Bachmann Summer 2023 Announcements

[The Stationmaster]

20 hours ago, jools1959 said:

 

I appreciate that the hobby is expensive, and to a point defended Bachmann and their pricing, but, and it's a big but, a 25% or more hike on some of their re-released older models (Class 70 to name one).

The purchase of any 'nice to have' item as part of discretionary spending is 100% voluntary - you don't have to buy anything.

 

It might sound strange but I understand from several sources in the trade that the fastest selling versions of Bachmann's retooled diesels are the top of the range ones with all the features and, of course, the highest price.  That alone suggests to me that 'somebody' has the wherewithal, and the wish, to buy such models.  so a market clearly exists and Bachmann are obviously doing the right thing for the company by selling to that market.

 

Manufacturers can only survive if they make a profit and if they don't makea profit they might well die away as has happened to many in the past.  So the consumer has a choice - either pay the market price or wait, possibly in vain, for discounted surplus stock, or not buy at all.  But then don't moan if a company goes out of business.

[rob D2]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

The purchase of any 'nice to have' item as part of discretionary spending is 100% voluntary - you don't have to buy anything.

 

It might sound strange but I understand from several sources in the trade that the fastest selling versions of Bachmann's retooled diesels are the top of the range ones with all the features and, of course, the highest price.  That alone suggests to me that 'somebody' has the wherewithal, and the wish, to buy such models.  so a market clearly exists and Bachmann are obviously doing the right thing for the company by selling to that market.

 

Manufacturers can only survive if they make a profit and if they don't makea profit they might well die away as has happened to many in the past.  So the consumer has a choice - either pay the market price or wait, possibly in vain, for discounted surplus stock, or not buy at all.  But then don't moan if a company goes out of business.

This effect I think is one of two things. Either they produce much less of the deluxe versions and thus don’t need to see many to sell out or it’s a financial effect I found when I was involved with private jets ( bear with me !)

 

When the economic crush came, those with plenty of money could still afford the top of the range stuff - the Boeings , gulfstreams etc…..those who were already “ marginal “ , could just about afford a Cessna citation were the ones that stopped leasing and those smaller cheaper jets went.

 

A strange simile , but it seems to be the bog standard versions that hang around the longest .

[E100]

The only things I will be getting from this announcement at launch are the PRA's. Anything else will have to go into the bargain bin for me to consider it.

[sulzer71]

28 minutes ago, E100 said:

The only things I will be getting from this announcement at launch are the PRA's. Anything else will have to go into the bargain bin for me to consider it.

Same here , pre ordered 3 of the Early PRA's , may end up ordering the other 3 too

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, E100 said:

The only things I will be getting from this announcement at launch are the PRA's. Anything else will have to go into the bargain bin for me to consider it.

As a steam era modeller of the south-western bit of BR Southern Region, having my finances overstretched by Bachmann output is not a concept with which I am familiar.😀

 

However, I have drawn my chosen period a little tighter of late, which has relegated the recent, and very tempting, crimson/cream Bulleids to your second category so far. That position becomes harder to sustain every time I look at my green 2-sets, though! 

 

When BR green versions of the 3/5-set are announced, there will be no hesitation, however. 

 

John

Edited May 11, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

Copied from the Bachmann class 43 thread…

 

Quote

Posted February 9, 2015

   On 09/02/2015 at 15:21

Just had Hattons email to say these are due Aug/Sept and my pre order price has risen to a rather eye watering £115.

 

Yes my pre order price was £76.46. Might rethink this one not something I really need and the Limby one will do fine.

nothing ever changes.

If someone put a new loco infront of you today for £115, people would be ripping their arms off, let alone £76, yet in 2015 it still generated several pages of Bachmann anti-price rise complants.

 

 

 

 

 

[adb968008]

On 09/05/2023 at 13:58, St. Simon said:

 

I don't believe Bachmann is a true share-holder company, not like Hornby at least, so I don't think that comes into it.

