Hornby Magazine/Dapol Stove R .

[finelines]

I announced yesterday that I wasn’t going to post on this thread, but I find my name in the messages, so I feel I should comment.

 

Reading this, there is no hope for us little traders. Most of you don’t really don’t want us to produce what you froth about, you want it rtr. All the kit manufacturers are taking a battering from the big boys. The loss of particular prototypes that sell well could wipe them out, and if this is how you make your living, it’s down the dole. My N gauge range became unviable after the loss of our most popular kit, the Utility Van. Every time I chose a prototype to replace it, it was announced rtr.

 

As somebody who suffers from depression I sometimes feel like stopping taking my heart pills, have a stroke, become a burden on the state and drop of my perch!

 

Luckily, however I am an optimist and every day I wake up thinking today’s the day that my luck has come up in the lottery of life and something nice will happen, by bed time I usually know it wasn’t!

 

Roger

 

Ps please talk to me on Small traders even if only to say hello like in older RMwebs. They all start with Come Froth with me.

 

 

[cctransuk]

Thank you for that !!

 

In the original version of my most recent (censored) posting on this subject I had included the phrase "This is not a kit, at a kit price, where the finescale brigade routinely replace the chassis with etched components. It is a premium-priced, exclusive model where accuracy has been a major selling point".

 

I was asked by the list-owner to remove the reference to accuracy having been a major selling point, which I did.

 

However, since the subject of Hornby Magazine's reference to "total accuracy" and "fully correct for 4mm scale" has been raised by others, I feel justified in reinstating my comment.

 

If one raises expectations then one should stick to that commitment, no matter what.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Andy Y]

I am no longer surprised by how unpleasant and critical some people within the hobby can be.

[Oldddudders]

Reality check - who is promoting this product? Is it Hornby Magazine? Remind me - with a title like that who is this publication probably aimed at? I suggest that it makes its living from Dads and lads, not from the expert modellers in this thread who appear the most concerned that this RTR model falls short of their expectations. Since when did such competent modellers rely upon RTR LEs?

 

It is indeed a great shame that a highly-respected Smaller Supplier is watching all his ideas snapped up by bigger fry, and in this case with an "imperfect" result - i.e. compared to that which those expert modellers, and maybe some others, would probably have achieved with his kit, had it come to market. I don't have a clever answer to his unenviable dilemma.

 

But please do not let us berate the Dads & lads magazine for attempting to provide something new and exciting to so many of us - those experts apparently included!

[RCAR6015]

Lets hope that the saving grace of this model will be in its overall livery application. By way of accurate colour rendition, fine lining where applicable and an acceptable colour of vehicle running numbers and insignia.

As previously mentioned the quality of passenger rolling stock released over the last 2/3 months has raised our expectations. Can Dapol deliver to the quality that we have had from Modelzone / Bachmann with the Mk 1 T.P.O and Hornby with the Hawkesworth range?

[spamcan61]

Reality check - who is promoting this product? Is it Hornby Magazine? Remind me - with a title like that who is this publication probably aimed at? I suggest that it makes its living from Dads and lads, not from the expert modellers in this thread who appear the most concerned that this RTR model falls short of their expectations. Since when did such competent modellers rely upon RTR LEs?

 

I would agree with your viewpoint 100% - if HM hadn't used phrases quoted above like "a model which is fully correct for 4mm scale." - I'm struggling to see how that phrase could be applied to any OO model anyway, but that's an old, old debate!

 

P.S. for the avoidance of doubt I'm very much an OO modeller.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Just on a lighter note, I believe this is the first full-on 'bar fight' we've had on something that wasn't a diesel or electric loco. History in the making!

 

Dave.

[7013]

Is it a full on scale model or a general RTR wagon, I suspect until someone throws one out of the pram and looks at the results we will not know. I am sure HM are looking on with interest at the 'debating' that been going on, (I was corrected about 0.5mm), however when I did maths the difference between 12 and 14 was 2, never mind I stand corrected; with my eyesight I could not even see 0.5 mm without a magnifying glass!

HM or Dapol have made some mistakes with this that have been pointed out and debated to the enth degree, the fact is, as Mike Wild also pointed out it is too late to change those mistakes, The old adage 'If it looks right' could be applied and to all but the fine scale modelers I am sure this will apply. I am sure they will sell out pretty quick and the fettling, bodging and tinkering folk will customise theirs to their satisfaction. However I know its a cliche but if you dont likeit nobody is forcing you to buy it,

[Mod3]

to the admin teams knowledge no-one has been forced to buy the model

 

Gentlemen - I believe this still applies

[Bob Reid]

Bob,

 

No one had announced a rival model but once Hornby mag went public Roger Chivers (finelines) stated that he was in the process of developing a plastic kit, which he has now stopped.

