Bachmann Summer 2023 Announcements

[woodenhead]

It will be interesting to see if Accurascale do develop a HST and how that compares with the Hornby pricing, though I would imagine Hornby have plenty of scope to challenge any competition on price and quality given it has so many HST toolings to choose from which may affect whether Accurascale go for it and how they would price it.  This is only suggested because of their latest appointment and people second guessing it means a HST will be in development soon.

 

But given the current price of a multiple unit from Bachmann, Hornby or Heljan, realistically the only company that could make a full 6 car Trans Pennine class 124 under £500 may be Accurascale.

[woodenhead]

6 minutes ago, fezza said:

Pay your money and take your choice, but I don't think it's healthy for children to go into model shops and see mass produced 00 gauge trains that cost more than their Dad's weekly wage. That won't encourage broad interest in the hobby. Don't be surprised if they get into Train Sims instead or just move away from railways altogether.

I think you are imagining a different time, I don't think any hobby is cheap these days.

 

The point of many hobbies is that they are a choice, they are based on having disposable income to use on such frivolities and not a must have.  So anyone producing an item for a hobby can charge what the market will stand and these prices are clearly within what the market will stand else they would not sell.

 

For those who wish to spend less on the hobby there is the secondhand market which is very healthy and as you yourself know there are plenty of 'good enough' Lima models which a better suited anyway to younger people getting into the hobby than expensive fragile high detail things at the price point you are referring to.

[Type 2]

Unless manufacturers have the exact same overheads and are making the exact same model then we can't say one company is overcharging over the other.  I worked for a company who made various lines, in our own factory, each 'brand' had to produce a full breakdown on each new product/re-run and effectively bid for a manufacturing slot.  Maybe Bachmann are like that hence their pricing structure?  We don't know so shouldn't be saying they are overcharging

 

11 minutes ago, fezza said:

I would encourage people to treat manufacturer statements about what is and what isn't profitable with healthy scepticism. Bachmann's toy trains are expensive because they've found a small group of consumers who will pay the very high prices. Production costs are a factor, but only part of the story.

 Can you prove that?

 

12 minutes ago, fezza said:

Pay your money and take your choice, but I don't think it's healthy for children to go into model shops and see mass produced 00 gauge trains that cost more than their Dad's weekly wage. That won't encourage broad interest in the hobby. Don't be surprised if they get into Train Sims instead or just move away from railways altogether.

 

That makes no sense.  Do you move away from eating food because the price for groceries is high?  No, you cut your cloth, and only buy what you can afford. 

 

The same goes with model railways.  When I was young I used to ogle the latest Hornby and Lima products in the model shop, my dad couldn't afford them even back then, so I ended up with a cheap 2nd hand model, that done the exact same job.  And those 2nd hand models provided me with years of entertainment.

 

Nearly 50 years later I'm still as enthusiastic as I was.

 

Things cost what they cost, because its what they cost.  All this moaning about prices is quite embarrassing.

[The Stationmaster]

29 minutes ago, fezza said:

I remember we were all told 0 gauge locomotives had to cost at least £500 for a manufacturer to make a profit on such complex detailed things.

 

Then along came Dapol and a decade on we have the same locomotives for less than £200.

 

I would encourage people to treat manufacturer statements about what is and what isn't profitable with healthy scepticism. Bachmann's toy trains are expensive because they've found a small group of consumers who will pay the very high prices. Production costs are a factor, but only part of the story.

 

Pay your money and take your choice, but I don't think it's healthy for children to go into model shops and see mass produced 00 gauge trains that cost more than their Dad's weekly wage. That won't encourage broad interest in the hobby. Don't be surprised if they get into Train Sims instead or just move away from railways altogether.

The average weekly wage in Briatin in February 2023, according to the ONS, were £638 for total pay and £596 for regular pay.  These are obviously averages and the median figure might well have been very different,  And it was  - as further delving in ONS land shows that the median earnings for employees in Britain in March 2023 was £2,200 per month so =c.£550 per week .

 

As regards 'what's a fair price? the simple answer is that we will all have varying opinions.  For example I think that most mobile devices are grossly over priced and a waste of money because all I want one to do is make/receive 'phone calls - but obviously I'm in a minority judging by the number of people who have bought such things'.  I very rarely drink alcohol but on Mothering Sunday when we were out at lunch I paid £55 for a bottle of sparkling wine and I thought that it wasn't too bad value for the money although it should really have been about £10-15 cheaper to have been excellent value for money (the offspring paid for the meal - and that was definitely not good value for money because presentation clearly outweighed culinary skill and taste),  

 

As I said we all have our own ideas of what represents good value for money and 'cheap' isn't necessarily good value for money.

