Bachmann Summer 2023 Announcements

[40002]

So I'm pleased they have brought out 2 tops blue class 40 models, these seem to be in short supply and seem to sell for quite high prices on ebay, will defo be looking to buy the disc headcode version. The frost covers appear to be part of the detail pack as the current models which I won't be fitting.

 

I currently have 2 of these a centre headcode version which I will probably sell and a split headcode version. I always think the nose doesn't quite look right on the centre headcode version but the split headcode version looks much better and disguises any inaccuracies. 

[Great Waterton]

I like the image of the weathered blue 20. That looks a fantastic base for adding a few little extra flourishes such as dirt in the panel lines and adding buffer grease etc.

[scots region]

I'm actually excited for the SCR Class 40. Its not a perfect model, but its better to go for it than wait around for Bachmann to announce an enormously expensive revision or for Accurascale to come out with one that I won't see until 2025. 

 

ScR 

[saxokid]

Few interesting bits there ile keep eye on from Bachmann👍

[Michael Hodgson]

I've always liked green diesels before the yellow ends came in, so D292 is looking like a probable buy.

[rob D2]

The current class 20 I think is excellent . The motor is the quietest i've ever had in a bachy , which can be a bit growly .

 

Id contemplate a 40 then i've got almost all the early 80s diesel classes 

[Butler Henderson]

On 03/05/2023 at 19:00, MonsalDale said:

Surprised there are no 00 steam locos in this announcement.  Not even existing toolings being released. 

Theres an apple green V3 and six 9Fs (plus equivalent sound fitted versions) being released this summer from previous announcements. It a pity that the video  never briefly mentions the "also arriving" items listed on the back of the Annoucements brochure.

 

For completeness there is as well as D213 Andania, a stack of 37s listed, SR Malachite Green Bulleids and MXA Lobsters.

[MonsalDale]

3 hours ago, Butler Henderson said:

Theres an apple green V3 and six 9Fs (plus equivalent sound fitted versions) being released this summer from previous announcements. It a pity that the video  never briefly mentions the "also arriving" items listed on the back of the Annoucements brochure.

 

For completeness there is as well as D213 Andania, a stack of 37s listed, SR Malachite Green Bulleids and MXA Lobsters.

I had missed that, at least that's something.

[TravisM]

To be honest, I'm not buying anything from Bachmann now as I feel their pricing is now way out of hand.  I appreciate that they are a huge multi-national company with shareholders to please, but the price hike is eye watering, then they wonder why their models sit on dealers shelves until heavily discounted.

 

Instead of these 'retooled' loco's, how about bringing out the models they have originally announced, such as the Class 168's, 170's and 171's which when they finally arrive, will be so expensive that nobody will be able to afford.

[AY Mod]

6 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

then they wonder why their models sit on dealers shelves until heavily discounted

 

Generally, they don't.

[Type 2]

5 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

To be honest, I'm not buying anything from Bachmann now as I feel their pricing is now way out of hand.  I appreciate that they are a huge multi-national company with shareholders to please, but the price hike is eye watering, then they wonder why their models sit on dealers shelves until heavily discounted.

 

Instead of these 'retooled' loco's, how about bringing out the models they have originally announced, such as the Class 168's, 170's and 171's which when they finally arrive, will be so expensive that nobody will be able to afford.

The hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be, Bachmann's models generally don't sit about on the shelves

 

If you think its expensive, try another hobby where you'll get a fully detailed, functional and finished model and see what change you'll have out of Bachmann pricing

[TravisM]

5 minutes ago, Type 2 said:

The hobby is only as expensive as you want it to be, Bachmann's models generally don't sit about on the shelves

 

If you think its expensive, try another hobby where you'll get a fully detailed, functional and finished model and see what change you'll have out of Bachmann pricing

 

I appreciate that the hobby is expensive, and to a point defended Bachmann and their pricing, but, and it's a big but, a 25% or more hike on some of their re-released older models (Class 70 to name one).