 

I dont know as Ive ever seen a happy Hornby shareholder.

its all cyclical. Make hay when the sunshines, use it in winter.

Hobbyists were making hay in the early 90’s, early 2000’s, early 2010’s and got a second wind during covid.

coincidentally the economy contracted in the mid90’s, late 2000’s, mid-2010’s, each occasion was when prices rose higher than average, but after a period of reluctance, stagnation and shelfware, there was eventually acceptance and prices moved on.

 

I think our current view of prices is being artificially skewed by two 00 gauge manufacturers, who are currently able to offer lower prices than the rest, but its not just Bachmann that is out there on price, they share the upper >£200 quadrant with Heljan and Hornby, the rest are hovering close to that upper right quadrant on price (or lowering the quality).

 

The saving grace is most are retooling and duplicates, which means theres plenty of cheaper options in the s/h market, or those who have bought already, they can give this round a miss.

 

Consumers have never had so much choice, so its not all doom and gloom, for the two at the lower end, enjoy it whilst you can, as the £200+ rrp loco isnt going away. If its an older tooling, someone may pick it off with a newer one.

 

 

Edited May 11, 2023 by adb968008

[97406]

The main advantage with Bachmann in my opinion is that you can buy their stuff off the shelf for a long time, whereas Accurascale (thus far) generally need to be preordered, though that approach is fine by me too. So far I have managed to scratch the Bachmann side to my Class 37 “itch” for a lot less than the RRP, so their approach is actually working for me. As mentioned by other posters on here we don’t want to see them stop producing stuff, so if it is working for them then I guess it’s OK.

Edited May 11, 2023 by 97406

[brushman47544]

If you take Bachmann's Mk1s, I seem to recall Bachmann saying that most if not all the original tooling has been renewed over the years because it was worn out. The most obvious sign is that the rooves are now smooth rather than having the seam lines. That has obviously had a cost, which presumably has been reflected in the on-going price rises for these coaches. Perhaps there have also been other minor improvements that are less obvious to the naked eye, but by and large the Mk1s are already pretty good and I would suggest adding lighting and having the option to produce them without the end steps that were removed in later years are the only changes that would be a real improvement. But would the costs of doing so be recovered through the inevitable additional price increase? Hornby added lighting to some of its Mk1s - I remember a 3- or 4-car BR(S) green "set" being available although sold separately. They sold but perhaps not well enough to encourage more like it. After all, you really only get the benefit of lighting if you run trains in the dark or close to it.

 

I do think we have to be realistic in our aspirations for continuous improvements because a certain point will be reached - if not already in some cases - where the majority will not be sufficiently interested and will happily buy what is already on offer without clamouring for more and better detailing. We on this forum may be willing but we make up up very small part of the overall market.

[Roy Langridge]

5 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Copied from the Bachmann class 43 thread…

 

nothing ever changes.

If someone put a new loco infront of you today for £115, people would be ripping their arms off, let alone £76, yet in 2015 it still generated several pages of Bachmann anti-price rise complants.

 

 

 

 

 

 

And those figures in themselves are interesting. According to the Bank of England figures, £110 in 2015 is the equivalent of £148 today.

 

That clearly shows prices are running ahead of UK inflation.

 

But then we have to look at other factors:

 

And for those that say "Ah but there are made in China", £110 in 2015 is the equivalent of £127.52 now.

 

And for those that say, "Ah, but you have to consider exchange rates" the USD/Yen was 6.19 at the start of 2015 and 6.95 now, and the GBP/USD was 1.55 in 2015 and 1.25. Using some basic (generous) figures and considering selling China - UK in dollars, China buying materials in USD etc. We can add about £20 for exchange rate variations over that period (and the real figure is probably less than that).

 

Therefore, a £110 loco in 2015 should be costing about £168 now or a 52% increase.

 

All of which means if we ignore the new highly detailed SFX type models today and compare like with like, the costs are not a million miles away from what they were in 2015.

 

What is also clear is that the increasing costs are running ahead of the increase in UK wages with the average wage only increasing by 8.8% between 2015 and 2023. 