 

Judging by the quality of his exisiting work, I think we could have expected this kit to have produced a top notch model.

I think some people are a bit put out because the Hornby model has put a stop to this whilst also (in their opinion) failing to reach a similar (expected) standard........

 

Many thanks for taking the time to explain Brian.

[Baby Deltic]

I'm looking forward to getting my mitts on the three I've ordered, errors or not. Painting the wheels black will hide their proportions anyway. Once the weathering airbrush has been over them, and they are put in a consist with other van's no-one will even notice the wheel size.

[Pennine MC]

...It is good that those who know inform others like me of the potential discrepancies, it is up to the individual then if they feel they can live (in a modelling sense) with them.

 

Indeed, despite some of the unfortunate knee-jerk reactions to criticism of any sort, it isn't a bad thing per se. As Andrew says, it enables a lot of folk to make their own judgments - as to whether they accept an error, try to correct it themselves or make the decision not to buy.

 

Note this is a general observation, about a wider principle which I wouldnt like to think is at stake because of this thread.

[60B]

I'm looking forward to getting my mitts on the three I've ordered, errors or not. Painting the wheels black will hide their proportions anyway. Once the weathering airbrush has been over them, and they are put in a consist with other van's no-one will even notice the wheel size.

 

It is one of those errors that can be hidden and best left alone and no one will notice (hopefully).

[coachmann]

I realise that some would have preferred the brake shoes to be mounted in line with the wheels, but with a view towards total accuracy we decided against this in favour of a model which is fully correct for 4mm scale.

With reference to placement of brakeshoes, talking of "fully correct for 4mm scale" and "total accuracy" , sits awkwardly with the fact that underscale 12mm wheels are on the model instead of the correct 14mm coach wheels.

 

However, it is accademic now. At least 'Hornby Magazine' has got me interested in buying a vehicle I had not previously considered. Those people wanting their LMS 6-wheel PBV to run on 00, EM or P4 track with scale size wheels can always use their modelling abilities to build a new underframe, in fact such a course of action would probably be deemed necessary for P4 anyway.

 

Larry

[Guest Max Stafford]

As has been better put elsewhere, the error perhaps shouldn't have happened but it did and can't now be undone except at what is currently a prohibitive cost I imagine.

If you can live with it fair enough. If you can't, also fair enough. It's entirely the call of the individual whether they can or cannot accept this compromise.

I for one shall do so as tucked away in a fairly fast moving consist having been ruthlessly assaulted by my airbrush, I'm sure it will blend in regardless. I still have my Comet kit standing by to satisfy my more finescale urges and will enjoy the challenge of getting the upper half of the kit to the standards of the HM model and will even fit 14mm wheelsets!

 

Enjoy your modelling guys, we're not here long enough to waste any of our time falling out over stuff like this!

 

Dave.

[Charlie]

Have to say, it comes to something when people argue over 2mm in a scale that's accepted as being incorrect anyway. And to be honest, who's gonna notice if something's 1mm to long/short to the left or right when it's running round a track anyway?

 

Just hope there's some left when I can order one...

[orcadian]

As has been better put elsewhere, the error perhaps shouldn't have happened but it did and can't now be undone except at what is currently a prohibitive cost I imagine.

 

 

Enjoy your modelling guys, we're not here long enough to waste any of our time falling out over stuff like this!

 

Dave.

 

 

Well said, Dave, in both these sentences! 2.5mm is one tenth of an inch and I certainly can't estimate lengths to that accuracy without using a ruler, in a simple straight line, never mind the diameter of a rotating wheel which is usually more than 6 feet away somewhere on the layout!

 

My two HM/Dapol Stoves will be somewhere in my two parcels/van rakes, whether or not they were ever used on the Thanet coast, and will be far better than I could make them or paint them from a kit!

 

Yes, I can understand kit-producers frustrations when their future ideas appear as someone else's RTR, but surely those modellers who want to build a totally accurate model for themselves would still like to have a very good kit available, wouldn't they? A 'perfect' RTR item probably would spoil the sales potential of a kit, but doesn't a 'flawed' item still leave a viable market for a kit?

[Captain Kernow]

I heard about this thread at Blackburn, but have only had the chance to read it this evening.