[St. Simon]

30 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

To be honest, I'm not buying anything from Bachmann now as I feel their pricing is now way out of hand.  I appreciate that they are a huge multi-national company with shareholders to please, but the price hike is eye watering, then they wonder why their models sit on dealers shelves until heavily discounted.

 

Instead of these 'retooled' loco's, how about bringing out the models they have originally announced, such as the Class 168's, 170's and 171's which when they finally arrive, will be so expensive that nobody will be able to afford.

 

Hi,

 

I don't believe Bachmann is a true share-holder company, not like Hornby at least, so I don't think that comes into it. The prices are simply the reflection of the costs required to bring the models to market nowadays, it's not profiteering or anything like that (despite what some members on this forum will assert), it's simply the cost of the model, I know Bachmann are just as unhappy about prices rises as we are.

 

There is also the fact that Bachmann stuff does not sit on shelves as much as other brands from my observations. If there was a massive problem with cost why is that all the Delux Spec 37s, 47s etc are the ones to sell out first (and quickly)? I find the DCC Ready and Sound Fitted ones stay around because people want to buy the expensive delux version.

 

Before anyone says about 'pricing young people out of the hobby', the reality as far as I have seen it is that generally younger modellers are more than happy paying the higher prices.

 

12 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

 

I appreciate that the hobby is expensive, and to a point defended Bachmann and their pricing, but, and it's a big but, a 25% or more hike on some of their re-released older models (Class 70 to name one).

 

You (and a lot of other people as well) are forgetting that whilst the tooling many be 'old', you still have to pay current prices for the materials and labour to produce that model today, and the fact is that labour is the most expensive part of the process. You then have inflation that has happened since the models were last release, how do we know the extent of the absorption of costs when the model was first produced?

 

Pricing arguments should not be about the absolute cost of a model, rather the value for money that you get. My personal opinion is that whilst Bachmann may be expensive, the value for money, not just in terms of the model, but service, trade support etc, is very good.

 

I use this analogy when talking about the cost of the hobby....If you collect cars, you collect Ferraris, not Nissan Micras, so why should model railways be really cheap?

 

Now, can we move on to a different subject?

 

Simon

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by St. Simon

[younGGuns7]

Strange all the talk of increasing costs, especially when the container shipping has dropped pretty much to pre pandemic levels which was a hot potato at one point and a major reason for such hikes in prices, we are getting rates around 1700 USD per 40ft as opposed to 18000 USD a year ago. 

[Dunsignalling]

36 minutes ago, younGGuns7 said:

Strange all the talk of increasing costs, especially when the container shipping has dropped pretty much to pre pandemic levels which was a hot potato at one point and a major reason for such hikes in prices, we are getting rates around 1700 USD per 40ft as opposed to 18000 USD a year ago. 

The difference is that suppliers increase prices to allow for expected cost increases,  and reduce them, if at all, in response to invoiced cost reductions. Cynical, moi?

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[younGGuns7]

Just now, Dunsignalling said:

The difference is that suppliers increase prices to allow for expected cost increases,  and reduce them, if at all in line with invoiced cost reductions. Cynical, moi?

 

 

Not cynical at all, my feeling is that a lot of supply into all markets are now being kept artificially higher to regain some losses from the pandemic ( just my opinion nothing to back this up 🤫)

[97406]

Save for 37430 which I bought for full price less than £300 discounted by Rails (the middle spec one), I have since bought 2 more 37/4s for considerably less than the RRP. I also got 47012 for less than 200. Keep your eyes peeled and there are bargains to be had. In hindsight I would also go for DCC ready and put my own sound in if need be, having tested 430 alongside another recent class 37 acquisition.

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by 97406
Realised I bought 37430 at a discounted price!

[WCML100]

My two pence for what it is worth - I am young(ish) modeller - and tend to agree with quite a few points above on both sides.

