from home to the NEC and it's gone up over the last few years from the mid to upper twenties to forty two quid, so will buy Mrs R's cinema tickets too.

[Barry O]

15 minutes ago, Neil said:

Update on costs, I've just checked the train fare from home to the NEC and it's gone up over the last few years from the mid to upper twenties to forty two quid, so will buy Mrs R's cinema tickets too.

Enjoy your film.. 

 

Meanwhile others will be following their model railways based hobby.

 

Baz

[mr roarke]

Do exhibition managers still go to shows looking for layouts??? Before Covid we would be asked for info on the layout (s) we were exhibiting and 95% of these resulted a booking for another show. Since Covid we have attended quite number of shows based on bookings for shows that were cancelled during the pandemic..Not sure why this is happening now or is it the new "norm"???

Edited September 21, 2022 by mr roarke
spelling