 

So our models are becoming more expensive when compared with wages, but the increases are not without foundation.

 

Roy

[MikeParkin65]

14 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

And those figures in themselves are interesting. According to the Bank of England figures, £110 in 2015 is the equivalent of £148 today.

 

That clearly shows prices are running ahead of UK inflation.

 

But then we have to look at other factors:

 

And for those that say "Ah but there are made in China", £110 in 2015 is the equivalent of £127.52 now.

 

And for those that say, "Ah, but you have to consider exchange rates" the USD/Yen was 6.19 at the start of 2015 and 6.95 now, and the GBP/USD was 1.55 in 2015 and 1.25. Using some basic (generous) figures and considering selling China - UK in dollars, China buying materials in USD etc. We can add about £20 for exchange rate variations over that period (and the real figure is probably less than that).

 

Therefore, a £110 loco in 2015 should be costing about £168 now or a 52% increase.

 

All of which means if we ignore the new highly detailed SFX type models today and compare like with like, the costs are not a million miles away from what they were in 2015.

 

What is also clear is that the increasing costs are running ahead of the increase in UK wages with the average wage only increasing by 8.8% between 2015 and 2023. 

 

So our models are becoming more expensive when compared with wages, but the increases are not without foundation.

 

Roy

Plus we are being told production runs are smaller so the required profit margin need to be generated from potentially fewer sales. 

[Dunsignalling]

My take on prices is that, if it's an item I want, and think it is worth the asking price, I'll buy it, subject to the funds being available. That's not a problem at present because Hornby only get about 10% of what I used to spend with them. That's because little of what they've made of late is of personal interest. I've spent more on second-hand West Countries over the past few years than all their new releases combined.

 

Bachmann has never done much Southern stuff. My Blue-box 'staples' have been N class moguls, Ivatt tanks, BR Standards and most of the relatively few (green) diesels I own, Also (of course) their older Bulleids, and a fair-sized fleet of Mk1 coaches, plus loads of wagons! Regular spending but rarely too much in one go; were I to work it out, my total spend over the years has probably been a lot more than I think it is!

 

I wanted an additional N recently but couldn't find a new one other than the as-preserved version, which didn't really fit the bill. I spent £57 with Hatton's on a pre-owned example. Pre-owned yes; used most definitely not, I don't think it had even been out of the box!  It's an Exmouth Junction example, too, so I don't even need to renumber it. 😃

 

Most of my exposure to "current" pricing has therefore involved the "new boys", and the prototype choices and value-for-money on offer so far suits me just fine! Enough to keep me buying  but not so much as to outstrip my budget.

 

I have a suspicion, though, that the commercial structures of Bachmann and Hornby may make it very difficult for either to be competitive on both price and quality in OO, while making enough money. Hence their respective moves into OO9 and TT:120, perhaps?

 

John

Edited May 11, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[brushman47544]

2 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Plus we are being told production runs are smaller so the required profit margin need to be generated from potentially fewer sales. 

Which is why I think Bachmann, by producing only a couple of liveries at a time loses out compared to the newcomers, who appear to be able to have/maintain higher production runs overall split between more liveries at the same time.

[fezza]

I think the reality is manufacturers have realised a small group of late middle age  modellers will pay almost anything for very high fidelity models so that's where the money is. Cater for them and you will be safe.

 

That's not for me though. I've largely stopped buying new unless a product is absolutely essential for a personal layout project. I don't think I'm the only one.

 

 

[97406]

One of the 37s I have just bought had its price reduced from £244.95 to £208.20. It was further reduced to £190 by the store which is what I paid for this particular example. Read into that what you will. I've since seen it cheaper elsewhere and have one of the other ones on its way from them but hey, it's a great model nevertheless!

Edited May 12, 2023 by 97406

[ruggedpeak]

38 minutes ago, fezza said:

I think the reality is manufacturers have realised a small group of late middle age  modellers will pay almost anything for very high fidelity models so that's where the money is. Cater for them and you will be safe.