 

I do not mind paying for what something is worth if I feel I am getting value out of it - the extra for sound etc or even a newly tooled model - I appreciate a steady price increase as every year goes by. I think for example a Cavalex 56 at a cost of £190 RRP and now the next announced model in the form a 60 from Cavalex has only gone up by £5 - a fair increase in my eyes. Still the over cost maybe expensive to some people and I understand that but I think the bottom line is you get what you pay for. That just doesn't go for this example but there are many others out there including rolling stock too. Something that 10 years ago would have seemed expensive but now is norm for a 'high end spec' model - again to re-iterate something I am happy to pay for - in line with general conscientious as what @St. Simon was gettign at.

 

Regarding Bachmann pricing - I feel prices have increased percentage wise a lot more than others (Hornby too but not as much) - things like the 70 is eye watering really - and to me pricing it just too much out of range - although as others have said it WILL sell even at that price. 

 

Saying that - I have also seen a lot of the new tooled 90's, 37's and 47's discounted heavily. Th 37 v 37 debate with the accurascale offering also puts in to perspective Bachmann's heavier end pricing for a head to head on one class and how it can be done. I understand Bachmann may have larger overheads etc but it still seems on the pricy side even for a top end level market - as per @jools1959 & @97406 - something that does bug my ideology when buying the new price inflated Bachmann stuff is when old tooling is massively inflated to the point where a re tool would surely be more beneficial for both Bachmann and the end customer - a few items in the range released over the last for sure fit in to this category. Again to re-iterate I appreciate that I understand costs of productions runs go up with labour costs and all of that side of it - and inevitably these costs only ever go up. But some items are being priced so heavy for what they actually are in todays market and they do not fit in to the 'high end bracket' - a good example would be the Bachmann MK1 and MK2a/z - I can just about remember when the RRP was under £20 - yet these 20+ year old toolings are now commanding RRP's of £65-70. Im sorry but the fact you can get a fully lit Accurascale high end detailed and accurate MK2b/c (with lighting) at £60 is much more attractive in the 'high end bracket' - surely Bachmann are missing a trick here. In comparison their class 90 - a fairly recently tooled loco that I would class as a high end offering - price matches that but you get what you pay for 100%.

 

Again saying all of this - certain things I 'need' may still tempt me into buying them - however I am more likely to wait for the bargain bin sales - I have a whole MK2F rake - never paid of £50 for any of them...

[Phil Parker]

3 minutes ago, WCML100 said:

something that does bug my ideology when buying the new price inflated Bachmann stuff is when old tooling is massively inflated to the point where a re tool would surely be more beneficial for both Bachmann and the end customer

 

And how much would that retool cost? And where would the money to pay for it come from? You can be sure it wouldn't result in lower prices, unless anyone fancies going down the "design clever" route, but we remember what the reaction to that was...

[WCML100]

13 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

And how much would that retool cost? And where would the money to pay for it come from? You can be sure it wouldn't result in lower prices, unless anyone fancies going down the "design clever" route, but we remember what the reaction to that was...

 

Sorry I should have clarified myself a little better - I would happily pay that price (or more for a new accurate offering). The price (although maybe the best they can do) isn't worth what your actually getting for the 2 models I gave as an example - and there is only so long you can keep upping the price of these until people stop buying something that isn't worth that price any more - especially when there is much better value offerings on eBay second hand (most of the liveries the MK1's and Mk2z/a's carried have been produced one way or another) or you go elsewhere for the new boys offerings - if they can do a newly tooled models of a VERY similar coach for less than Bachmann's 20+ year old tooling been churned out now - that doesn't really make sense from a consumer or business point of view. 

 

I am not saying I know all the answers because I really don't! But to me - that just doesn't add up for a customer, and I am no businessman but I can't imagine how many more years of price increases they will be able to get out of 20 year + tooling when competitors are releasing better quality an more accurate items in the same areas for a lot less. The MK2's are a great example of this:

 

If your average Joe wanted to model a rake of Mk2's and had x2 options of either a rake of Mk2a's or mk2b/c's - They are going to get the accurascale offering because they got a lot more for their money (and for less...) - no brainer really. Of course people who want exact prototypes will get the exact coach no matter the price or manufacturer - I fall into that category myself, but nowadays I turn to the bargain bins or eBay first for older toolings as there are plenty at cheap prices about on the market. 