Edited May 12, 2023 by The Stationmaster

[AY Mod]

47 minutes ago, Type 2 said:

Things cost what they cost, because its what they cost.  All this moaning about prices is quite embarrassing.

 

Completely agree so I'll place a request for contributors to not keep going over the same old ground every time. If they do I'll just remove access to the topic.

[phil-b259]

On 09/05/2023 at 13:58, St. Simon said:

 

Hi,

 

I don't believe Bachmann is a true share-holder company, not like Hornby at least, so I don't think that comes into it.

 

 

You are rather forgetting that Bachmann is not a company in its own right ! It might not have shareholders but people forget it is in fact only a tiny bit of a huge conglomerate called Kadder*

 

Said conglomerate will, as with shareholders demand that each and every individual part is making good profits for the whole.

 

Its also a fact that unlike every other RTR company, because Kadder are a Chinese company they also are allowed by Chinese law** to own a large number of model / toy manufacturing factories - and Bachmann will be obliged to use these in house facilities regardless of how costly they may be - because that boosts the profits being declared by the division of Kadder.

 

In fact a few years ago there was a rumour that the manufacturing division of Kadder was generating losses so the toy division of Kadder (which includes Bachmann as one of its subdivsions) had to pay more for its product which in turn meant the prices charged to the consumer had to rise.

 

There was also another rumour which alledged that it was the toy division of Kadder as a whole that was making a loss and increasing the amount of profit returned by the Bachmann subdivision was seen as a easy way of returning the toy division back to profit without harming sales significantly (unlike some of the other brands which fall under the toys division).

 

Whether these rumours are true or not - what they do show is that attempts to try and claim Bachmann are going to be immune from the pleasures Hornby have are false - they both are very much influenced outsiders who have far more of a say over the direction of the group than many realise.

 

* Just like B&Q, Screwfix Castorama and Brico Dépôt are not companies in their own right, they are subdivisions of Kingfisher - yet if you ask the public who Kingfisher are most of the public won't have a clue.

 

** Chinese law dictates that no foreign business is permitted to own ANY business in China. This is to ensure that there can be no opposition to the rule of the Chinese Communist Party nor can any business be used to 'infect' workers with western ideas of democracy or human rights. Even the likes of Apple do not own a single asset inside China! Instead what happens is that a firm like Apple will form a 'partnership' with a Chinese owned, Chinese run company to produce products for them. That model ensures that the Communist Party retains total control while at the same time allowing overseas companies to utilise the Chinese workforce and production capability thereby making products cheaper for western consumers.

 

 

[MikeParkin65]

In my experience Bachmann make cracking models to consistently high standards (in terms of attention to detail, quality of finish and robustness in a working layout scenario) and thats something I'm prepared to pay a premium for. The release schedule of the past 24 months has been well managed to both build anticipation yet still be deliverable. I trust  Bachmann to produce a quality model  - they are one of only 2 manufacturers where I am happy to pre order and dont need to see the model 'in the flesh' before committing. 

[steve1023]

4 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

In my experience Bachmann make cracking models to consistently high standards (in terms of attention to detail, quality of finish and robustness in a working layout scenario) and thats something I'm prepared to pay a premium for. The release schedule of the past 24 months has been well managed to both build anticipation yet still be deliverable. I trust  Bachmann to produce a quality model  - they are one of only 2 manufacturers where I am happy to pre order and dont need to see the model 'in the flesh' before committing. 

Absolutely agree with this, but pressing a button to agree just didn't seem right.

[rob D2]

I agree to a point, but I haven’t seen a accurascale diesel, or a cavelex or even a revolution yet.

 

Mine were never as good or quiet runners as the Hornby 31+ 60. The current 20 is - although I only have that because it was discounted below £130.

 

The retool of the 37 was good, but not good enough. Really thick windows , rubbish snowplough , poor roof fan and still missing a trick with DCC access not requiring body removal .Not good enough for £200.

 

The 47 is also good,but they missed the opportunity to get rid of those awful front bufferbeam footsteps amongst other bits. Lazy and again not good enough for top end prices .

[younGGuns7]

I am not a purist and TBH I am not competent to hack my way through a decent representation of a model to modify the fineries. So from my perspective I think I am lucky that Bachmann and AS are pushing boundaries. Whilst our Danish mates have many critics the Hymek isn’t that bad, yes it can be improved and also I have D15 from TMC and to me it’s good others may disagree but I am happy with this representation. We cannot also forget Dapol’s for their WR hydraulics these are good and again can now be improved as we move into another era of fidelity, we do need to think ourselves lucky that we have a hobby where we are progressing and TBH it is a rather inclusive hobby. 