 

That's not for me though. I've largely stopped buying new unless a product is absolutely essential for a personal layout project. I don't think I'm the only one.

There is a segment group who are financially insulated from the economic conditions have large disposable/discretionary incomes and will be buying these, and this is the market Bachmann are targetting. Some SFX buyers will be hardcore modellers on lesser incomes, but I strongly suspect a significant segment is those for whom the cost of living crisis is just a phrase they keep hearing on the news. I am surprised the likes of Accura have not done the same thing and produced high end expensive versions of their locos to appeal to this market as one assumes the margins are higher and this end of the market is price inelastic (i.e. you can charge what you like) as long as you limit production volume. As stated above most SFX models sell out on pre-order, but if you sit around for a bit you can pick up non-SFX new Bachmann 37's and 47's at bargain prices for those of us for whom cost of living is an issue.

 

 

[rob D2]

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

There is a segment group who are financially insulated from the economic conditions have large disposable/discretionary incomes and will be buying these, and this is the market Bachmann are targetting. Some SFX buyers will be hardcore modellers on lesser incomes, but I strongly suspect a significant segment is those for whom the cost of living crisis is just a phrase they keep hearing on the news. I am surprised the likes of Accura have not done the same thing and produced high end expensive versions of their locos to appeal to this market as one assumes the margins are higher and this end of the market is price inelastic (i.e. you can charge what you like) as long as you limit production volume. As stated above most SFX models sell out on pre-order, but if you sit around for a bit you can pick up non-SFX new Bachmann 37's and 47's at bargain prices for those of us for whom cost of living is an issue.

 

 

I think your demographic you are describing only has Peter Waterman in it !

 

Unless people have retired on final salary pensions and the like , the only person I know not " squeezed " is a relative on 150k plus 

[Dunsignalling]

39 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

There is a segment group who are financially insulated from the economic conditions have large disposable/discretionary incomes and will be buying these, and this is the market Bachmann are targetting. Some SFX buyers will be hardcore modellers on lesser incomes, but I strongly suspect a significant segment is those for whom the cost of living crisis is just a phrase they keep hearing on the news. I am surprised the likes of Accura have not done the same thing and produced high end expensive versions of their locos to appeal to this market as one assumes the margins are higher and this end of the market is price inelastic (i.e. you can charge what you like) as long as you limit production volume. As stated above most SFX models sell out on pre-order, but if you sit around for a bit you can pick up non-SFX new Bachmann 37's and 47's at bargain prices for those of us for whom cost of living is an issue.

 

 

It will be way more cost-effective to make everything in one go, to a uniform standard, and avoid having to put some output through an extra production phase or two. That's why we are increasingly seeing new locos with speakers fitted whether they are needed or not. 

 

I once remember reading an analysis of the car industry that concluded (taking Ford UK as their example) that if all Escorts were made to the top Ghia specification, with only the choice of engine size and manual or auto transmission. rather than four or five trim levels. Less variation would increase output and they could sell for little more than the "one up from basic" L model, with a neutral effect on overall profit.

 

I do wonder if SFX might be substituted for Ghia in this idea! 

 

Modern luxury car production lines allow every car to be almost as bespoke as they were when all was done by hand, albeit at a price. However, I doubt that what is practical for Aston Martin or Bentley would be transferable to model locomotives at little more than 1% of the price.   

 

John

[fezza]

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

There is a segment group who are financially insulated from the economic conditions have large disposable/discretionary incomes and will be buying these, and this is the market Bachmann are targetting. Some SFX buyers will be hardcore modellers on lesser incomes, but I strongly suspect a significant segment is those for whom the cost of living crisis is just a phrase they keep hearing on the news. I am surprised the likes of Accura have not done the same thing and produced high end expensive versions of their locos to appeal to this market as one assumes the margins are higher and this end of the market is price inelastic (i.e. you can charge what you like) as long as you limit production volume. As stated above most SFX models sell out on pre-order, but if you sit around for a bit you can pick up non-SFX new Bachmann 37's and 47's at bargain prices for those of us for whom cost of living is an issue.