 

To clarify - I have no agenda against Bachman - I am even part of the collectors club. & to re-iterate, I am happy to pay their premium prices for the a premium product, unfortunately not all of they're premium priced items are also a premium product. 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by WCML100

[rob D2]

I understand all the arguments about pricing but I’d be a bit worried about putting out existing models at £200+ when the new boys are doing cutting edge stuff for £160- 195.

 

I’d feel a bit Austin rover to their Tesla… the proof  will be if it all shifts , and there has already been signs the market can’t bear it all with the reductions we’ve seen.

 

 

[Roy Langridge]

18 hours ago, St. Simon said:

I don't believe Bachmann is a true share-holder company, not like Hornby at least, so I don't think that comes into it. The prices are simply the reflection of the costs required to bring the models to market nowadays, it's not profiteering or anything like that (despite what some members on this forum will assert), it's simply the cost of the model, I know Bachmann are just as unhappy about prices rises as we are.

 

Care needed here, I used to work for a company where we had to use the parent company manufacturing facility. Yes, our selling price was set by costs of making the item, but had we had free-rein to shop about we could have got that manufacturing cost down, significantly.

 

18 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Before anyone says about 'pricing young people out of the hobby', the reality as far as I have seen it is that generally younger modellers are more than happy paying the higher prices.

 

But some young people are being priced out of the hobby - my middle son for one. He got frustrated watching prices rise as quick as he could save up and the second-hand market rising to keep up.

 

18 hours ago, St. Simon said:

You (and a lot of other people as well) are forgetting that whilst the tooling many be 'old', you still have to pay current prices for the materials and labour to produce that model today, and the fact is that labour is the most expensive part of the process

 

I don't have the figures so I don't disagree, however, for years we were told by manufacturers that the cost was high because of the tooling costs. Which is it?

 

18 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Pricing arguments should not be about the absolute cost of a model, rather the value for money that you get. My personal opinion is that whilst Bachmann may be expensive, the value for money, not just in terms of the model, but service, trade support etc, is very good.

 

For me, the cost v value paradigm is true, but for those on a very limited budget it is not so much the case. Bachmann service is great, but we are seeing other manufacturers meet that high standard at a lower cost point.

 

At the end of the day prices are what they are, but I do agree with the statement made that they cannot keep rising at the current rate, a rate which is above most peoples pay rises in the UK.

 

Roy

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

Care needed here, I used to work for a company where we had to use the parent company manufacturing facility. Yes, our selling price was set by costs of making the item, but had we had free-rein to shop about we could have got that manufacturing cost down, significantly.

 

 

But some young people are being priced out of the hobby - my middle son for one. He got frustrated watching prices rise as quick as he could save up and the second-hand market rising to keep up.

 

 

I don't have the figures so I don't disagree, however, for years we were told by manufacturers that the cost was high because of the tooling costs. Which is it?

 

 

For me, the cost v value paradigm is true, but for those on a very limited budget it is not so much the case. Bachmann service is great, but we are seeing other manufacturers meet that high standard at a lower cost point.

 

At the end of the day prices are what they are, but I do agree with the statement made that they cannot keep rising at the current rate, a rate which is above most peoples pay rises in the UK.

 

Roy

Whether one is priced out of the second-hand market very much depends on what you are buying. If it's recent items, the prices are definitely shadowing what they cost new, and in some cases matching what more recent iterations of them have risen to. If one is content to start with older stuff and either replace it when more funds are available, or treat it as raw material for conversions etc, it can still be a cheap way in. I recently bought a pair of LMS livery Tri-ang Caleys for seven quid to form the basis of an LSWR Restaurant Car. At the same swapmeet I could have spent £20 and walked away with half-a-dozen old-style Hornby Gresleys to chop up and reconstitute.