[97406]

6 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I agree to a point, but I haven’t seen a accurascale diesel, or a cavelex or even a revolution yet.

 

Mine were never as good or quiet runners as the Hornby 31+ 60. The current 20 is - although I only have that because it was discounted below £130.

 

The retool of the 37 was good, but not good enough. Really thick windows , rubbish snowplough , poor roof fan and still missing a trick with DCC access not requiring body removal .Not good enough for £200.

 

The 47 is also good,but they missed the opportunity to get rid of those awful front bufferbeam footsteps amongst other bits. Lazy and again not good enough for top end prices .

 

Yes, this, absolutely! Whilst the new 37 (for instance) is an excellent model, there are still a number of things that it requires to have done to it to get it up to scratch. This comes with the risk of damaging something in the process on the model after the initial outlay. As other manufacturers have shown, many of the errors in the latest Bachmann models can be avoided with good design, so that is my beef. Not the RRP per se, but the imperfections that you get with it. 

[shunny]

When it comes to pricing many factors affect the end figure, speaking to my retailer for example the profit margins are not the same for each manufacturer and can vary quiet a bit and Direct selling has a big impact. Every Bachmann models is only sold via retailer network so has to have their margin in price. Selling even 50% of your products direct means prices can be lower. My local shop really appreciate that Bachmann only sell through shops and brings customers through the door.

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

You are rather forgetting that Bachmann is not a company in its own right ! It might not have shareholders but people forget it is in fact only a tiny bit of a huge conglomerate called Kadder*

 

Said conglomerate will, as with shareholders demand that each and every individual part is making good profits for the whole.

 

Its also a fact that unlike every other RTR company, because Kadder are a Chinese company they also are allowed by Chinese law** to own a large number of model / toy manufacturing factories - and Bachmann will be obliged to use these in house facilities regardless of how costly they may be - because that boosts the profits being declared by the division of Kadder.

 

 

Sorry to go slightly Ot but I do wish oe people commenting ina ny way on this sort ot thing will check the readily available facts before saying anything.

 

1. Bachmann Europe is a UK registered company limited by shares (the official term for a shareholder owned  UK registered company).  The company has four Directors all of whom are British. (that includes two Hong Kong residents holding British nationality)

2. It has 2,050,000 issued £1 shares which are all fully paid up.  There are no unissued shares.

3.  At the last full declaration I can find (which is now out-of-date in respect of at least one shareholder)  it had three shareholders with the overwhelming majority owned at that time (June 2016) by Kader Holdings.  

4. As a UK registered company Bachmann Europe is required to submit accounts each year to a legally prescribed level of detail.  These accounts are fully available for examination on the internet by anyone who cares, or bothers, to look at them.

5.  Kader Holdings is a company registered outside the UK but the Hong Kong registered parts of Kader are a;so required under HK law to submit annual accounts and these too are available on the 'net for anyone who wants to look at them.

6. Kader - or rather parts thereof - also have businesses registered in the West Indies.  As is i usual for businesses registered there it is not quite so simple to see their accounts online but much of the information concerning those companies etc is reported in the Hong Kong accounts.

 

If I can look at all that information that means anyone else with a computer can do the same and this thread could get back on track on the 2023 announcements

[crossforth]

I can't say there was much that interested me in the latest announcements apart from the 144 in WY Metro livery however due to the ever worsening cost of living crisis, I can't say I can afford one.

 

Sadly with rising costs, manufacturers have put their prices up so that they can keep making a profit and keep making models but it is driving those of us who can't afford new models out of the hobby.

 

All being well, one day I will return to buying new but for now it has lead me to learn to paint models myself for cheapness.

 

I know it's the same old ground but maybe one day the manufacturers will find a solution to bring the cost down to allow the common man to enjoy the hobby once more.

 

Bachmann are a super manufacturer with high standards but I am also a tad scared I'd break their models these days.

 

Either way, theirs my two pence with my freedom of speech power 😁

 

God bless

[The Stationmaster]

To be honest there s not much to interest me in the new Bachmann announcement although there are cpouple of possibilities but ine of them would simply be an upgrade of an existing model with features I don't need as I'm niot in DCC land.  There are a couple of faint possibilities and the narrow gauge stuff is a dreadful temptation but way off beam to I won't necessarily go there.