 

I must confess to being disappointed about the wheel diameter, but as with the ex-Lima and more recent Hornby CCTs that I've done a chassis re-build on, I will see what can be done about the wheels on the two Stove 'R's that I will order. I doubt that I'll be happy with the 12mm wheels, even for the OO one, but good luck to those that don't mind, after all, it's a personal choice for your own layout at the end of the day.

 

Plus, it certainly passes the Captain's 'Black 5' test - 'if it looks like a Black 5, the chances are it is a Black 5'... this model certainly looks like a Stove 'R'....

[Butler Henderson]

Think the issue over things like being 2mm out is whether the thing looks right at the end of the day. It is a scale half a foot which many will pick up on without needing to measure it, others will not; afterall a lot of people thought Bachmann first attempt at a 37 was okay.

[coachmann]

Well said, Dave, in both these sentences! 2.5mm is one tenth of an inch

On a 4mm scale model, 2.5mm represents around 7½ inches on the real thing, a definite biggie.

 

May I just add that berating "scale modellers" because they strive to get things right is not in anyones interests. Some on here have passed on their years of experiences and tried to encourage others to look beyond the box and do a little more for themselves. Yes, they get tetchy when someone makes excuses for a manufacturers mistakes, but that is the nature of things. It is worth bearing in mind that people have been working behind the scenes for years and without their input and willingness to assist manufacturers, plastic RTR would not be where it is today.

[finelines]

Thank you for the PM's I've received. The answers are probably more appropriate to the smaller traders, so I will try to write a post tomorrow.

 

Roger

[iak]

On a 4mm scale model, 2.5mm represents around 7½ inches on the real thing, a definite biggie.

 

May I just add that berating "scale modellers" because they strive to get things right is not in anyones interests. Some on here have passed on their years of experiences and tried to encourage others to look beyond the box and do a little more for themselves. Yes, they get tetchy when someone makes excuses for a manufacturers mistakes, but that is the nature of things. It is worth bearing in mind that people have been working behind the scenes for years and without their input and willingness to assist manufacturers, plastic RTR would not be where it is today.

 

Spot on Coach... B)

 

The gaff has been made and some of us will be taking a scalpel and such to the beastie, such is life

Lets all chill with a port and some Stilton guys

[7013]

Well put coachman and I am sure I echo others when I read your postings in awe of your knowledge. It is wrong to berate people for thier stance on this, as I and others have in many ways stated we all base our opinions and decisions on our expectations, therefore it is right that those who model in finescale (and I have the utmost admiration for their skills and patience) should expect something approaching or what can be converted to their standard. Whereas general modellers like myself who apply the 'Black5' test are just as happy, mine will sit in a rake and to me will be a wonderful addition to my layout

In all debates like this, and this one has been pretty fiery at times we inevetibly reach acquiecence, the last few posts appear to confirm this, but to stifle good open honest debate would be self defeating, I for one have learned a huge amount about the Stove R, how much of it will be retained as relevant depends on my desire to change the model (if I indeed do), but at least I have been able to access the knowledge and thoughts of others on this subject.

[Flood]

I've been reading this thread for a while and I will try to be as polite as possible with my response.

 

In the past I have wondered about some of the comments made towards other models: the roof profile was incorrect, the tumblehome was the wrong angle etc etc and I did not let these factors bother me too much as to whether I bought the model or not. In the end a manufacturer had made a model far better than I could.

 

This said I am surprised that the Stove R has got to virtual production stage with 12mm diameter wheels. Anyone who says 2mm diameter is not much should compare a Lima BR1 bogie with 12mm wheels to a Bachmann BR1 bogie with 14mm wheels (I would have a photo to show you but my camera battery is flat).

 

This to me is still not the real issue, I have fitted 14mm wheels to a Lima CCT in the past without replacing the chassis (I merely moved the guide holes for the axles). It may well not be that correct but it "looks better" to me. No, the real issue is how the item was researched extensively but the diameter of the wheels managed to be incorrect. It is not for me to comment on the research performed, all I will say is that if I buy a full size car with 17" diameter wheels I expect them to be 17" diameter, not 15" diameter.

 

I would have thought that wheel diameter went along with length, width and height as one of the first dimensions to note.

[manxman]

I have become totally bored with all the carping critical remarks about not only the Stove R but also many other models. If those who are so critical (and often rude) can produce a better model to sell at a similar price to those of us who can't make one ourselves let them do so.

As for me, my order is in the post.