 

Tooling costs used to be a major factor but technology has brought them down over the past two decades, while labour rates in China have been inexorably rising (though still only being a fraction of what they would be here, if anyone is thinking of reviving the on-shoring fantasy).

 

The simple truth is that Bachmann UK (who, for structural reasons do not have the freedom to shop around for cheaper production of their own brand), and all the others, will make what they think we want and sell it at the price they need in order to finance the next project and keep the company afloat.

 

Some demand may well adjust itself to pricing; in recent times there have been a number of items of which, in the past, I might have bought four or five, but have contented myself with one or two. I will surely not be alone! However, in essence what matters is that each product is commercially viable; i.e. they can sell enough for enough.   

 

Put bluntly, new products will be made only if current ones deliver the necessary return, if they cease to, there will simply be fewer or none to buy in future. Model railway manufacturers are not only competing against one another, Chinese factories currently producing them are perfectly capable of adapting to making other things that potentially offer better margins.

 

The "shape of things to come" will develop according to what we do buy, rather than what we don't, but look through the ads in the modelling press. None of that stuff is being made for the tight, the skint, or those with only a casual interest. There is serious money sloshing around in this hobby; if there wasn't, new players wouldn't be joining the industry, and expanding their ranges, faster than ever before.

 

John

Edited May 10, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[St. Simon]

58 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

I don't have the figures so I don't disagree, however, for years we were told by manufacturers that the cost was high because of the tooling costs. Which is it?

 

Roy

 

Hi Roy,

 

Yes, you are right in that tooling for years was the largest cost, but I think with the increase in pay in China and the increased amounts of detail / fitted parts, I think the labour costs have now become the highest, just, costs.

 

High Tooling costs I think still are the 'deciding' factor in choosing which models to produce, but labour costs affect the final product cost alot.

 

I don't have figures either, this is just opinion based on what I have been told by various people in the industry

 

Simon

[andyman7]

Even with new items, it is apparent that if one is not too fussed about getting a specific item, there are (relative) bargains to be had. There were howls at Hornby's price rises of a year or so back yet today a brand new 5 car Azuma can be bought for £299 from a certain retailer, who also has the Bachmann Blue Grey sound fitted Class 117 at £248.

 

Anyone modelling back pre-1990s may have had cheaper prices/lower quality but would also have navigated much bigger gaps in what could be bought RTR, so the notion that there have to be affordable, superdetail models of a specific prototype on demand doesn't equate to reality at any time. Even Accurascale/Cavalex etc with their excellent new products are hardly 'on demand' - you need to preorder or buy during brief windows of availability.

 

The reason I tend to react to statements about lack of affordability is because when I started out as a young teenager I had no money whatsoever. I don't want this to sound like a Monty Python Four Yorkshireman sketch but - unlike many people on here - my introduction to the hobby was not a train set because my parents couldn't afford it. Instead, from the age of 11 onwards I was scraping through model shop junk bins and market stalls to build up - very slowly -  a basic layout and something to run on it (there was a point in this journey where - I kid you not - I had three quarters of a circle of Triang Super 4 track - and this was the late 70s!). The upside is that although nowadays I am much more freely able to afford what I like, I can conjure up alternatives to brand new things for a fraction of the new shop price and don't feel beholden to the new release treadmill,

 

The consumer-manufacturer relationship is a two-way one - if we as consumers consider an item to be too expensive (or simply can't afford it) we are not obligated to buy - and indeed if as a result surplus stock later becomes available to us at a more palatable price it is to our benefit; but on the other side, the manufacturer is not obliged to follow some regulatory or state-mandated schedule of how much is reasonable to charge for new/old tooling or specification. 

 

To paraphrase Churchill, the above situation represents the worst arrangement we could have - apart from all the other ones