 

 

Yes, I agree. However I wonder how sustainable this is. I can't say I have suffered too much in the last twelve months but there are limits to what I will pay for toys.

 

This is partly because I get as much fun out of servicing and detailing old Lima models than just buying new stuff that I am scared to touch due to the cost. But it's also because I'd rather spend cash on beer, holidays and travelling by train than a few very expensive items that for me don't represent good value for money, however good they are.

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by fezza

[Dunsignalling]

33 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I think your demographic you are describing only has Peter Waterman in it !

 

Unless people have retired on final salary pensions and the like , the only person I know not " squeezed " is a relative on 150k plus 

My pensions total but a fraction of that, but the critical thing, I've found, is no longer having a mortgage to pay! Once shot of that millstone, it's possible to prioritise ones wants over much other expenditure. 

 

My washing machine had some rust developing on the casing, but it still works fine and I understand the controls🤪! If I were "house-proud" (or had a partner who was) it might well be down the tip with a shiny new "internet enabled" (why?) device taking its place. 

 

However, to me household appliances are tools and the kitchen is a workspace, tidy (usually) but not a showroom. A quick application of rust converter and mixing a bit of Humbrol to something like the correct shade has freed up enough for two or three new locos!  

 

John

Edited May 12, 2023 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

18 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

Plus we are being told production runs are smaller so the required profit margin need to be generated from potentially fewer sales. 

Thats a question in itself, why are smaller runs required ?

The hobby has been in rude health the last few years, the amounts of stuff made is incredible, so its not shrinking demand…

 

perhaps its the choice of supply ?

 

- Is China guiding towards certain trends (ie more locos less coaches or wagons ?)

 

or

 

is their capacity constraints in China ?

 

- fully understandable, its not just the UK that uses the Chinese model railway production line, weve a long waiting list, i’m sure others do too.. if you pay more do you jump the queue ?

 

or

is it duplication of toolings ?

 

if its the latter, then surely choosing popular prototypes that are more either unique or duplicates of popular older toolings, would increase the demand and hence spread across the price ?

 

I do wonder if Accurascale’s cherry picking of popular types is one reason their successful in keeping prices low ?, but for instance that logic doesnt flow between Accurascale and Bachmann 37 pricing… a 37 is a 37 afterall.

 

What is telling though is ebay.. popular ranges has a habit of ebay inflation, which hasnt happened to either 37 so far either… so maybe the demand is sated to the size of that supply, and perhaps the future may not be as popular?

Additionally the class 104 is unique. Yet for some reason its pricing is completely at adds with both the UK and the European market, and I would have thought demand for this would be quite good, indeed Rail’s recent email suggests the production run size has been increased (despite us being told units are not popular)… .. A/S certainly didnt seem to be complaining about the 89 sales at its launch, and that is at a higher price point too.

 

The difference between either 37 and both the above, is the 89/104 both havent been made before.

so maybe it is consumer demand afterall..?

but I put the case that uniqueness rather than duplication, because we moan, but we still want it and still pay…. In that case I want an Electrostar… I dont need another 33/40/42/58.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 12, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

19 hours ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

And those figures in themselves are interesting. According to the Bank of England figures, £110 in 2015 is the equivalent of £148 today.

 

That clearly shows prices are running ahead of UK inflation.

 

But then we have to look at other factors:

 

And for those that say "Ah but there are made in China", £110 in 2015 is the equivalent of £127.52 now.

 

And for those that say, "Ah, but you have to consider exchange rates" the USD/Yen was 6.19 at the start of 2015 and 6.95 now, and the GBP/USD was 1.55 in 2015 and 1.25. Using some basic (generous) figures and considering selling China - UK in dollars, China buying materials in USD etc. We can add about £20 for exchange rate variations over that period (and the real figure is probably less than that).

 

Therefore, a £110 loco in 2015 should be costing about £168 now or a 52% increase.