 

But if there was anything I really wanted in there I'd gird my loins, sell off a lot of surplus stuff and go for it because it might noit be there again for some years.  Prices are what they are so let's stop moaning about and concentrate in the models and what they offer or can. be alttered to offer (that footbridge has some interesting features so could it be slightly modified to deal with an omission and repainted?).

[Covkid]

3 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

To be honest there s not much to interest me in the new Bachmann announcement although there are cpouple of possibilities but ine of them would simply be an upgrade of an existing model with features I don't need as I'm niot in DCC land.  There are a couple of faint possibilities and the narrow gauge stuff is a dreadful temptation but way off beam to I won't necessarily go there.

 

But if there was anything I really wanted in there I'd gird my loins, sell off a lot of surplus stuff and go for it because it might noit be there again for some years.  Prices are what they are so let's stop moaning about and concentrate in the models and what they offer or can. be alttered to offer (that footbridge has some interesting features so could it be slightly modified to deal with an omission and repainted?).

 

That is pretty much the case for me too. Sure those 40s look tasty enough with more comprehensive lighting, but the windscreens still put me off. Might have to have a go at my Mk2 pair instead of these Mk2as.

 

As you say Mike, if something is desired enough there will be means of raising funds. I am about to embark on a serious selling spree on a well known auction site.

[jjb1970]

I find Bachmann is probably my favourite British outline manufacturer for the simple reasons that they make a consistently good quality product which I can buy without getting involved in pre-ordering and without the drama of some other manufacturers. They are what they are, they're not pretending to be our best friend or anything other than a manufacturer which provides a product in order to make a profit, personally I like that straightforwardness and lack of drama. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by jjb1970

[No Decorum]

20 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I find Bachmann is probably my favourite British outline manufacturer for the simple reasons that they make a consistently good quality product which I can buy without getting involved in pre-ordering and without the drama of some other manufacturers. They are what they are, they're not pretending to be our best friend or anything other than a manufacturer which provides a product in order to make a profit, personally I like that straightforwardness and lack of drama. 

Like every manufacturer, Bachmann occasionally gets something wrong. However, I find Bachmann the most reliable of manufactuers. In particular, no-one else can match the finish of the models. My ancient little Bachmann Manor is beautifully finished. It might not be such a good runner as newer models but a good cleaning and lubricating does wonders. Yes, Bachmann is out to make a profit but the folks there are generally very enthusiastic and friendly.

[adb968008]

I probably still have more Bachmann than any other model.

 

its a modellers model.

 

in the cabinet at Quorn Bachmann event last weekend..

 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I probably still have more Bachmann than any other model.

 

its a modellers model.

 

in the cabinet at Quorn Bachmann event last weekend..

 

 

 

I saw one in that livery at Westbury on Monday in a state that would challenge even the most expert of expert model weatherers.

[HExpressD]

11 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I probably still have more Bachmann than any other model.

 

its a modellers model.

 

in the cabinet at Quorn Bachmann event last weekend..

 

 

 

Right, that's it, I've made up my mind and I'm getting one...

 

The Baguley-Drewry in green that is...

[rob D2]

“ the modellers model “. You might want to TM that before they nick it !

Has the 70 got a better mechanism now ? iIRC there were complaints involving rice pudding skin and lack of traction 

[No Decorum]

1 hour ago, HExpressD said:

Right, that's it, I've made up my mind and I'm getting one...

 

The Baguley-Drewry in green that is...

Yep. The little diesels caught my eye too! After all, 25s have been done before.

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, rob D2 said:

“ the modellers model “. You might want to TM that before they nick it !

 

To me it is.

They do a lot of research. The technical details and liveries are usually dead on. If they make mistakes they are pretty good at resolving it.

Behind that renumbering is a doddle, often the models are componentised so easy to dismantle, rebuild as different versions.

 

Their spare parts are second to none.

 

whilst admittedly price is an issue sometimes, the collectors seconds day can turn up some real niceties like these 3 choppers awaiting a new number at £80 a piece last weekend.

 

Add to that the club lounge, members day, detailed magazine.

The totality of it all no one else touches.

And just an hour later…

 

 

any guesses from the clue what the Eastfield 20 will become ?

Edited May 25, 2023 by adb968008

[TomScrut]

9 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Has the 70 got a better mechanism now ? iIRC there were complaints involving rice pudding skin and lack of traction 

 

Unsure if there's an issue with the mechanism. More that they don't weigh very much. I think the only real solution to that is having a fully cast chassis, which I don't think would be too bad on a 70 as there's not loads of detail on the underframe IIRC.

 

My 70s struggle with 10 MRAs (with loads), my new shape Bachmann 37 manages them, Dapol 68, Hattons 66 and AS 37 boss them.