 

All of which means if we ignore the new highly detailed SFX type models today and compare like with like, the costs are not a million miles away from what they were in 2015.

 

What is also clear is that the increasing costs are running ahead of the increase in UK wages with the average wage only increasing by 8.8% between 2015 and 2023. 

 

So our models are becoming more expensive when compared with wages, but the increases are not without foundation.

 

Roy

And Kader were losing money  (lots of money) on every model they made and sold to a subsidiary  such as Bach   mann Europe.   And Bachmann Europe was selling models in Britain at very reasonable prices (under priced according to many in the trade).  

 

So Kader took the simple step of turning their factory output of model railway items into a profitable venture instead of doing what some of the owners wanted and making things like mobile 'phone parts instead of model railways.  That in turn  meant  that Bachmann Europe retail prices in the UK had to rise because the ex-factory price had been increased.

 

Maybe it's better to have more expensive models than none at all?  I suppose that really depends on whether or not you want to buy Bachamann British outline models?  But some of us do want to buy some of them and would miss some of their output if it no longer came onto the market..  You takes your choice and pays your money.

[TomScrut]

3 hours ago, adb968008 said:

In that case I want an Electrostar… I dont need another 33/40/42/58.

 

And that is an interesting thing. I'm sure it has been said plenty of times on here that MUs are too expensive.

 

Currently Hornby Azumas are £300 in TMCs sale (which seems to be becoming like the DFS sale, again maybe a sign of the times), knocked down from about £500 RRP. I have two Azumas, and two more Hitachi's on order with Hornby, all at over £400. I was happy to pay that for something pretty much essential on my layout, no chance as an impulse buy. So are MUs actually too expensive, or that those of us who what them will pay but there isn't enough of us?

 

Instead everyone seems to be wanting to retool locos that are already decent and we have models of.

[GordonC]

19 minutes ago, TomScrut said:

 

And that is an interesting thing. I'm sure it has been said plenty of times on here that MUs are too expensive.

 

Currently Hornby Azumas are £300 in TMCs sale (which seems to be becoming like the DFS sale, again maybe a sign of the times), knocked down from about £500 RRP. I have two Azumas, and two more Hitachi's on order with Hornby, all at over £400. I was happy to pay that for something pretty much essential on my layout, no chance as an impulse buy. So are MUs actually too expensive, or that those of us who what them will pay but there isn't enough of us?

 

Instead everyone seems to be wanting to retool locos that are already decent and we have models of.

 

I think thats a difficult question to answer - whats a 'fair' price for an Azuma? I dont see it being worth £100 per vehicle for the detail and complexity of that tooling. If Accurascale can make the Mk5 TPE sets at £225 then surely it must be very possible to make MU's cheaper than they are from most manufacturers. MUs are obviously more complex, more vehicle bodyshells to tool up, but equally more known production quantities of selling complete trains in a set. Accurascale will be selling more of their products directly so will keep a larger chunk of retailer margin than those being sold through shops.

 

I think the prices are being jacked up to sell initially as high as possible then with scope to clear stock at a lower price. Whether they do end up in the bargain bin will depend on production quantities compared to demand. There will still be money being made at £300 for the Azuma, but obviously not as much and selling a whole batch at that may not be enough return to encourage tooling up of new models.

[fezza]

I remember we were all told 0 gauge locomotives had to cost at least £500 for a manufacturer to make a profit on such complex detailed things.

 

Then along came Dapol and a decade on we have the same locomotives for less than £200.

 

I would encourage people to treat manufacturer statements about what is and what isn't profitable with healthy scepticism. Bachmann's toy trains are expensive because they've found a small group of consumers who will pay the very high prices. Production costs are a factor, but only part of the story.

 

Pay your money and take your choice, but I don't think it's healthy for children to go into model shops and see mass produced 00 gauge trains that cost more than their Dad's weekly wage. That won't encourage broad interest in the hobby. Don't be surprised if they get into Train Sims instead or just move away from railways altogether.